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Deferred State Exams 2020 [SEE MOD NOTE POST #1]

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    #2462
    r93kaey5p2izun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭r93kaey5p2izun


    History Queen wrote: »
    Is anyone else confused by the conflicting stance of ASTI and TUI regarding indemnity? Are TUI being complacent and too quick to agree or are ASTI obstructionist? Full disclosure; I am a TUI member. I'm genuinely not sure who is correct.

    I've given up reading the document now after finding myself having to reread sections. I'm too annoyed about the whole situation to absorb it properly. I'll read it with a clear head tomorrow.

    I'm a TUI member. I think the ASTI is right. I think the wording of the "indemnity" is too wishy washy. "Subject to conditions", "has made every reasonable effort". Who will be deciding whether these conditions are met and whether every reasonable effort was made?


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    #2463
    acequion
    Registered Users Posts: 3,828 ✭✭✭acequion


    Chaya Fresh Shoehorn wrote: »
    I hope not. The HL teacher might have given a brutally hard Christmas exam and marked hard to get students to settle down and focus and drive them on. The OL teacher might have given a soft exam and marked easier for encouragement to stop them giving up. Or vice versa. Why would both exams be treated the same in determining the calculated grade?

    These exams are given by the individual teacher, using their own professional judgement of what is best for the specific students in front of them at the time. It's not one size fits all. These tests often have a largely formative role in student assessment and are often adapted as appropriate to achieve that aim. They are now being used for an unintended purpose. Only the teacher who gave and corrected the test knows how it should be considered in the case of each student.

    Totally agree but it is becoming more and more a one size fits all. This insistence of harmonising everything to the death and collaborating to the death is stifling. That's why I think the alignment process could turn out to be the biggest headache. In an earlier post I wondered if it would be some sort of glorified SLAR [I mistakenly said CBA, tripping up in the jargon :rolleyes:] In any case it promises to be oh so tedious.

    And sadly, I think this will only increase paperwork going forward. My principal is already salivating at the prospect of making us have more official exams next year, hence more official records in VSware. Cue more and more box ticking after this.:rolleyes:


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    #2464
    randylonghorn
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 29,509 Mod ✭✭✭✭randylonghorn


    joebloggs32 wrote: »
    Both unions would retain the services of a firm of solicitors. I'm sure both firms would have given their advice and now each union would be following it. Lawyers are like doctors, their opinions will often differ.
    you could well be right.


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    #2465
    r93kaey5p2izun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭r93kaey5p2izun


    ASTI spokesperson said their legal advice was that a teacher could be liable for 33% of costs in any case. I know nothing about the legalities but if that is even remotely possible then they are right and the TUI position is extremely worrying for their members. I hope there is clarification quickly.


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    #2466
    babybuilder
    Registered Users Posts: 1,075 ✭✭✭babybuilder


    Chaya Fresh Shoehorn wrote: »
    I hope not. The HL teacher might have given a brutally hard Christmas exam and marked hard to get students to settle down and focus and drive them on. The OL teacher might have given a soft exam and marked easier for encouragement to stop them giving up. Or vice versa. Why would both exams be treated the same in determining the calculated grade?

    These exams are given by the individual teacher, using their own professional judgement of what is best for the specific students in front of them at the time. It's not one size fits all. These tests often have a largely formative role in student assessment and are often adapted as appropriate to achieve that aim. They are now being used for an unintended purpose. Only the teacher who gave and corrected the test knows how it should be considered in the case of each student.

    Most departments within schools follow the same scheme, the same notes, carry out the same term exams well at least in the local school. Surely it would make sense that prior to any alignment meeting they would agree on a general strategy for arriving at a student grade. Otherwise it every teacher decided his or her criteria or "professional judgement" things could get out of hand. Term exams and end of year exams seem as well as the mocks would seem to me as a solid basis for calculating a grade.


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    #2467
    doc_17
    Registered Users Posts: 6,837 ✭✭✭doc_17


    Chaya Fresh Shoehorn wrote: »
    ASTI spokesperson said their legal advice was that a teacher could be liable for 33% of costs in any case. I know nothing about the legalities but if that is even remotely possible then they are right and the TUI position is extremely worrying for their members. I hope there is clarification quickly.

    TUI represent lecturers in 3rd level and the indemnity offered is the same indemnity that protects them. The TUI have more experience in this than ASTI so as a member I’m not at all worried. It’s the ASTI where the problem lies, and there’ll be a fudge today that will see them back on board.


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    #2468
    Random sample
    Registered Users Posts: 1,001 ✭✭✭Random sample


    Blondini wrote: »
    Full disclosure.

