Golf digest top 100 2020

blue note · 25-05-2020 10:37am #1

I'm surprised not to have seen a post on this yet. I regard this as the top 100, probably because they were the first to really do it. But really it's as meaningful(less) as any others. Still though they're a little bit of fun.

One thing I was surprised at was seeing carlow so far back. They seem to have been drifting for a while now seeing as how they've just dropped down two places. I played it in January and was very impressed.

I still haven't played any of the real top courses. But I do have a voucher for Portmarnock links, so that'll be my top rated whenever I get to use it.

https://www.irishgolfdesk.com/news-files/2020/5/22/golf-digest-ireland-top-100-ranked-golf-courses-2020

FixdePitchmark · 25-05-2020 11:38am

I've played 15 of the top 20 - big gap having not played - Royal Portrush.
Must sort out soon.

A new one - and one I realistically will never play is, The Golf Course at Adare Manor. Kind of first time, to have a course that you know, you can't even play - new to Ireland. I don't even want to play it.

This concept is a sad development (for me) - the top courses were/are getting more and more illusive and expensive. Following that American route of price Trumps all else. To be honest I hate that fake resort feel - caddies and 5 star pro shops with logos on everything chasing the yank book. When you turn up (local/Irish/GUI) - there is almost an embarrassment in all parties at the show, put on for the yanks.

Rory McIlroy put it well recently saying he preferred the casual feel of Irish golf versus US golf. The No Laying Up guys have been critical of what has happened at top resorts in their own country. They love the feel of Irish golf (but not paying the green fees makes that easy

)

I love the feel of real Irish golf - to be honest, some of these top places are leaving behind the unique selling point and brilliance we have in golf here. You can play with anyone from an unemployed musician to a high court judge.

Sure leave them off - we can typically play these places in our own time , but increasingly - off mats , short courses, mid winter and an almost contemptuous atmosphere as you try get a tee time off some of them.

To name a few prices at present.

Lahinch €240
Portmarnock €250
Royal Portrush £240
Ballybunion €250
Adare €395

Maybe Corona will change things ?

SEORG · 25-05-2020 11:52am

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

I've played 15 of the top 20 - big gap having not played - Royal Portrush.
Must sort out soon.

A new one - and one I realistically will never play is, The Golf Course at Adare Manor. Kind of first time, to have a course that you know, you can't even play - new to Ireland. I don't even want to play it.

This concept is a sad development (for me) - the top courses were/are getting more and more illusive and expensive. Following that American route of price Trumps all else. To be honest I hate that fake resort feel - caddies and 5 star pro shops with logos on everything chasing the yank book. When you turn up (local/Irish/GUI) - there is almost an embarrassment in all parties at the show, put on for the yanks.

Rory McIlroy put it well recently saying he preferred the casual feel of Irish golf versus US golf. The No Laying Up guys have been critical of what has happened at top resorts in their own country. They love the feel of Irish golf (but not paying the green fees makes that easy )

I love the feel of real Irish golf - to be honest, some of these top places are leaving behind the unique selling point and brilliance we have in golf here. You can play with anyone from an unemployed musician to a high court judge.

Sure leave them off - we can typically play these places in our own time , but increasingly - off mats , short courses, mid winter and an almost contemptuous atmosphere as you try get a tee time off some of them.

To name a few prices at present.

Lahinch €240
Portmarnock €250
Royal Portrush £240
Ballybunion €250
Adare €395

Maybe Corona will change things ?

You need to get to acquant yourself with some members Fix.:) I'm not sure about Portmarnock & Portrush but the others can be played for significantly less with a member.

Ballybunion has scratch cups so that's another way to play it for less.

Compared to golf in Portugal or Spain the prices are better for what you get but I agree with you. It's trending the wrong way.

slave1 · 25-05-2020 11:56am

Golf Digest differentiated their listing with actual golfer involvement in the process with their ability to influence the rankings through actual real world reviews.
They stopped this a few years back so now just another sitting around the table listing

PARlance · 25-05-2020 12:09pm

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

I love the feel of real Irish golf - to be honest, some of these top places are leaving behind the unique selling point and brilliance we have in golf here. You can play with anyone from an unemployed musician to a high court judge.

Thinking about going out tomorrow evening, a couple of slots available, my friends mother or a former Taoiseach. In fairness, he's looking like an unemployed musician these days and she'd strike more fear than any judge.

Edit for relevance: Not a top 100 course.

FixdePitchmark · 25-05-2020 12:10pm

SEORG wrote: »

You need to get to acquant yourself with some members Fix.:) I'm not sure about Portmarnock & Portrush but the others can be played for significantly less with a member.

Ballybunion has scratch cups so that's another way to play it for less.

Compared to golf in Portugal or Spain the prices are better for what you get but I agree with you. It's trending the wrong way.

Yes I get this.

But I think that is a bit Irish - because you know Billy - who is a mate with John , and then this open thing . Sure you can't plan your year around when a course in west of Ireland is going to let the locals in.

I'm a GUI member - I'll pay €100 plus - but €250 for a GUI member is taking the piss.

