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Covid19 Part XVII-24,841 in ROI (1,639 deaths) 4,679 in NI (518 deaths)(28/05)Read OP

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  • #1262
    lawrencesummers
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,786 ✭✭✭lawrencesummers


    Psychedelic Hedgehog wrote: »
    It’s the whole Y2K story all over again. Huge effort was expended to avoid disaster, disaster was successfully avoided, and then you had some arguing what all the fuss was about.

    What disaster was avoided with y2k?


  • #1263
    Psychedelic Hedgehog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 486 ✭✭Psychedelic Hedgehog


    lawrencesummers wrote: »
    What disaster was avoided with y2k?

    Point proven. Do some research please.


  • #1264
    Seven Septs
    Closed Accounts Posts: 145 ✭✭Seven Septs


    GeorgeBailey wrote: »
    We're in the middle of the second wave at the minute

    Oh you must be Dr. George Bailey, the famous epidemiologist. Jesus it's great meeting you on boards. Taking your time out from the front to post on an average online site.


  • #1265
    caveat emptor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,134 ✭✭✭caveat emptor


    Hope is alive. Seems the Chinese have quite a good vaccine candidate. No conspiracy chat. Here’s hoping.

    https://twitter.com/peterhotez/status/1258539885721382915?s=21


  • #1266
    Goldengirl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,852 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl


    martingriff wrote: »
    Watch all who get low points or do not get into a college place due to the predictive marks be up in arms. The first will be that student who got "over 26 thousand names" on an online petition

    Shouldn't be too hard to get place, won't be too many international students.
    Big worry would be will they put up the cost if registration fees to make up the difference? If not this year then next?


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  • #1267
    fritzelly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,114 ✭✭✭✭fritzelly


    caveat emptor wrote: »
    Hope is alive. Seems the Chinese have quite a good vaccine candidate. No conspiracy chat. Here’s hoping.

    https://twitter.com/peterhotez/status/1258539885721382915?s=21

    Another non human trial - until there is irrefutable proof that a vaccine works in humans I will continue to take all these miracle vaccines with a large pinch of salt


  • #1268
    caveat emptor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,134 ✭✭✭caveat emptor


    fritzelly wrote: »
    Another non human trial - until there is irrefutable proof that a vaccine works in humans I will continue to take all these miracle vaccines with a large pinch of salt

    Yeah monkey see monkey do. Hopefully now that it has worked on our cousine means it’ll work on us. We are essentially the same except for our sense of entitlement.


  • #1269
    US2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,651 ✭✭✭US2


    If a vaccine came out , is it possible to make it mandatory? I know they cant hold you down and jab you with it, but maybe exclusion from gatherings ect ?


  • #1270
    MOR316
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,243 ✭✭✭MOR316


    US2 wrote: »
    If a vaccine came out , is it possible to make it mandatory? I know they cant hold you down and jab you with it, but maybe exclusion from gatherings ect ?

    That opens an entirely different can of worms and one I would never dream of considering.

    Remember the abortion referendum? Her body, her choice? Yeah, it's the same principle. It's a fundamental basic human right.

    Also, "exclusion from gatherings" would go against the entire mental health campaign and it would practically be a medically induced apartheid.

    You really do not want to go down that road


  • #1271
    fritzelly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,114 ✭✭✭✭fritzelly


    caveat emptor wrote: »
    Yeah monkey see monkey do. Hopefully now that it has worked on our cousine means it’ll work on us. We are essentially the same except for our sense of entitlement.

    And yet that tiny genetic difference resulted in a completely different species
    Just because a small trial worked does not mean it will have the same effect in humans
    We're just as similar genetically to rats

    There is a reason vaccines typically take years to create


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  • #1272
    mandrake04
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,435 ✭✭✭mandrake04


    owlbethere wrote: »
    It's said that 80% of people will get a mild dose and when they say mild, it means not needing hospitalisation. 20% will need the hospital.

    Even a mild dose reads dreadful. Have a read of this:

    https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2020/05/05/paul-garner-people-who-have-a-more-protracted-illness-need-help-to-understand-and-cope-with-the-constantly-shifting-bizarre-symptoms/?utm_campaign=shareaholic&utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=socialnetwork

    Its from a doctor whos seven weeks suffering at home. He said it doesn't feel like a post viral fatigue and it is the disease.

    Its read to be so scary. It's so important to stay on board with these restrictions and to stay on course form the road map laid out by the government.

    I work in medical diagnostics mostly Tomography and talking to Radiologists and doctors they do not know the long term effects of covid19, but even cases where you are not hospitalised you can still have a condition called GGO which is damaging to the lungs.

    They reckon it could potentially shave 5-10 years off your life span, although this wont be known until much further down the line no one knows. I suppose its like any old injury that gives you jip down the line, a gammy knee you can probably live with but repeated problems in the respiratory system can definitely knock you around. This also can have a potential economic effect when it comes to health systems in the future as the health fallout from this pandemic could be around for years this is where I believe worries the government the most.