    I am teaching maths HL.
    I am feeling the pressure.

    One student of these is borderline H1 but most are not.
    Two girls I would have recommended to drop on the day.

    Tough calls.

    Did you recommend to them to drop after the mocks? It would be very foolish to continue at higher level in the current circumstances if your teacher had recommended you drop levels.


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    #2469
    deiseindublin
    Registered Users Posts: 2,257 ✭✭✭deiseindublin


    You could also argue that TUI are not impartial as third level jobs could be on the line if college entry numbers are down this year.

    It really is time that we had one second level Union in this country, at least then the reasons for their decisions would be clearer.


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    #2470
    pandoraj09
    Registered Users Posts: 345 ✭✭pandoraj09


    I've been teaching a woman in her late 20s for 4 years. She's hoping to go into Primary teaching and looking for a H4 in Irish. She's registered to do the exam in my own school but was never a student there. Am I able to give her a predicted grade does anybody know? Any other teachers with adults repeating a subject in this position? She emailed the DES and got the Guidelines thing emailed back to her. I've read all the documentation sent out and I can't see any answer to my question. They address the issue of students taking an extra subject outside of school but that's all I can see. Any helpful information appreciated.


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    #2471
    TheDriver
    Registered Users Posts: 12,401 ✭✭✭✭TheDriver


    and again, closing this thread as it's going nowhere and getting personal.


    open again, keep is civil. It's time for bans next.


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    #2472
    doc_17
    Registered Users Posts: 6,837 ✭✭✭doc_17


    I think the tone of the ASTI is softening. They have said they “are confident” it can be resolved soon.

    It’ll be tight to get it all done by this day week.


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    #2473
    History Queen
    Registered Users Posts: 3,452 ✭✭✭History Queen


    doc_17 wrote: »
    I think the tone of the ASTI is softening. They have said they “are confident” it can be resolved soon.

    It’ll be tight to get it all done by this day week.

    I'm swamped with corrections and reports for other groups. Have 2 TY groups, 2 1st year, 2 2nd year and 2 3rd year.... still have 1 2nd year group to do and 2 x 3rd year and 3rd year work not due back til Tuesday so not sure how I'll get it all done. Our reports to be done Friday 29th. Anyone else under pressure? Half thinking of sending an email looking for more time from my principal.


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    #2474
    r93kaey5p2izun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭r93kaey5p2izun


    doc_17 wrote: »
    TUI represent lecturers in 3rd level and the indemnity offered is the same indemnity that protects them. The TUI have more experience in this than ASTI so as a member I’m not at all worried. It’s the ASTI where the problem lies, and there’ll be a fudge today that will see them back on board.

    I don't think the two are fully comparable. Third Level lecturers grade students as a known part of their job, with all the systems in place in advance to allow that to happen, and everyone knows which assessments are being used for that purpose in advance. Some changes in how assessment was carried out occured this year though obviously.

    Teachers are now being asked to come up with a grade based on tests that weren't designed to be used for that purpose, weren't marked with that purpose in mind, and that students didn't expect to be worth anything, They mostly don't even have access to the actual test papers now as evidence of whether the test was easy, hard, marked consistently etc. They are left to decide themselves how much weighting if any these tests should have. This is also a new and controversial departure and therefore much more likely to be challenged in the courts due to lack of precedent.

    I think the legal risks involved are far greater for teachers in this situation.


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    #2475
    Alqua
    Registered Users Posts: 297 ✭✭Alqua


    Chaya Fresh Shoehorn wrote: »
    I'm a TUI member. I think the ASTI is right. I think the wording of the "indemnity" is too wishy washy. "Subject to conditions", "has made every reasonable effort". Who will be deciding whether these conditions are met and whether every reasonable effort was made?

    On (what was) Sean O'Rourke's show this morning - of course no teacher was invited on - they interviewed a LC student (1 of 2 guests). When asked for his thoughts on the ASTI stance, he said that he saw it as "a union using students as pawns in their dispute." I know we've come to expect this from the media, but I was absolutely livid listening to it.


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    #2476
    wirelessdude01
    Registered Users Posts: 8,417 ✭✭✭wirelessdude01


    Alqua wrote: »
    On (what was) Sean O'Rourke's show this morning - of course no teacher was invited on - they interviewed a LC student (1 of 2 guests). When asked for his thoughts on the ASTI stance, he said that he saw it as "a union using students as pawns in their dispute." I know we've come to expect this from the media, but I was absolutely livid listening to it.

    What dispute?

    Teachers were the pawns when it suited a small but very vocal minority of students who wanted predicted/calculated grades as it suited them.


