Masks

Arrival · 07-05-2020 11:01PM

pinkyeye wrote: »

Coming from a healthcare setting the wearing of masks will only work if it's mandatory for everyone. The standard masks you see that are about 1 euro each only protect another person from you, they do not protect you against others.

The more expensive and less readily available FFP2 and FFP3 will protect both you and others.

So in summary, I won't wear a mask in general unless everyone else is wearing one or if I'm going to be close to someone who is vunerable.

That you know/personally care about*

But in public you won't know who's vulnerable and who isn't...so tough **** for those strangers I guess

Seanergy · 08-05-2020 10:16AM

Yes: valved

pinkyeye wrote: »

Coming from a healthcare setting the wearing of masks will only work if it's mandatory for everyone. The standard masks you see that are about 1 euro each only protect another person from you, they do not protect you against others.

The more expensive and less readily available FFP2 and FFP3 will protect both you and others.

So in summary, I won't wear a mask in general unless everyone else is wearing one or if I'm going to be close to someone who is vunerable.

What you are doing here now is sharing your opinion and describing how you behave based on your beliefs. Every mask makes a difference.

I was told a story last night from a health care worker(HCW) in a small nursing home in Candada.

A whole nursing home (patients and staff) had to be tested because a cleaner's son got ill with COVID-19. Whilst her son showed symtoms, she had not. The cleaner had been visiting every patients room for a compact 2 weeks before they found out. Luckily she had decided by herself to wear a mask and not one person got infected. Had she infected one other, any number beyond one, both inside and outside the nursing home could have happened.

The HCW telling me that story last night said that the attitude to mask wearing within the ranks of non medical staff within this nursing home changed overnight. Everybody realised the difference one mask makes.

Every mask makes a difference.

Away With The Fairies · 08-05-2020 10:22AM

Yes: valved

Seanergy wrote: »

What you are doing here now is sharing your opinion and describing how you behave based on your beliefs. Every mask makes a difference.

I was told a story last night from a health care worker(HCW) in a small nursing home in Candada.

A whole nursing home (patients and staff) had to be tested because a cleaner's son got ill with COVID-19. Whilst her son showed symtoms, she had not. The cleaner had been visiting every patients room for a compact 2 weeks before they found out. Luckily she had decided by herself to wear a mask and not one person got infected. Had she infected one other, any number beyond one, both inside and outside the nursing home could have happened.

The HCW telling me that story last night said that the attitude to mask wearing within the ranks of non medical staff within this nursing home changed overnight. Everybody realised the difference one mask makes.

Every mask makes a difference.

Why are we not educating people on masks and introducing mask wearing?

drunkmonkey · 08-05-2020 10:39AM

No: other

If you need to wear a mask you shouldn't be out in the first place, we've done a pretty good job without masks and the ideal scenario is we keep it under control without all citizens required to wear masks outside in the fresh air.

Away With The Fairies · 08-05-2020 10:45AM

Yes: valved

drunkmonkey wrote: »

If you need to wear a mask you shouldn't be out in the first place, we've done a pretty good job without masks and the ideal scenario is we keep it under control without all citizens required to wear masks outside in the fresh air.

You're talking about people who has symptoms.They shouldn't be out.

What about asymptomatic people who show no symptoms and don't even know they have it. Even people who eventually get symptoms, they are infectious a few days before showing symptoms.

So if we catch this, we are all out at some point before showing symptoms spreading it. We should all be wearing masks.

Seanergy · 08-05-2020 10:50AM

Yes: valved

Away With The Fairies wrote: »

Why are we not educating people on masks and introducing mask wearing?

If you mean we as in State and HSE, sorry can only hazard guesses, wish I knew concretely why.

If you mean we as in us on this thread, in the act of discussing it I believe we are educating ourselves and others and introducing mask wearing albeit slowly and on a small scale, but as my previous post, every mask makes a difference.

Some contributer's to this thread are side tracking the few(with pure muck) from getting what was put to us all early on in this thread, to start a grassroots effort to mask up.

Screen-Shot-2020-05-08-at-10.48.21.png

08-05-2020 10:52AM

Mask usage in Vietnam has dropped off a cliff this week after it being one of the best countries for them. Mandatory masks in schools was ended after just three days of being back this week. They make classrooms impossible, especially with the heat right now.. 4.40pm and it's 36c.

Bit of a pity. I'm just surprised the government came out and actually said it instead of just letting them fizzle out. They were extremely effective in getting the country this far but people have had enough I suppose.

If it starts back up, everyone will be wearing them again.

