The 350 a week was a catastrophic and costly mistake

Fred Cryton · 08-05-2020 12:34pm #1

No other country made people better off on welfare than when they had been working. 500,000 people are now better off taking the 350 and sitting on their backsides than they had been before this crisis when working. It's going to be enormously difficult to get these people back into the workforce now. Any politician trying to reduce the payment to incentivise work will be branded a right wing thatcherite by the usual suspects.

Who's going to go back to a minimum wage job 20 hours a week when they can earn nearly double that from the taxpayer while not having to work? This will starve businesses of much needed workers just when they need to get back going.

The costs to the exchequer are enormous. We could build a new hospital every month with the amount of money this is costing the state. Did anyone think of this? We have Regina Doherty, mother goose of the nation herself, to thank for this mess.

The key question is WHY IS IRELAND DOING THINGS DIFFERENTLY TO OTHER NATIONS?. When you have to ask this question, you know we've c**ked up.

BoatMad · 08-05-2020 12:36pm

Fred Cryton wrote: »

No other country made people better off on welfare than when they had been working. 500,000 people are now better off taking the 350 and sitting on their backsides than they had been before this crisis when working. It's going to be enormously difficult to get these people back into the workforce now. Any politician trying to reduce the payment to incentivise work will be branded a right wing thatcherite by the usual suspects.

Who's going to go back to a minimum wage job 20 hours a week when they can earn nearly double that from the taxpayer while not having to work? This will starve businesses of much needed workers just when they need to get back going.

The costs to the exchequer are enormous. We could build a new hospital every month with the amount of money this is costing the state. Did anyone think of this? We have Regina Doherty, mother goose of the nation herself, to thank for this mess.

The key question is WHY IS IRELAND DOING THINGS DIFFERENTLY TO OTHER NATIONS?. When you have to ask this question, you know we've c**ked up.

the UK has very generous supports at present

HeidiHeidi · 08-05-2020 12:37pm

Fred Cryton wrote: »

500,000 people are now better off taking the 350 and sitting on their backsides than they had been before this crisis when working.

Where did you get this figure, out of interest?

Fred Cryton · 08-05-2020 12:37pm

BoatMad wrote: »

the UK has very generous supports at present

They tie it to the salary earned before the crisis. There is no equivalent of a flat payment of 350.

Outkast_IRE · 08-05-2020 12:38pm

I would say the complete opposite . This temporary payment will reduce people getting into debt during this time . This increased payment is mostly for people who were legally working and are now unemployed through no fault of their own.

By giving this payment now we are placing people in a good position to spend when the economy reopens . They will spend in restaurants bars and hotels all of which are labour intensive industries which will boost employment fast.

Educate yourself on economics , listen to some podcasts such as David McWilliams .

BoatMad · 08-05-2020 12:39pm

Fred Cryton wrote: »

They tie it to the salary earned before the crisis. There is no equivalent of a flat payment of 350.

ours is banded , and if you earn 80,000 before , you get nothing

Seamai · 08-05-2020 12:40pm

I'm certainly not better off on €350, I'm down almost €250 a week for the last 7 weeks.

Fred Cryton · 08-05-2020 12:41pm

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

I would say the complete opposite . This temporary payment will reduce people getting into debt during this time . This increased payment is mostly for people who were legally working and are now unemployed through no fault of their own.

By giving this payment now we are placing people in a good position to spend when the economy reopens . They will spend in restaurants bars and hotels all of which are labour intensive industries which will boost employment fast.

Educate yourself on economics , listen to some podcasts such as David McWilliams .

I have a Masters in the subject, thanks so much. McWilliams is a charaltan and a spoofer, yeah free money into everyones account. Sure why not make everyone a millionaire so, what could possibly go wrong.

Blaze420 · 08-05-2020 12:41pm

Fred Cryton wrote: »

They tie it to the salary earned before the crisis. There is no equivalent of a flat payment of 350.

You do know it's a temporary payment and won't be around forever?