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    #2477
    6am7f9zxrsjvnb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 430 ✭✭6am7f9zxrsjvnb


    Chaya Fresh Shoehorn wrote: »
    I don't think the two are fully comparable. Third Level lecturers grade students as a known part of their job, with all the systems in place in advance to allow that to happen, and everyone knows which assessments are being used for that purpose in advance. Some changes in how assessment was carried out occured this year though obviously.

    Teachers are now being asked to come up with a grade based on tests that weren't designed to be used for that purpose, weren't marked with that purpose in mind, and that students didn't expect to be worth anything, They mostly don't even have access to the actual test papers now as evidence of whether the test was easy, hard, marked consistently etc. They are left to decide themselves how much weighting if any these tests should have. This is also a new and controversial departure and therefore much more likely to be challenged in the courts due to lack of precedent.

    I think the legal risks involved are far greater for teachers in this situation.

    I’m guessing the ASTI have a problem with section 25 that states that a named teacher will be expected to ‘ cooperate’ with the state in its bid to defend itself.

    I don’t think it’s anything to do with a teacher finding himself out of pocket.

    The ASTI are probably requesting that no teacher should have to assist or cooperate with any legal case resulting from their decision.


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    #2478
    r93kaey5p2izun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭r93kaey5p2izun


    Random sample wrote: »
    Did you recommend to them to drop after the mocks? It would be very foolish to continue at higher level in the current circumstances if your teacher had recommended you drop levels.

    I don't know. A teacher might advise someone on 30% to drop due to the risk of failing completely if things don't go their way on the day, and possible consequences of that (Maths for example), also taking into consideration the greater workload involved at HL to get that H7 versus the chance of getting the same points at OL for a lot less work over the remaining months (having already studied HL up to this point). But the teacher may well believe the student is actually capable of getting the H7 or even a H6 if things go right on the day.

    In the case of HL Maths and bonus points, I think this presents quite a dilemma. Should a student on 30% advised to drop take that advice, and rule out the possibility of bonus points, now that the risks of it all going wrong on the day are essentially removed from the equation in this artificial situation?


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    #2479
    TheDriver
    Registered Users Posts: 12,401 ✭✭✭✭TheDriver


    Nalani Hissing Appetizer wrote: »
    I’m guessing the ASTI have a problem with section 25 that states that a named teacher will be expected to ‘ cooperate’ with the state in its bid to defend itself.

    I don’t think it’s anything to do with a teacher finding himself out of pocket.

    The ASTI are probably requesting that no teacher should have to assist or cooperate with any legal case resulting from their decision.

    If you've ever been drawn into a case before, you could find yourself sitting in a courtroom in Cork or Dublin for 3 days waiting to be called to say a few words and then sent home. It can be very stressful


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    #2480
    r93kaey5p2izun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭r93kaey5p2izun


    Nalani Hissing Appetizer wrote: »
    I’m guessing the ASTI have a problem with section 25 that states that a named teacher will be expected to ‘ cooperate’ with the state in its bid to defend itself.

    I don’t think it’s anything to do with a teacher finding himself out of pocket.

    The ASTI are probably requesting that no teacher should have to assist or cooperate with any legal case resulting from their decision.

    Well they stated explicitly that their concern is that their legal advisors said costs could fall on an individual teacher.


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    #2481
    ethical
    Registered Users Posts: 719 ✭✭✭ethical


    Its laughable and rather sad looking at the TUI website with regards to Legal indemnity:

    "Clarification in respect of all issues raised by the TUI is being provided."

    So they jumped the gun and sold their members while the ASTI were more cautious....and guess who is getting the bad press over all this.....of course its the ASTI!


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    #2482
    6am7f9zxrsjvnb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 430 ✭✭6am7f9zxrsjvnb


    TheDriver wrote: »
    If you've ever been drawn into a case before, you could find yourself sitting in a courtroom in Cork or Dublin for 3 days waiting to be called to say a few words and then sent home. It can be very stressful

    To be fair to the ASTI , Section 25 does not specify ‘how’ a named teacher would be expected to assist the state.

    There is every possibility that a teacher could find themselves in the scenario you outline above.

    Being grilled on why you gave a student a particular percentage would be an uncomfortable position to find yourself in.
    Fair play to the ASTI on this one.


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    #2483
    scrubs33
    Registered Users Posts: 199 ✭✭scrubs33


    Apologies if I've missed it but is there a date mentioned anywhere in the document that we could wrap the marking up by or is it up to schools individually to decide (obviously I'm hoping for as close to next Friday as possible but as other posters have said there are other groups to be looked after as well)


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    #2484
    6am7f9zxrsjvnb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 430 ✭✭6am7f9zxrsjvnb


    Chaya Fresh Shoehorn wrote: »
    Well they stated explicitly that their concern is that their legal advisors said costs could fall on an individual teacher.