FixdePitchmark · 25-05-2020 12:11pm

slave1 wrote: »

Golf Digest differentiated their listing with actual golfer involvement in the process with their ability to influence the rankings through actual real world reviews.
They stopped this a few years back so now just another sitting around the table listing

Lads were getting free rounds out of that.

Fundamentally that alters the golf experience.

Mushy · 25-05-2020 12:34pm

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

I've played 15 of the top 20 - big gap having not played - Royal Portrush.
Must sort out soon.

A new one - and one I realistically will never play is, The Golf Course at Adare Manor. Kind of first time, to have a course that you know, you can't even play - new to Ireland. I don't even want to play it.

This concept is a sad development (for me) - the top courses were/are getting more and more illusive and expensive. Following that American route of price Trumps all else. To be honest I hate that fake resort feel - caddies and 5 star pro shops with logos on everything chasing the yank book. When you turn up (local/Irish/GUI) - there is almost an embarrassment in all parties at the show, put on for the yanks.

Rory McIlroy put it well recently saying he preferred the casual feel of Irish golf versus US golf. The No Laying Up guys have been critical of what has happened at top resorts in their own country. They love the feel of Irish golf (but not paying the green fees makes that easy )

I love the feel of real Irish golf - to be honest, some of these top places are leaving behind the unique selling point and brilliance we have in golf here. You can play with anyone from an unemployed musician to a high court judge.

Sure leave them off - we can typically play these places in our own time , but increasingly - off mats , short courses, mid winter and an almost contemptuous atmosphere as you try get a tee time off some of them.

To name a few prices at present.

Lahinch €240
Portmarnock €250
Royal Portrush £240
Ballybunion €250
Adare €395

Maybe Corona will change things ?

I think prices will go down. People may be less likely to travel, so if numbers are down, price will come down accordingly.

Or at least I'm hoping that happens, have plans for some staycations and to play the links courses here

mike12 · 25-05-2020 12:46pm

Out of the top 31 there are 6 I haven't played.
The biggest green fee I have paid is €100 and I haven't played any with a member.

Ireland has some of the best courses in the world at the cheapest prices.

I reckon I have played 10 of those courses for the same as one green fee of a course in the top 30 of any US listing.

It would be nice if there was a standard GUI rate for courses think there is a local rate for top courses in Scotland so something similar to that.

The biggest thing for me is availability you can ring all those courses and get out for a fee 99% of the time, it's just not like that in other countries.
Even membership is within reach for your average person on most of them.

I would struggle to think of another country where I would want to be a golfer, we are a bit spoiled here for price and quality along with year round conditions where we can play golf and long summer evenings we just can't admit it.

RoadRunner · 25-05-2020 1:26pm

Last year I was lucky enough to play (for a reasonable price)
Portmarnock links, baltray, the european club, the island, dooks.
The year before enniscrone, carne, co sligo.

They are my favourite days on courses ever, we received a fantastic welcome, I'd recommend them to anyone, and I can't wait to go back.

Many courses take up breathtakingly beautiful corridors of Irish land. I agree that there needs to be some top-led level-headed initiative to try share these spaces with Irish club golfers. Particularly over the latter part of this summer, during covid and the temporary end of tourism into the country.

Break80 · 25-05-2020 1:38pm

I reckon come July/August you should be able to ring any of these courses and negotiate a deal.
There won't be any tourist green fees this year. €300.00
local 4 ball or leave the place empty.
What would you do?

willabur · 25-05-2020 2:07pm

I know one of the courses from that list has an exceptionally healthy bank balance, I don't think they will be chasing green fees anytime soon

willabur · 25-05-2020 2:09pm

On the list itself, I always find them a bit of fun and good as a reference. I would like to play every one of them but at the same time if I am spending over 100 euro on a round of golf it is a once in a blue moon - a bit like going for a meal at a michellin star restaurant.

ChippingSodbury · 25-05-2020 4:39pm

I can't understand how Ballinrobe is at No. 77: it's a far better course than that. Headfort (New) at 40 also seems a bit low.

Golfhead65 · 25-05-2020 4:48pm

Has the Hogs Head @ 42 even got members, afaik it is just a Corporate golf course with a lot of wealthy golfers being flown in by helicopter. I witnessed this first hand when I was doing the Ring of Kerry last year and ventured over to take a look at the course..Wide open on a cliff top, I cannot for the life of me see how it's listed at 42

FixdePitchmark · 25-05-2020 7:40pm

Has anyone played Adare - or Hogs head.

rossyd2005 · 25-05-2020 8:53pm

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Has anyone played Adare - or Hogs head.

I played Adare last Spring. Was invited by a member who was a contact through work. It was an amazing experience from the titleist pyramid of balls on the range to the personalised bag tag that they had waiting, the place is on a different level to anywhere i had been or will be again im sure.

The greens were immaculate and the fringes and run offs were better than the greens in my own course. Almost all the greens were elavated and if u were short or long the big run offs left you 30 yards pitches. There are a few unreal looking signature holes but even the "normal" holes are special due to the condition of absolutely everything.