Plumbthedepths · 08-05-2020 12:41pm

Fred Cryton wrote: »

No other country made people better off on welfare than when they had been working. 500,000 people are now better off taking the 350 and sitting on their backsides than they had been before this crisis when working. It's going to be enormously difficult to get these people back into the workforce now. Any politician trying to reduce the payment to incentivise work will be branded a right wing thatcherite by the usual suspects.

Who's going to go back to a minimum wage job 20 hours a week when they can earn nearly double that from the taxpayer while not having to work? This will starve businesses of much needed workers just when they need to get back going.

The costs to the exchequer are enormous. We could build a new hospital every month with the amount of money this is costing the state. Did anyone think of this? We have Regina Doherty, mother goose of the nation herself, to thank for this mess.

The key question is WHY IS IRELAND DOING THINGS DIFFERENTLY TO OTHER NATIONS?. When you have to ask this question, you know we've c**ked up.

Do you know what 'temporary measure' means?

JohnnyFlash · 08-05-2020 12:42pm

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

Educate yourself on economics , listen to some podcasts such as David McWilliams .

Bit of an oxymoron there.

Fred Cryton · 08-05-2020 12:42pm

HeidiHeidi wrote: »

Where did you get this figure, out of interest?

This is number of part time workers in the economy who earned less than 350 a week pre-crisis. Publicly available information, you shouldn't have to ask. You should have looked it up yourself.

Fred Cryton · 08-05-2020 12:43pm

Blaze420 wrote: »

You do know it's a temporary payment and won't be around forever?

Is that like the way the USC was supposed to be a temporary tax?

The usual suspects will try to make 350 the new baseline for welfare payments.

El Gato De Negocios · 08-05-2020 12:44pm

Fred Cryton wrote: »

No other country made people better off on welfare than when they had been working. 500,000 people are now better off taking the 350 and sitting on their backsides than they had been before this crisis when working. It's going to be enormously difficult to get these people back into the workforce now. Any politician trying to reduce the payment to incentivise work will be branded a right wing thatcherite by the usual suspects.

Who's going to go back to a minimum wage job 20 hours a week when they can earn nearly double that from the taxpayer while not having to work? This will starve businesses of much needed workers just when they need to get back going.

The costs to the exchequer are enormous. We could build a new hospital every month with the amount of money this is costing the state. Did anyone think of this? We have Regina Doherty, mother goose of the nation herself, to thank for this mess.

The key question is WHY IS IRELAND DOING THINGS DIFFERENTLY TO OTHER NATIONS?. When you have to ask this question, you know we've c**ked up.

Some people are better off ie those working part time hours.

Some will break even or there abouts.

Some will be worse off.

The figure of 500,000 you are touting is waaaaaaay off and besides, the payment is not there for good, it has a shelf life and one would suspect that those that want to return to work and have the opportunity to do so will return to work.

Outkast_IRE · 08-05-2020 12:44pm

Fred Cryton wrote: »

I have a Masters in the subject, thanks so much. McWilliams is a charaltan and a spoofer, yeah free money into everyones account. Sure why not make everyone a millionaire so, what could possibly go wrong.

A master's means little without real life experience to back it up . Your austerity policy would doom us to a significant elongated recessionary period.

The fact you call him a charaltan and a spoofer just tells me you don't want to consider opinions that are contrary to your own . Debate in this thread with you is a pointless task as you mind is made.

Plumbthedepths · 08-05-2020 12:45pm

Fred Cryton wrote: »

I have a Masters in the subject, thanks so much. McWilliams is a charaltan and a spoofer, yeah free money into everyones account. Sure why not make everyone a millionaire so, what could possibly go wrong.

You have a master's in Economics? Why do I find it hard too believe you?

Blaze420 · 08-05-2020 12:45pm

Fred Cryton wrote: »

Is that like the way the USC was supposed to be a temporary tax?

The usual suspects will try to make 350 the new baseline for welfare payments.

That's just tinfoil hat stuff - a welfare payment of that level is not sustainable and is an emergency measure only.