Away With The Fairies · 08-05-2020 11:34AM

Yes: valved

Seanergy wrote: »

If you mean we as in State and HSE, sorry can only hazard guesses, wish I knew concretely why.

If you mean we as in us on this thread, in the act of discussing it I believe we are educating ourselves and others and introducing mask wearing albeit slowly and on a small scale, but as my previous post, every mask makes a difference.

Some contributer's to this thread are side tracking the few(with pure muck) from getting what was put to us all early on in this thread, to start a grassroots effort to mask up.

I meant we as in the state and HSE.

Wibbs · 08-05-2020 11:38AM

Yes: other

drunkmonkey wrote: »

If you need to wear a mask you shouldn't be out in the first place, we've done a pretty good job without masks and the ideal scenario is we keep it under control without all citizens required to wear masks outside in the fresh air.

Back on the wind up I see. 1) we haven't done "a pretty good job" compared to many, all but one who mandated masks(Greece, who had the strictest lockdown in Europe and very tight border control earlier). We have ten times more dead than the Czech Republic. 2) Nobody has suggested "all citizens required to wear masks outside in the fresh air". Please point out where they have, or continue your trolling. Maybe throw in another invented personal anecdote for the craic.

BoatMad · 08-05-2020 11:43AM

No: other

we haven't done "a pretty good job" compared to many

true , but actually most countries have very low numbers , ireland is about 5-6 worse off nations per million, This more then likely means that basic SD works , but not much else

Wibbs · 08-05-2020 12:08PM

Yes: other

BoatMad wrote: »

true , but actually most countries have very low numbers , ireland is about 5-6 worse off nations per million, This more then likely means that basic SD works , but not much else

Well if a nation like the UK has done terribly badly with over 30,000 dead so far and other nations have done very much better; South Korea, Taiwan, Czech republic, Greece, Hong Kong then clearly something more than just social distancing works better. Tightening borders, quarantine protocols, social distancing, testing, contact tracing, masks, shutting down schools and other public spaces make for the differences. Of that lot social distancing and the closing of schools and businesses were about the only thing we did well enough in. The rest we either haven't done, did late, or did badly. We should be grateful for our low population densities, because without them the numbers would likely have been much worse. And we're nowhere clear of it yet.

BoatMad · 08-05-2020 12:11PM

No: other

Wibbs wrote: »

Well if a nation like the UK has done terribly badly with over 30,000 dead so far and other nations have done very much better; South Korea, Taiwan, Czech republic, Greece, Hong Kong then clearly something more than just social distancing works better. Tightening borders, quarantine protocols, social distancing, testing, contact tracing, masks, shutting down schools and other public spaces make for the differences. Of that lot social distancing and the closing of schools and businesses were about the only thing we did well enough in. The rest we either haven't done, did late, or did badly. We should be grateful for our low population densities, because without them the numbers would likely have been much worse. And we're nowhere clear of it yet.

Its clear from the Swedish , dutch and even the US , that basic social distancing as a balance between deaths and destroying the economy seems effective.

whether its over of not , we need to start lifting this lockdown , channel all the coined payments in more ICU beds and gearing up for a spike, but at least try and get the economy working before its all gone

no point the cure being worse then the disease

Wibbs · 08-05-2020 12:25PM

Yes: other

BoatMad wrote: »

Its clear from the Swedish , dutch and even the US , that basic social distancing as a balance between deaths and destroying the economy seems effective.

whether its over of not , we need to start lifting this lockdown , channel all the coined payments in more ICU beds and gearing up for a spike, but at least try and get the economy working before its all gone

no point the cure being worse then the disease

It's than not then. Christ that one winds me up. Anyway...

The economy won't magically go away. People are still around and they'll need and provide goods and services as before. The economy doom mongers don't seem to get this basic fact.

Secondly the whole world is affected by this, it's not one country overspending in a boom or anything like that causing a recession. Or a stock market wobble. Indeed while the market has had a few wobbles up and down it is largely doing pretty ok during this. No brokers heaving themselves out of 10th floor Wall Street windows yet.

Thirdly economies are largely based on basic human confidence, confidence to spend and invest. Watching figures of dead climb like a bastard on a daily basis does anything but inspire confidence. This is already being seen in the UK where a large percentage of Britons are afraid to go back to work, or even go outside. They'll be slow to both buy and produce.

Fourthly you've completely avoided responding to my points about how to reduce the numbers of dead, or maybe you quite simply don't give a fcuk, so long as you're alright? There seems to be a lot of that going around of late and it's get feck all to do with the "economy".

ednwireland · 08-05-2020 12:34PM

No: other

i have my respro cycling mask washed and ready to go ! valves in milton as we speak !