I played with two members and had a pint in the bar after. Everyone was sound and no real feeling of being out of place which i had expected. The round was free for me and my mate but members guest fee is 170 at that time of year fyi. If with a member you dont need a caddy either. A 4 ball with caddies is close to 2k. Crazy money

Deporhostia · 26-05-2020 12:10am

Break80 wrote: »

I reckon come July/August you should be able to ring any of these courses and negotiate a deal.
There won't be any tourist green fees this year. €300.00
local 4 ball or leave the place empty.
What would you do?

I think I saw that Ballybunion are doing a deal for one night hotel including dinner and one round on old course, for €300 ppn. This summer. So a slight saving but I was hoping for a lot better

doublecross · 26-05-2020 8:57am

I don't understand why people get so upset about certain clubs charging expensive green fees. It's their club, they can do as they please. If you don't like it then don't pay it. The only reason my own club has opens is money, not because they want to share the club with slievenamon distance members.
What's the purpose of clubs joining the GUI? Is so there members can get a handicap. I'm guessing that the likes of Hogs Head and Old Head are not members.

Golfhead65 · 26-05-2020 11:48am

I was thinking, if Hogs Head and Old Head are not affiliated to the GUI, Why are they ranked ? They shouldn't get a rank alongside clubs who have affiliation..It's like using a tested drug against a non tested drug, both serve the same purpose maybe, but one hasnt followed the procedures. Just in the same way whoever compiles these lists get ENTITLEMENTS..Just my thoughts on it

prawnsambo · 26-05-2020 12:00pm

Golfhead65 wrote: »

I was thinking, if Hogs Head and Old Head are not affiliated to the GUI, Why are they ranked ? They shouldn't get a rank alongside clubs who have affiliation..It's like using a tested drug against a non tested drug, both serve the same purpose maybe, but one hasnt followed the procedures. Just in the same way whoever compiles these lists get ENTITLEMENTS..Just my thoughts on it

By the same token, you can't pretend they don't exist. If you're evaluating courses, whether they are affiliated with the GUI or not, they are still golf courses and can be played, albeit at a cost.

thewobbler · 26-05-2020 12:03pm

Golfhead65 wrote: »

I was thinking, if Hogs Head and Old Head are not affiliated to the GUI, Why are they ranked ? They shouldn't get a rank alongside clubs who have affiliation..It's like using a tested drug against a non tested drug, both serve the same purpose maybe, but one hasnt followed the procedures. Just in the same way whoever compiles these lists get ENTITLEMENTS..Just my thoughts on it

Emmm, so what you’re saying is that Golf Digest, a magazine with no affiliation to the GUI, should refuse to rank non-GUI courses?

Your head is scrambled fella.

RoadRunner · 26-05-2020 12:19pm

doublecross wrote: »

I don't understand why people get so upset about certain clubs charging expensive green fees. It's their club, they can do as they please. If you don't like it then don't pay it.

We are all here because we like golf. Lets be honest though, the use of large tracts of Irish land for golf courses is literally THE most inefficient way possible for land to be used.

Beachfront land, links land, is special. I can't imagine a childhood not spent playing in dunes, chasing hares through maram grass, hearing skylarks sing overhead (but somehow not being able to see them).

Some of the beach courses in Dublin make their lands accessible. Their courses are used to their fullest to bring as much joy (or frustration

) as possible to as many people possible. As I posted above, these have been my best days of the past few years.

Regarding, "it's their club they can do as they please". Well sometimes you can't or shouldn't be able to do whatever you like with your plot. Things can't always be done with culturally important sites. You can't just buy the land surrounding the blarney stone and cut it up into bits to sell to the highest bidders. You can't, or shouldn't, be able to buy an old Irish castle to refashion it and exclude the public from it.

The wooden bridge across to bullwall is historic beautiful land. It's very close to high density population. It's historically and culturally important. Royal Dublin and nearby portmarnock have excluded women members since their inception and still do. I'd argue that they also exclude Irish golfers by charging fees that are only paid by tourists. The land they are on is becoming too culturally and recreationally important to allow this exclusion to continue indefinitely is my view.

Look, other stuff, like Adare with it's 5 star service, greens manicured to within an inch of their life, personalise badges etc. The public can still go to Adare, I get that, and I understand their green fee. Tens of millions of euro and thousands of hours of work made that place what it is and what they've done with the place looks to be incredible. Portmarnock, the land was sculpted for them. They didn't have irrigation until 20 years ago. In St Andrews the public can walk the course, but if you want to see where seve splashed out of the sand in Dublin, well you'll get a bit of change back with your €300.

Culturally important and beautiful places all across the world are priced differently for tourists, for example in Iceland hot springs are priced separately for tourists, with exceptions made for local icelandics to be able to visit.

Damn, this turned into rant

Anyway, point is, there's some places that access to tracts of land to own inhabitants of that same land shouldn't be €300.. and every day that goes by I begin to feel more strongly about it.

Golfhead65 · 26-05-2020 12:58pm

thewobbler wrote: »

Emmm, so what you’re saying is that Golf Digest, a magazine with no affiliation to the GUI, should refuse to rank non-GUI courses?