Mrs OBumble · 08-05-2020 12:46pm

People who were only getting 20 hours a week before were almost certainly already getting partial benefit topup anyway, via X and 0's.

SteM · 08-05-2020 12:47pm

Fred Cryton wrote: »

Is that like the way the USC was supposed to be a temporary tax?

The usual suspects will try to make 350 the new baseline for welfare payments.

The USC is income that the country came to rely on. This temporary payment is an outgoing that it cannot possible afford in the medium or long term. Why would you compare the two?

Outkast_IRE · 08-05-2020 12:47pm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

People who were only getting 20 hours a week before were almost certainly already getting partial benefit topup anyway, via X and 0's.

On top of this people who were part time and now have a few extra quid will spend it , they aren't burying it in savings as they were not high earners . All beneficial to the economy

Cal4567 · 08-05-2020 12:48pm

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

I would say the complete opposite . This temporary payment will reduce people getting into debt during this time . This increased payment is mostly for people who were legally working and are now unemployed through no fault of their own.

By giving this payment now we are placing people in a good position to spend when the economy reopens . They will spend in restaurants bars and hotels all of which are labour intensive industries which will boost employment fast.

Educate yourself on economics , listen to some podcasts such as David McWilliams .

Agree with all of this. A very sensible move given that people had to get out of their offices, their factories etc and get home and stay at home, with very little notice. Yes, it has to be reduced in line with re-opening but there is enough evidence out there that the lower the income you have, the more is spent and put back into the economy.

It's not just us in Ireland who are suffering. We are literally in this together with most of the rest of the world. I'm confident we will have an international stimulus plan, the only query at the moment, is when that will be.

barneystinson · 08-05-2020 12:48pm

Fred Cryton wrote: »

This is number of part time workers in the economy who earned less than 350 a week pre-crisis. Publicly available information, you shouldn't have to ask. You should have looked it up yourself.

If you’ve a masters you should definitely know you need to cite reputable sources when making assertions. It’s all just spoof otherwise :pac:

Fred Cryton · 08-05-2020 12:49pm

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

A master's means little without real life experience to back it up . Your austerity policy would doom us to a significant elongated recessionary period.

The fact you call him a charaltan and a spoofer just tells me you don't want to consider opinions that are contrary to your own . Debate in this thread with you is a pointless task as you mind is made.

What's your real life experience? Come to think of it, what's David McWilliams real life experience. I believe he worked in a bank in London for a few years, wow. He must be so wise.

It's not austerity. If not working, people should have been getting the 200 per week. As normal. People on low wages pay very little tax anyway.

BoatMad · 08-05-2020 12:50pm

It's not just us in Ireland who are suffering. We are literally in this together with most of the rest of the world. I'm confident we will have an international stimulus plan, the only query at the moment, is when that will be.

there is no evidence of any form of " international " cooperation and every evidence of a race to get out of lockdown and avoid being a tail end charlie, ( like Ireland )

2ndcoming · 08-05-2020 12:51pm

Fred Cryton wrote: »

I have a Masters in the subject, thanks so much. McWilliams is a charaltan and a spoofer, yeah free money into everyones account. Sure why not make everyone a millionaire so, what could possibly go wrong.

:pac::pac::pac:

HeidiHeidi · 08-05-2020 12:51pm

Fred Cryton wrote: »

This is number of part time workers in the economy who earned less than 350 a week pre-crisis. Publicly available information, you shouldn't have to ask. You should have looked it up yourself.

Seeing as you're the one making the claim, how about you provide a source for it?

Outkast_IRE · 08-05-2020 12:54pm

Has to be a troll. Nobody with an economics masters and some real life experience could realistically be so simple

Mr_Muffin · 08-05-2020 12:57pm

I don't get the payment as I'm still working, but I'm glad we live in a country that can, and does, give such a payment.

Sure, many people are in a better position now they would have been, but it's temporary. Also, no one knew how this whole virus situation was going to unfold and as a result, it was easier/more efficient in the short term to give a blanked payment of 350 euro than to quickly come up with some sort of means test or similar test to decide who gets what.