    Fair enough. Personally, I can’t see a teacher being out of pocket.This won’t happen.
    I would be concerned about having to give evidence in a legal case, though.
    This is what I’m hoping the ASTI are working on.


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    #2485
    km79
    Registered Users Posts: 48,132 ✭✭✭✭km79


    scrubs33 wrote: »
    Apologies if I've missed it but is there a date mentioned anywhere in the document that we could wrap the marking up by or is it up to schools individually to decide (obviously I'm hoping for as close to next Friday as possible but as other posters have said there are other groups to be looked after as well)
    Not a single date mentioned.......


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    #2486
    JDMC2
    Registered Users Posts: 106 ✭✭JDMC2


    In the case of HL Maths and bonus points, I think this presents quite a dilemma. Should a student on 30% advised to drop take that advice, and rule out the possibility of bonus points, now that the risks of it all going wrong on the day are essentially removed from the equation in this artificial situation?

    Hopefully those two students will opt for the OL paper when asked to fill their form.


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    #2487
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Nalani Hissing Appetizer wrote: »
    Fair enough. Personally, I can’t see a teacher being out of pocket.This won’t happen.
    I would be concerned about having to give evidence in a legal case, though.
    This is what I’m hoping the ASTI are working on.

    This indemnity will be subject to conditions around notification and cooperation with the State in defending any legal cases should they arise and will only be capable of being invoked where a person has acted bona fide,

    What if the DES take the stance that the teacher didn't act bona fide. Indemnity doesn't cover you in that case.

    Take the example that was discussed here about two nights ago. Student has an average of 60, based on class work and previous experience of this type of mark, it's expected that the student might get a H3 on the day. But it's also known that sometimes students really pull one out of the bag and manage a H2 but that's far less common.

    Or the teacher goes down the line that was also suggested on this thread of 'inflate all the grades by 10-15%'.

    DES pulls that H2 down to a H4 in their deliberations when they compare the grades submitted for that subject in that school and find they are way out of line with previous years. Student is pulled down from 80 to 69. Student takes a case having accessed the material sent to the DES from their school when they appeal (and lose appeal). They argue that the teacher had them down for a H2, and the DES pulled them down to H4. DES said that based on evidence supplied from school that the H2 grade is not in line with student's proven ability and even allowing for benefit of doubt that the grades of the school in that subject are way out of line with previous years so they came tumbling down. DES says teacher did not act in bona fide.


    Thoughts?


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    #2488
    doc_17
    Registered Users Posts: 6,837 ✭✭✭doc_17


    The aspiration is the end of May.


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    #2489
    6am7f9zxrsjvnb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 430 ✭✭6am7f9zxrsjvnb


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    What if the DES take the stance that the teacher didn't act bona fide. Indemnity doesn't cover you in that case.

    Take the example that was discussed here about two nights ago. Student has an average of 60, based on class work and previous experience of this type of mark, it's expected that the student might get a H3 on the day. But it's also known that sometimes students really pull one out of the bag and manage a H2 but that's far less common.

    Or the teacher goes down the line that was also suggested on this thread of 'inflate all the grades by 10-15%'.

    DES pulls that H2 down to a H4 in their deliberations when they compare the grades submitted for that subject in that school and find they are way out of line with previous years. Student is pulled down from 80 to 69. Student takes a case having accessed the material sent to the DES from their school when they appeal (and lose appeal). They argue that the teacher had them down for a H2, and the DES pulled them down to H4. DES said that based on evidence supplied from school that the H2 grade is not in line with student's proven ability and even allowing for benefit of doubt that the grades of the school in that subject are way out of line with previous years so they came tumbling down. DES says teacher did not act in bona fide.

    Thoughts?

    Very good points. And what , exactly, constitutes not acting bona fide? The more you pore over that little paragraph, the more dumb the TUI position becomes.


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    #2490
    r93kaey5p2izun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭r93kaey5p2izun


    My belief is that the DES should be dealing with any issues of suspected poor practice in teacher grading before the grades advance officially through any standardisation process. After that point (once they accept the grades as being reasonable predictions made in good faith based on acceptable factors) they should be accepting all responsibility for the grades.


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    #2491
    r93kaey5p2izun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭r93kaey5p2izun


    JDMC2 wrote: »
    Hopefully those two students will opt for the OL paper when asked to fill their form.


    That's either a foolish or a malicious hope to express, without knowing the individual track records of the students concerned nor the thought process behind the advice of the teacher.


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