Your head is scrambled fella.

It was just a thought, A top 100 of affiliated clubs that are accessible to the majority of us and not the Yankee dollar would make more sense.. as for my head scrambled I don't think so and if you thought that from my post there is one of us like that alright..You dont work for Golf Digest by any chance ??

FixdePitchmark · 26-05-2020 1:21pm

doublecross wrote: »

I don't understand why people get so upset about certain clubs charging expensive green fees. It's their club, they can do as they please. If you don't like it then don't pay it. The only reason my own club has opens is money, not because they want to share the club with slievenamon distance members.
What's the purpose of clubs joining the GUI? Is so there members can get a handicap. I'm guessing that the likes of Hogs Head and Old Head are not members.

I think it is far more complex than that. There are many dimension to it.

I've paid very high green fees and will in the future - but you can still feel "upset" / disappointed in the process. Particularity when some lad floats in on a nod and a wink - as he know the local bar owner (but he doesn't really) - or as I've seen, some local GAA hero brings 7 lads in for 30/40 euro - there is me, 250 euro down and have contributed more to golf (financially) in Ireland than any of them (7 of them anyway).

Sports typically are in a Union and golf shares that as a concept. You see this in other sports like Rugby and Soccer and GAA. People invite each other to their facilities and share each others' grounds. Fundamentally there is an altruistic attitude to this, and this was always the case in golf too (I hoped) ? I'm more than happy to see other golfers enjoy open weeks / opens etc at my club. But it is about reciprocation at a reasonable level. I'm not too happy when they are from a club that does not get into the spirit of things.

No one in their right mind is claiming they can walk up any day of the week and look for a round at 50/60 euro. €100 is a very fair green fee for someone coming from a club in the same union. Who have opened our club to them. They don't have any opens at all - so what is the story for a GUI member ?

Your suggestion they should charge what they like to anyone - is kind of saying, well we are not going to be a union for all - all courses in Ireland will not be accessible to all - it will only be for the rich or the ones in the know. I think that does a complete disservice to the idea of the union. It is going down the US route - is that what we want ? perhaps. I'd be very disappointed with that.
And, I'm speaking as someone who does pay the fee - and does have contacts in many clubs.

I think Roadrunners post is very interesting and the ownership of the land is a very interesting one - how did some of the land come into their ownership , I don't think we are going from wanting to pay €100 for a round of golf to some crazy socialist land grab. But some of the land ownership on some of the courses - amounted to some lads going out on a boat and sticking a few flags in the ground. Some of the sites have megalithic signs of life. And yet a few people think it is "their club". It is their club , of course. But it still is Ireland - in many cases it almost forms part of our coast. You can be a wealthy club, but you can also have a bit of class.

Salvadoor · 26-05-2020 1:57pm

I had a look at the Ballybunion, Tralee and Waterville GC websites. All still listing €250 green fees, with plenty of space available for the random day in July I picked (excluding Waterville, where they will confirm after your enquiry)

doublecross · 26-05-2020 2:08pm

RoadRunner wrote: »

We are all here because we like golf. Lets be honest though, the use of large tracts of Irish land for golf courses is literally THE most inefficient way possible for land to be used.

Beachfront land, links land, is special. I can't imagine a childhood not spent playing in dunes, chasing hares through maram grass, hearing skylarks sing overhead (but somehow not being able to see them).

Some of the beach courses in Dublin make their lands accessible. Their courses are used to their fullest to bring as much joy (or frustration ) as possible to as many people possible. As I posted above, these have been my best days of the past few years.

Regarding, "it's their club they can do as they please". Well sometimes you can't or shouldn't be able to do whatever you like with your plot. Things can't always be done with culturally important sites. You can't just buy the land surrounding the blarney stone and cut it up into bits to sell to the highest bidders. You can't, or shouldn't, be able to buy an old Irish castle to refashion it and exclude the public from it.

The wooden bridge across to bullwall is historic beautiful land. It's very close to high density population. It's historically and culturally important. Royal Dublin and nearby portmarnock have excluded women members since their inception and still do. I'd argue that they also exclude Irish golfers by charging fees that are only paid by tourists. The land they are on is becoming too culturally and recreationally important to allow this exclusion to continue indefinitely is my view.

Look, other stuff, like Adare with it's 5 star service, greens manicured to within an inch of their life, personalise badges etc. The public can still go to Adare, I get that, and I understand their green fee. Tens of millions of euro and thousands of hours of work made that place what it is and what they've done with the place looks to be incredible. Portmarnock, the land was sculpted for them. They didn't have irrigation until 20 years ago. In St Andrews the public can walk the course, but if you want to see where seve splashed out of the sand in Dublin, well you'll get a bit of change back with your €300.

Culturally important and beautiful places all across the world are priced differently for tourists, for example in Iceland hot springs are priced separately for tourists, with exceptions made for local icelandics to be able to visit.

Damn, this turned into rant Anyway, point is, there's some places that access to tracts of land to own inhabitants of that same land shouldn't be €300.. and every day that goes by I begin to feel more strongly about it.