BoatMad · 08-05-2020 12:59pm

Fred Cryton wrote: »

I have a Masters in the subject, thanks so much. McWilliams is a charaltan and a spoofer, yeah free money into everyones account. Sure why not make everyone a millionaire so, what could possibly go wrong.

no but in a fiat currency , facing deflation and negative interest rates , it makes simple sense to helicopter money directly into peoples hands , you taper it back as inflation rises ( some inflation is better then deflation )

RandomViewer · 08-05-2020 1:03pm

Seamai wrote: »

I'm certainly not better off on €350, I'm down almost €250 a week for the last 7 weeks.

Same here, the OP seems to think everyone is part time , minimum wage

yerwanthere123 · 08-05-2020 1:03pm

Death, taxes and boards.ie keyboard warriors stirring up faux outrage about the unemployed.

An Ri rua · 08-05-2020 1:05pm

SteM wrote: »

The USC is income that the country came to rely on. This temporary payment is an outgoing that it cannot possible afford in the medium or long term. Why would you compare the two?

Its complicated. Probably something to do with having a Masters in Economics. But not in grammar and syntax. Online college, was it?? God help us all

topper75 · 08-05-2020 1:06pm

"Hundreds of workers who left Ireland after the coronavirus outbreak have had their attempts to claim a weekly €350 Covid-19 unemployment payment foiled."

according to extra .ie.
Mostly Brazilians.

An Ri rua · 08-05-2020 1:07pm

Fred Cryton wrote: »

What's your real life experience? Come to think of it, what's David McWilliams real life experience. I believe he worked in a bank in London for a few years, wow. He must be so wise.

It's not austerity. If not working, people should have been getting the 200 per week. As normal. People on low wages pay very little tax anyway.

And a bank in Dublin for a while. A central one. Look it up! Publicly available information

Rotweiler · 08-05-2020 1:07pm

Looking at UK, Canada, Germany and many more, we are even very naive on that help.
Those above go for a second round help and believe me or not, Ireland must stop being conservative about the budget.
Ireland gave a steep increase in growth last 5 6 years and this never went back to the public as proper roads, broadband, commuting and healthcare. Therefore, where is this money?

BoatMad · 08-05-2020 1:10pm

Rotweiler wrote: »

Looking at UK, Canada, Germany and many more, we are even very naive on that help.
Those above go for a second round help and believe me or not, Ireland must stop being conservative about the budget.
Ireland gave a steep increase in growth last 5 6 years and this never went back to the public as proper roads, broadband, commuting and healthcare. Therefore, where is this money?

4billon suplus , planning in spending it on hospitals , broadband , etc etc etc , or have you been under a rock, now a predicted 24 billon deficit

listermint · 08-05-2020 1:10pm

Fred Cryton wrote: »

I have a Masters in the subject, thanks so much. McWilliams is a charaltan and a spoofer, yeah free money into everyones account. Sure why not make everyone a millionaire so, what could possibly go wrong.

No one with a master's in economics would phrase their opening post like that.

I call shenanigans

1o059k7ewrqj3n · 08-05-2020 1:10pm

Have some sympathy for the long-term unemployed on 200 a week before the corona virus showed up. They showed amazing loyalty and tenacity to stay out of work, and how are they rewarded? :pac:

Mrs OBumble · 08-05-2020 1:10pm

Mr_Muffin wrote: »

I don't get the payment as I'm still working, but I'm glad we live in a country that can, and does, give such a payment.

Sure, many people are in a better position now they would have been, but it's temporary. Also, no one knew how this whole virus situation was going to unfold and as a result, it was easier/more efficient in the short term to give a blanked payment of 350 euro than to quickly come up with some sort of means test or similar test to decide who gets what.

Indeed.

And most people would have ended up with the equivalent of more than 350 once you added in dependents, medical cards, HAP etc.

Yes there are a few doing better. But that is rhe price of a rapidly implemented solution for bulk numbers of people. It will be fixed soon enough.

BoatMad · 08-05-2020 1:11pm

listermint wrote: »

No one with a master's in economics would phrase their opening post like that.