BoatMad · 08-05-2020 12:45PM

No: other

Wibbs wrote: »

It's than not then. Christ that one winds me up. Anyway...

The economy won't magically go away. People are still around and they'll need and provide goods and services as before. The economy doom mongers don't seem to get this basic fact.

Secondly the whole world is affected by this, it's not one country overspending in a boom or anything like that causing a recession. Or a stock market wobble. Indeed while the market has had a few wobbles up and down it is largely doing pretty ok during this. No brokers heaving themselves out of 10th floor Wall Street windows yet.

Thirdly economies are largely based on basic human confidence, confidence to spend and invest. Watching figures of dead climb like a bastard on a daily basis does anything but inspire confidence. This is already being seen in the UK where a large percentage of Britons are afraid to go back to work, or even go outside. They'll be slow to both buy and produce.

Fourthly you've completely avoided responding to my points about how to reduce the numbers of dead, or maybe you quite simply don't give a fcuk, so long as you're alright? There seems to be a lot of that going around of late and it's get feck all to do with the "economy".

than , this, them and those

every society puts a number , a value on human life , every-time we allow cars on the road , we take a basic decision to value economic and societal benefits against potential deaths

hence , again , we have the RIP.ie study, which shows that deaths in many counties are below the peak 2017/2018 flu season

its a cheap shot to contend that because I might have a different view , I dont care about deaths

I do, but we cannot wreck the country to save everyone from dying

Away With The Fairies · 08-05-2020 01:16PM

Yes: valved

ednwireland wrote: »

i have my respro cycling mask washed and ready to go ! valves in milton as we speak !

Aren't masks with valves bad?

Wibbs · 08-05-2020 01:28PM

Yes: other

Away With The Fairies wrote: »

Aren't masks with valves bad?

If you're looking to protect others yes, but I've given up on that tbh. It will only work if it's a mass community thing and that's highly unlikely at this stage. Our government covering their arses as usual have stated they will never make it a mandatory thing only an advisory.

So I now look to protect myself, so gave up on the cloth/surgical mask angle and wear an N95 or higher when in any indoor public setting like shops(I'd go higher in a public transport/taxi setting).

Away With The Fairies · 08-05-2020 01:36PM

Yes: valved

Wibbs wrote: »

If you're looking to protect others yes, but I've given up on that tbh. It will only work if it's a mass community thing and that's highly unlikely at this stage. Our government covering their arses as usual have stated they will never make it a mandatory thing only an advisory.

So I now look to protect myself, so gave up on the cloth/surgical mask angle and wear an N95 or higher when in any indoor public setting like shops(I'd go higher in a public transport/taxi setting).

You're dead right in your thinking. Where can I get n95 masks, are they difficult to come by?

BoatMad · 08-05-2020 01:41PM

No: other

Away With The Fairies wrote: »

You're dead right in your thinking. Where can I get n95 masks, are they difficult to come by?

an N95 mask is a PM2,5 dust filter thats all , before this , commonly sold for wordworking etc

A cloth mask with two layers of kitchen paper, has about the 95% effectiveness as a N95 mask

remember , a mask is to prevent you , as a carrier from inflecting others , its largely useless against preventing you from getting the inflection .

drunkmonkey · 08-05-2020 01:48PM

No: other

Wibbs, it was never about saving your life. Unless your a soft target or put yourself in risky situations you don't need a mask, it's a personal decision, definitely think it shouldn't be mandated, I'd prefer they check your tempature before letting you into a store and report you if your hot.
I'm not trolling my opinion on masks is just different to yours. Would you go for a pint with a mask?

railer201 · 08-05-2020 02:08PM

Yes: valved

There's next to no one wearing masks of any description in public AFAICS. Over the last few days, I've been out on the bike in the Clontarf area, N. Dublin and I've spotted about half a dozen other masks, bar my own.

It's not surprising, after listening to wishy washy Leo again, on Newstalk, trying to please everyone in the audience and talking about masks in the vaguest manner possible - 'perhaps maybe in instances where social distancing isn't possible'.

So, in essence we have no clear leadership on the issue, no one pushing it and of course then, no one wearing them.

I'll continue wearing the three layer cotton ones I've made up, c/w nose bridge to give a relatively close fit, BUT I see now I'm wearing it more for myself than for others. You never know when you're going to bump into this invisible enemy so better safe than 'brown bread'.

Mike3287 · 08-05-2020 02:23PM

BoatMad wrote: »

an N95 mask is a PM2,5 dust filter thats all , before this , commonly sold for wordworking etc

A cloth mask with two layers of kitchen paper, has about the 95% effectiveness as a N95 mask

remember , a mask is to prevent you , as a carrier from inflecting others , its largely useless against preventing you from getting the inflection .