I wasn't talking about access to right of ways or cultural/historical sites in or around golf course. I meant that it is up to the members to decide what they want to charge visitors to play their club. They pay their membership only seems fair. Wouldn't be fair for me to expect to pay €15 to play portmarnock links because that's what I deem fair or because that's what my club charge, if you get my point.

doublecross · 26-05-2020 2:19pm

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

I think it is far more complex than that. There are many dimension to it.

I've paid very high green fees and will in the future - but you can still feel "upset" / disappointed in the process. Particularity when some lad floats in on a nod and a wink - as he know the local bar owner (but he doesn't really) - or as I've seen, some local GAA hero brings 7 lads in for 30/40 euro - there is me, 250 euro down and have contributed more to golf (financially) in Ireland than any of them (7 of them anyway).

Sports typically are in a Union and golf shares that as a concept. You see this in other sports like Rugby and Soccer and GAA. People invite each other to their facilities and share each others' grounds. Fundamentally there is an altruistic attitude to this, and this was always the case in golf too (I hoped) ? I'm more than happy to see other golfers enjoy open weeks / opens etc at my club. But it is about reciprocation at a reasonable level. I'm not too happy when they are from a club that does not get into the spirit of things.

No one in their right mind is claiming they can walk up any day of the week and look for a round at 50/60 euro. €100 is a very fair green fee for someone coming from a club in the same union. Who have opened our club to them. They don't have any opens at all - so what is the story for a GUI member ?

Your suggestion they should charge what they like to anyone - is kind of saying, well we are not going to be a union for all - all courses in Ireland will not be accessible to all - it will only be for the rich or the ones in the know. I think that does a complete disservice to the idea of the union. It is going down the US route - is that what we want ? perhaps. I'd be very disappointed with that.
And, I'm speaking as someone who does pay the fee - and does have contacts in many clubs.

I think Roadrunners post is very interesting and the ownership of the land is a very interesting one - how did some of the land come into their ownership , I don't think we are going from wanting to pay €100 for a round of golf to some crazy socialist land grab. But some of the land ownership on some of the courses - amounted to some lads going out on a boat and sticking a few flags in the ground. Some of the sites have megalithic signs of life. And yet a few people think it is "their club". It is their club , of course. But it still is Ireland - in many cases it almost forms part of our coast. You can be a wealthy club, but you can also have a bit of class.

If I wanted to go and play soccer or hurling on another clubs pitch I would not be allowed. I'd have to be a member of that club. Only allowed when I play that team in an away match. I'd often look at other soccer clubs facilities and be in envy. Doesn't mean I have a right to play there.
You say we're going down the American route. I'm not sure. I wasn't that long ago that no clubs had opens. You were only allowed play at another club when they had their "Open Week", that was it. We would buy a book detailing every clubs open week so we wouldn't miss that one week an club near by would open. Far more open now than it has ever been.

Raisins · 26-05-2020 2:33pm

There’s two sides to the argument on green fees at the big links courses but Hogs Head is in a different category entirely and is an abomination in my opinion. It’s the only course in the country you can’t play or even go in for coffee regardless as to how much you’re happy to pay.

You cannot enter unless you’re with a member and their membership is absolutely tiny. It’s a playground not for the wealthy but for the uber rich mostly from overseas. Utterly American concept. They should never have gotten planning permission from Kerry county council for that development in this day and age. It’s one thing to do that in middle of nowhere in America like Pine Valley or Augusta but to do it on the wild Atlantic way should never have been allowed.

doublecross · 26-05-2020 2:43pm

Raisins wrote: »

There’s two sides to the argument on green fees at the big links courses but Hogs Head is in a different category entirely and is an abomination in my opinion. It’s the only course in the country you can’t play or even go in for coffee regardless as to how much you’re happy to pay.

You cannot enter unless you’re with a member and their membership is absolutely tiny. It’s a playground not for the wealthy but for the uber rich mostly from overseas. Utterly American concept. They should never have gotten planning permission from Kerry county council for that development in this day and age. It’s one thing to do that in middle of nowhere in America like Pine Valley or Augusta but to do it on the wild Atlantic way should never have been allowed.

I agree. Hogs Head is a strange one. Play thing for rich Americans. I'd be surprised if it's still around in 10 years. There already was a course there (Skellig Bay), probably how they got permission from KCC. As far as I'm aware visitors are welcome to bar/restaurant. I think greens fee's are allowed also but I'm sure why another one would want to play it (layout looks bland) when you have waterville next door.

thewobbler · 26-05-2020 2:45pm

Golfhead65 wrote: »

It was just a thought, A top 100 of affiliated clubs that are accessible to the majority of us and not the Yankee dollar would make more sense.. as for my head scrambled I don't think so and if you thought that from my post there is one of us like that alright..You dont work for Golf Digest by any chance ??

No I don’t.

Golf Digest’s endeavour is to assess Ireland’s golf courses, not its golf clubs. Hence the likes of Carton House gets two separate marks, not one.

Their marking system is very transparent and is focused solely on the 18 holes laid in front of them.