I call shenanigans

Masters are just a little up from undergraduate , they know very little

listermint · 08-05-2020 1:13pm

BoatMad wrote: »

Masters are just a little up from undergraduate , they know very little

I'd argue that you're completely wrong. To get a master's you have to perform the action of research and be capable of presenting an argument with verifiable sources.

The OP hasn't done any of this in any posts here. It's hyperbole.

Ergo I call shenanigans.

Rotweiler · 08-05-2020 1:14pm

BoatMad wrote: »

4billon suplus , planning in spending it on hospitals , broadband , etc etc etc , or have you been under a rock, now a predicted 24 billon deficit

I was not and I see no "solid" plans that this is done.

How long have you been waiting for those above to be improved? And how long you think it will take again?

Do you want me to example you with the similar projects in other countries from proposal to execution timelines?

listermint · 08-05-2020 1:15pm

Rotweiler wrote: »
I was not and I see no "solid" plans that this is done.

How long have you been waiting for those above to be improved? And how long you think it will take again?

Do you want me to example you with the similar projects in other countries from proposal to execution timelines?

Evidently you are living under a rock. The national broadband plan is underway as I type this there are engineers off surveyor entire counties for fibre runs.

RocketRaccoon · 08-05-2020 1:16pm

You do know the €350 won't last forever.... Or until the end of the summer.

Me personally, I have been glad of it as it has allowed me to continue to pay my rent and bills without struggling. I will also be back to work at the first possible opportunity as will the vast majority who have been in receipt of this payment.

listermint · 08-05-2020 1:17pm

RocketRaccoon wrote: »

You do know the €350 won't last forever.... Or until the end of the summer.

Me personally, I have been glad of it as it has allowed me to continue to pay my rent and bills without struggling. I will also be back to work at the first possible opportunity as will the vast majority who have been in receipt of this payment.

And therefore allow the recipient's of those payments continue to employ their staff.

This isn't money wasted as is the suggestion of 'masters' op

howamidifferent · 08-05-2020 1:17pm

Rotweiler wrote: »

Looking at UK, Canada, Germany and many more, we are even very naive on that help.
Those above go for a second round help and believe me or not, Ireland must stop being conservative about the budget.
Ireland gave a steep increase in growth last 5 6 years and this never went back to the public as proper roads, broadband, commuting and healthcare. Therefore, where is this money?

Spent on welfare and pensions.

LuasSimon · 08-05-2020 1:18pm

If you were working for Larry Goodman or Keelings on minimum wage a 39 hour week you’d do well to clear 350 a week . Those people and part time workers are definitely better off but how many does this cover ? Hardly 500K , more like 200k I’d have thought .

Rumours the 350 been reduced to 300 after 12 weeks

Brock Turnpike · 08-05-2020 1:20pm

Who are the "usual suspects" you keep referring to? Name them, and stop beating around the bush.

Panic Stations · 08-05-2020 1:21pm

Fred Cryton wrote: »

I have a Masters in the subject, thanks so much. McWilliams is a charaltan and a spoofer, yeah free money into everyones account. Sure why not make everyone a millionaire so, what could possibly go wrong.

The fact he needed to actually mention this says a lot already

Collie D · 08-05-2020 1:22pm

Brock Turnpike wrote: »

Who are the "usual suspects" you keep referring to? Name them, and stop beating around the bush.

Well he has already started threads on teachers and those in receipt of the subsidy so it’s likely to be someone else who is getting something while he’s not.

Next thread: Old duffers hogging Dublin parks in the afternoon.

StupidLikeAFox · 08-05-2020 1:23pm

Worth pointing out that the €350 payment is taxable income also so the government will be getting back somewhere between ~20% and ~50% of that depending on the persons circumstances. I'd say that will be a land for some people who think they are getting free money. The likes of taxback.ie are going to be having a lot of awkward conversations when people request a review of their tax for this year if their Covid payment hasn't been factored in to their PAYE credits

The 350 a week was a catastrophic and costly mistake

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