Course they protect you

N95 with a face shield for a few euro is the way to go, even a surgical mask with a face shield is effective

https://www.acmeblinds.com/faceshield?pid=25

Wibbs · 08-05-2020 02:23PM

Yes: other

BoatMad wrote: »

an N95 mask is a PM2,5 dust filter thats all , before this , commonly sold for wordworking etc

A cloth mask with two layers of kitchen paper, has about the 95% effectiveness as a N95 mask

remember , a mask is to prevent you , as a carrier from inflecting others , its largely useless against preventing you from getting the inflection .

Nope. Again the confidence of ignorance, though its seems the mantra of "I protect you, you protect me" is getting through. It wasn't a few weeks back. Does show keeping it simple is best too. Nuance tends to be lost.

Anyway, what masks do doctors wear in wards with high viral loads in the environment and when performing intubations and similarly risky procedures on Covid19 patients where the risks of droplet infection are very high? Here's a hint.

N95/FFP2 masks a go go. Apparently "largely useless" and a "dust filter thats all". Particulate filter is the description and guess what viral particles are? Well in this case it's about droplets that contain them, in sizes above N95 filtering. You can go higher N99/FFP3, but they're bulky and some seem to have difficulty breathing for long through them. Surgical masks are the basic level of medical filtration, though in studies into flu spread from the infected to the healthy they didn't find that much of a difference between them and N95/FFP2. However they both reduced risk. Even the HSE state this. Though a more recent study into the difference showed that N95 protection was nearly double that of basic surgical masks, in influenza transmission anyway.

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I'd prefer they check your tempature before letting you into a store and report you if your hot.

You're still not getting the asymptomatic spread bit. Without symptoms, including fever. By the time you have a fever you've been potentially spreading the virus for days at least. If you remain asymptomatic that could be weeks. If this wasn't an issue quarantine wouldn't be required, or would only require a day or two, not 14+. You'd be symptomatic when shedding virus and being infectious so could be quarantined on the spot.

I'm not trolling my opinion on masks is just different to yours. Would you go for a pint with a mask?

Pubs are going to be a long time in coming. Would you ignore social distancing going for a pint?

BoatMad · 08-05-2020 02:27PM

No: other

Would you ignore social distancing going for a pint?

yes actually.

BoatMad · 08-05-2020 02:29PM

No: other

Anyway, what masks do doctors wear in wards with high viral loads in the environment and when performing intubations and similarly risky procedures on Covid19 patients where the risks of droplet infection are very high? Here's a hint.

My friend is such a person

They wear full protective clothing ( a body suit ) a high quality mask , a face shield or goggles and disposable gloves, they have received extensive training in PPE and have a buddy system to ensure its all on correctly

its not the same as slapping a woodworking dust mask on your face

BoatMad · 08-05-2020 02:32PM

No: other

FFP2 masks have a minimum of 94% filtration percentage and maximum 8% leakage to the inside. They are mainly used in construction, agriculture, and by healthcare professionals against influenza viruses. They are currently used for protection against the coronavirus.

EN149:2001 FFP2 This is the EU standard and its a one time non reusable mask

Seanergy · 08-05-2020 02:32PM

Yes: valved

BoatMad wrote: »

My friend is such a person

They wear full protective clothing ( a body suit ) a high quality mask , a face shield or goggles and disposable gloves, they have received extensive training in PPE and have a buddy system to ensure its all on correctly

its not the same as slapping a woodworking dust mask on your face

Wearing a mask to protect others is a buddy system.

UrbanFret · 08-05-2020 02:34PM

Yes: homemade

BoatMad wrote: »

an N95 mask is a PM2,5 dust filter thats all , before this , commonly sold for wordworking etc

A cloth mask with two layers of kitchen paper, has about the 95% effectiveness as a N95 mask

remember , a mask is to prevent you , as a carrier from inflecting others , its largely useless against preventing you from getting the inflection .

Couldn't be more wrong.:rolleyes:

BoatMad · 08-05-2020 02:37PM

No: other

UrbanFret wrote: »

Couldn't be more wrong.:rolleyes:

https://fastlifehacks.com/n95-vs-ffp/#What_are_respirators_protecting_us_against

BoatMad · 08-05-2020 02:40PM

No: other

and this give a comparison of common material used as a substitute

https://www.businessinsider.com/the-materials-that-filter-particles-best-in-homemade-masks-testing-2020-4?r=US&IR=T

Masks

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