But you’re suggesting they should scrap this concept in favour of one with an eligibility criteria that surrounds the club (not the course). And if I’m reading you right, one in which Old Head would not make the criteria, but Portmarnock would make it.

That’s exceptionally contentious, and therefore scrambled.

——

Fixd we’ve been here before.

You’ll never be able to convince me that someone paying a couple of hundred quid a year to be a 5-day member of a backwater 9 hole course, lays a claim to be in “union” with a club that spends millions maintaining the highest level of facilities.

The logical comparator with other unionised sports is availability of the elite facilities for the smallest clubs. And that just doesn’t happen. Golf (in Ireland) has it so good as it is. Complaining about it just seems petty to me.

Raisins · 26-05-2020 2:48pm

doublecross wrote: »

I agree. Hogs Head is a strange one. Play thing for rich Americans. I'd be surprised if it's still around in 10 years. There already was a course there (Skellig Bay), probably how they got permission from KCC. As far as I'm aware visitors are welcome to bar/restaurant. I think greens fee's are allowed also but I'm sure why another one would want to play it (layout looks bland) when you have waterville next door.

Green fees are definitely not allowed. I thought you couldn’t go in from speaking to a lad who played it.

doublecross · 26-05-2020 2:55pm

Raisins wrote: »

Green fees are definitely not allowed. I thought you couldn’t go in from speaking to a lad who played it.

They talked about allowing green fee's but wouldn't be surprised if that was bull. They definitely open the bar/restaurant, you have to ring ahead (I was informed by a local).

ShivasIrons · 26-05-2020 3:09pm

Raisins wrote: »

Green fees are definitely not allowed. I thought you couldn’t go in from speaking to a lad who played it.

You definitely can pay a green fee and play Hogs Head

Golfhead65 · 26-05-2020 4:19pm

doublecross wrote: »

If I wanted to go and play soccer or hurling on another clubs pitch I would not be allowed. I'd have to be a member of that club. Only allowed when I play that team in an away match. I'd often look at other soccer clubs facilities and be in envy. Doesn't mean I have a right to play there.
You say we're going down the American route. I'm not sure. I wasn't that long ago that no clubs had opens. You were only allowed play at another club when they had their "Open Week", that was it. We would buy a book detailing every clubs open week so we wouldn't miss that one week an club near by would open. Far more open now than it has ever been.

Ah the old green open book, used to be the golfers bible and you would wait in anticipation for it's release

RoadRunner · 26-05-2020 5:08pm

doublecross wrote: »

I wasn't talking about access to right of ways or cultural/historical sites in or around golf course. I meant that it is up to the members to decide what they want to charge visitors to play their club. They pay their membership only seems fair. Wouldn't be fair for me to expect to pay €15 to play portmarnock links because that's what I deem fair or because that's what my club charge, if you get my point.

doublecross wrote: »

If I wanted to go and play soccer or hurling on another clubs pitch I would not be allowed. I'd have to be a member of that club. Only allowed when I play that team in an away match. I'd often look at other soccer clubs facilities and be in envy. Doesn't mean I have a right to play there.

At 2 acres, a soccer or hurling pitch is slightly different. When it's 150+ acres of the nicest land in the highest populated parts of the highest populated city in the country, and clubs with the most discriminatory policies in the country - it starts to be different. No one is suggesting to pay 15 euro, if there was a token discount to GUI members or an open day once in a blue moon. 10% off the winter rate maybe. Some token.

Extreme example, but if I closed down the phoenix park, or Stephens green tomorrow so me and my friends could hit a ball around it, banned women and tried to charge €250+ to join then my claims that it was my club and I can charge what I like would start to run hollow. Now that would obviously not be allowed now for numerous reasons. But so too would someone not be able to purchase hundreds of acres of links land on the most prime seaside recreational amenity area in the country, ban women and charge hundreds per entry with zero concession for neighbours. A small concession would go a long way.

FixdePitchmark · 26-05-2020 6:54pm

thewobbler wrote: »

No I don’t.

Golf Digest’s endeavour is to assess Ireland’s golf courses, not its golf clubs. Hence the likes of Carton House gets two separate marks, not one.

Their marking system is very transparent and is focused solely on the 18 holes laid in front of them.

But you’re suggesting they should scrap this concept in favour of one with an eligibility criteria that surrounds the club (not the course). And if I’m reading you right, one in which Old Head would not make the criteria, but Portmarnock would make it.

That’s exceptionally contentious, and therefore scrambled.

——

Fixd we’ve been here before.

You’ll never be able to convince me that someone paying a couple of hundred quid a year to be a 5-day member of a backwater 9 hole course, lays a claim to be in “union” with a club that spends millions maintaining the highest level of facilities.

The logical comparator with other unionised sports is availability of the elite facilities for the smallest clubs. And that just doesn’t happen. Golf (in Ireland) has it so good as it is. Complaining about it just seems petty to me.

I'm not actually asking for something that is completely left of field.

If you look at the top 20.

Over 1/2 recognize GUI members - or at least provide an open week / open day - Ballybunion for example have some form of cup / scratch cups. The European Club is very generous to GUI members - Anything North West is great.

Main problems are Dublin and a bit in the south west. The North a bit odd too.

You are right , very good overall - just a couple of bad apples.

Ally McIntosh · 26-05-2020 7:43pm

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

I'm not actaully asking for something that is completely left of field.

If you look at the top 20.

Over 1/2 recognize GUI members - or at least provide an open week / open day - Ballybunion for example have some form of cup / scratch cups. The European Club is very generous to GUI members - Anything North West is great.

Main problems are Dublin and a bit in the south west. The North a bit odd too.

You are right , very good overall - just a couple of bad apples.

Fix,

I never really understand this line you take at all. You are asking for a different approach for access to elite courses than every other country in the world takes.

The closest I’ve seen to what you ask is a local rate for some of the more remote “great” courses in Scotland. After Scotland, Ireland is probably the 2nd most accessible golfing country anywhere.

Sure, golf green fees have gone up outrageously in GB&I over the last 30 years. I find that a shame. But it’s happened at every course on the tourist trail. If the entire population of golfers was willing to accept 80’s conditioning and facilities, we might see the fees lower again. I’d be up for that personally.

As it is, this “GUI courses must hold Opens” line of attack I just don’t get.

FixdePitchmark · 26-05-2020 8:49pm

Ally McIntosh wrote: »

Fix,

I never really understand this line you take at all. You are asking for a different approach for access to elite courses than every other country in the world takes.

The closest I’ve seen to what you ask is a local rate for some of the more remote “great” courses in Scotland. After Scotland, Ireland is probably the 2nd most accessible golfing country anywhere.

Sure, golf green fees have gone up outrageously in GB&I over the last 30 years. I find that a shame. But it’s happened at every course on the tourist trail. If the entire population of golfers was willing to accept 80’s conditioning and facilities, we might see the fees lower again. I’d be up for that personally.

As it is, this “GUI courses must hold Opens” line of attack I just don’t get.

Well you acknowledge it can improve.

I don't think , I've ever insisted they must , or If I have, I've refined it to, It is the right thing to do, or If they don't hold opens - they shouldn't take part in others. They shouldn't expect to take part in one either. I'd certainly vote for anything that would block them. I feel very strongly about it. As they feel strongly about not holding opens or recognizing a GUI golfer.

It genuinely is a mater of principle for me. It isn't about the money side.

I think that is perfectly rational and fair.

Your assertion on the 80's conditioning and facilities - I'm not sure what that means. But most locations with world class conditioning and facilities, do have a more reasonable and fair attitude to visitors / GUI members. We could all list them off. We could also list the ones that don't. I don't think we need to do that.

On the tourist trail - yes of course, there is a premium that can be charged for this. And, you can't begrudge anyone pursuing that.

But there is no point in being dishonest about this - certain clubs do not hold opens or do not give GUI rates - because they want to maintain an element of elitism.

And they are the clubs - I just can not stomach paying the rates - even If I can afford it.

It genuinely is a matter of principle - it is not about the money for me. Because - I will end up paying , I just hate the idea of it. I certainly would not like to be a member of a club like that. I'd never join one. A golf club should be a place that is welcoming to fellow golfers, friendly, an attitude of comradeship. An awareness that anyone who is a member of any other club is a real golfer and part of the greater Irish golfing community.

Anyone who joins a golf club has a relationship with the game, we all understand and love together. For all the talk of golf being a big game in Ireland. The ones who are in clubs are the heart of the game. Thick and thin , boom and bust. They are the constant , the past, the present and the future of the game.

When you go to a great club , they find out who you are, how your pro is getting on , how they had a great day out there. We are a small community, juniors , wives and families, pros, junior pros all intermingle with each other. We drink in the same pubs and go to the same funerals.

To treat someone from a neighboring club like a stranger - or like a yank on a 30,000 euro trip . Is just bad manners - not the way most of us in Ireland were raised anyway. It completely misses the point of being Irish and Irish golf.

Ally McIntosh · 26-05-2020 9:06pm

I just don’t see it - why should a course hold an Open?

Every club decides its own model. They are all accessible. Some limit the number of rounds per year for visitors because they want to ensure a quality product for their members.

I can assure you that most of the members of these courses you refer to love taking guests out and showing them how proud they are of their course. Ditto engaging with visitors on the same topic.

These clubs also tend to host many events, competitions, select societies and charities that enable non-members to play as well as semi-open weeks. Just because they choose not to host an intermediate scratch cup for 20 quid does not mean they are not accessible or not welcoming.

All of that said, I do understand the frustration. I am fortunate enough to play at a great course and be in the golf business, allowing me to see other great courses. If I wasn’t in that position, I too would be keen to find opportunities - such as Open days - wherever possible. That doesn’t mean I would be angry with the clubs though.

FixdePitchmark · 26-05-2020 9:13pm

Ally McIntosh wrote: »

I just don’t see it - why should a course hold an Open?

Every club decides its own model. They are all accessible. Some limit the number of rounds per year for visitors because they want to ensure a quality product for their members.

I can assure you that most of the members of these courses you refer to love taking guests out and showing them how proud they are of their course. Ditto engaging with visitors on the same topic.

These clubs also tend to host many events, competitions, select societies and charities that enable non-members to play as well as semi-open weeks. Just because they choose not to host an intermediate scratch cup for 20 quid does not mean they are not accessible or not welcoming.

I've been to most of them - they are horrendous experiences .

They are not accessible to most GUI members or welcoming.

We just have to agree to disagree.

Again - they don't have to hold an Open - but it is the right thing to do , but do not go to other opens.

Ally McIntosh · 26-05-2020 9:23pm

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

I've been to most of them - they are horrendous experiences .

They are not accessible to most GUI members or welcoming.

We just have to agree to disagree.

Again - they don't have to hold an Open - but it is the right thing to do , but do not go to other opens.

Perhaps that is more reflective of you than the club? For sure, some clubs can appear imposing on the surface. But those clubs are usually full of members who are all about the golf and who are especially keen that visitors and guests have a good experience.

I feel most uncomfortable at the clubs where the American service model is trotted out, where the red carpet is rolled out for every visitor. That’s probably reflective of me though.

FixdePitchmark · 26-05-2020 9:28pm

Ally McIntosh wrote: »

Perhaps that is more reflective of you than the club? For sure, some clubs can appear imposing on the surface. But those clubs are usually full of members who are all about the golf and who are especially keen that visitors and guests have a good experience.

I feel most uncomfortable at the clubs where the American service model is trotted out, where the red carpet is rolled out for every visitor. That’s probably reflective of me though.

Ally - you've your head in the bunker if you think there is not a real problem in some clubs. Know lots who left them for that very reason - and for issues of equality too.

Some are socially in the dark ages - and that is not a reflection of me.

Ally McIntosh · 26-05-2020 9:34pm

Equality is a different discussion though. It should not be confused with whether a course is accessible or even welcoming to visitors.

FixdePitchmark · 26-05-2020 9:49pm

Ally McIntosh wrote: »

Equality is a different discussion though. It should not be confused with whether a course is accessible or even welcoming to visitors.

In my opinion you are wrong. It creates a tone in the club. If you have an atmosphere of elitism and exclusion to start with - you are hardly going to have a radical policy on visitors, accessibility and an open relationship with the community or outsiders.

It is not as If , I'm suggesting a new policy on GUI members, needs to be radical or crazy and completely at odds with the club's ethos. I'm just saying, have an odd open (for jaysus sake) , to involve yourself with the golfing community - be a leader, be just a little bit altruistic. Take a chance in May - disprove the preconceptions.

Look - that is the type of club that the members want , and that is fair enough. It isn't for me - but I'd rather not see them either.

I mean you can't have it every way.

I think it will be hard for them to hold out anyway - society has fundamentally altered. And faster than anyone can imagine, even 10 years ago.

Watch this space.

doublecross · 26-05-2020 11:54pm

RoadRunner wrote: »

Extreme example, but if I closed down the phoenix park, or Stephens green tomorrow so me and my friends could hit a ball around it, banned women and tried to charge €250+ to join then my claims that it was my club and I can charge what I like would start to run hollow. Now that would obviously not be allowed now for numerous reasons. But so too would someone not be able to purchase hundreds of acres of links land on the most prime seaside recreational amenity area in the country, ban women and charge hundreds per entry with zero concession for neighbours. A small concession would go a long way.

Of course, that is an extreme example that nobody would want or that would happen. I still think it’s not for me to say what other clubs should charge.
But I agree, don’t think it would be unreasonable for small concession.

mike12 · 27-05-2020 7:31am

I don't think open competitions are really awash with members from the elite links courses why would you want to go play somewhere else.

All of them cater for local cheap green fees by holding semi opens or members guest rates.

Most would have large memberships, why give up slots cheaper when they can sell X amount of those at a premium rate.

We complain about distance members clogging up opens when they have paid a club 200 miles away for a handicap.

Opens in the past were the weeks you went and played other courses now they are revenue streams for most courses on a quite day to fill up the course, nothing to do with holding a open so people can come and see your course it how clubs make money.

FixdePitchmark · 10-06-2020 10:24pm

https://twitter.com/Ballyliffin/status/1270391336357724160/photo/1

Sorry - not sure if above will work - but fair play to Ballyliffin offering a GUI rate of €80 - as offered here.

DuckSlice · 10-06-2020 11:23pm

Friend of mine has been In contact with a few.

Tralee 120
Old head 130
Waterville 130

not sure if this is normal GUI rates or special offers. Not sure what dates he enquired about exactly but it was July/August time

doublecross · 10-06-2020 11:29pm

etxp wrote: »

Friend of mine has been In contact with a few.

Tralee 120
Old head 130
Waterville 130

not sure if this is normal GUI rates or special offers. Not sure what dates he enquired about exactly but it was July/August time

Lahinch still €240

no deal for GUI members

Deporhostia · 11-06-2020 1:04am

Ballybunion €125 for Old, €50 for Cashen, €155 for both in the same day.
GUI rate

Golf digest top 100 2020

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