    Also the mild cases that are asymptomatic it could be that those cases might not have had much fight maybe didn't produce enough antibodies to provide immunity and potentially they could for better words get infected again maybe more seriously. We just don't know.

    I'm basically on the front line and I take all the precautions and im certainly not running out looking to catch this thing if I can help it that's for sure.


  • #1273
    s1ippy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,980 ✭✭✭s1ippy


    Ms2011 wrote: »
    I only said the same to my husband when I came home from shopping this morning. Stupid mask kept slipping up and blocking my vision so had to keep adjusting it, definitely had to put my hand to my face more with the mask on than if I wasn't wearing one.
    Do not wear single use masks unless trained to do so. You are wasting a mask and potentially putting yourself at greater risk of infection due to the exact scenario you just mentioned.

    There is training you can do through the HSE Website to show you how to put on PPE.
    https://www.hseland.ie/dash/Account/Login

    Create an account and look at the PPE training videos. They're not long and they show you how to fit the mask to your face.


  • #1274
    owlbethere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,329 ✭✭✭owlbethere


    mandrake04 wrote: »
    I work in medical diagnostics mostly Tomography and talking to Radiologists and doctors they do not know the long term effects of covid19, but even cases where you are not hospitalised you can still have a condition called GGO which is damaging to the lungs.

    They reckon it could potentially shave 5-10 years off your life span, although this wont be known until much further down the line no one knows. I suppose its like any old injury that gives you jip down the line, a gammy knee you can probably live with but repeated problems in the respiratory system can definitely knock you around. This also can have a potential economic effect when it comes to health systems in the future as the health fallout from this pandemic could be around for years this is where I believe worries the government the most.

    Also the mild cases that are asymptomatic it could be that those cases might not have had much fight maybe didn't produce enough antibodies to provide immunity and potentially they could for better words get infected again maybe more seriously. We just don't know.

    I'm basically on the front line and I take all the precautions and im certainly not running out looking to catch this thing if I can help it that's for sure.

    Thanks for your reply. I don't know what GGO is.

    I'm not a medical or science professional. Far from it. I was really not trying to scaremonger like what another poster quoted me. I'm trying to keep on board with news and updates. I'm following the guidelines and I'm cautious about going out into public.

    I was thinking about this, and it was long before this pieces on long term recoveries came about. We know from some doctor reports around the world, that this illness can starve the body of oxygen. I would be worried if gangrene in organs comes about. Or if it leads to an increase in cancers. We know that children who don't have symptoms and have scarring of the lungs. Will survivors have diseased organs and bodies as if they had a 80 a day smoking habit.


  • #1275
    MrDavid1976
    Closed Accounts Posts: 305 ✭✭MrDavid1976


    Arghus wrote: »
    People see it the opposite way because the restrictions worked.

    There was no surge, hospitals weren't swamped, deaths weren't out of control - because the restrictions worked. Shutting people's movements down slowed the spread of the virus.

    And now when the lockdown has done what it is has initially set out to do, some people are wondering why hospitals aren't overwhelmed and are somehow inferring that proves the restrictions were unnecessary.

    The restrictions were so effective that people aren't that concerned about the virus anymore and instead have moved on to lashing out about the lockdown. It's incredible really.

    Why is it so hard for some people to put two and two together?

    It was absolutely without a doubt the right strategy and has yielded results - and the taxpayer has spent significant funds on this. Further, the legal lock down combined with State supports also protected employees and employers (but this can only be feasible in the short term).

    But it may also be the right strategy now to ease the restrictions and perhaps ease them quicker to a new normal of social distancing and people protecting themselves.

    The public health specialists will rightfully be cautious and conservative, but other factors such as the economy (long term impact), mental well being, non-Covid illness etc. will take a more prominent role in the decision making as the underlying numbers improve.


  • #1276
    dundalkfc10
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,719 ✭✭✭dundalkfc10


    The Govt have left the elderly in Nursing Homes to die.

    The statement by Dealgan Nursing Home sums it all up, HSE came in to try fix the situation, came in done nothing and have ****ed off. Says alot

    Leo lost the plot in the Dáil yesterday in response to Mary Lou, think he is starting to lose it


  • #1277
    mandrake04
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,435 ✭✭✭mandrake04


    owlbethere wrote: »
    Thanks for your reply. I don't know what GGO is.

    I'm not a medical or science professional. Far from it. I was really not trying to scaremonger like what another poster quoted me. I'm trying to keep on board with news and updates. I'm following the guidelines and I'm cautious about going out into public.

    I was thinking about this, and it was long before this pieces on long term recoveries came about. We know from some doctor reports around the world, that this illness can starve the body of oxygen. I would be worried if gangrene in organs comes about. Or if it leads to an increase in cancers. We know that children who don't have symptoms and have scarring of the lungs. Will survivors have diseased organs and bodies as if they had a 80 a day smoking habit.


    GGO is a condition often called ground glass lung usually caused by ARDS which is distress of the lungs. This can lead to organ failure kidneys, heart etc. you body is good at healing but sometimes like a dud phone battery after it’s been obliterated it still works you never get the same capacity out of it again.

    All I’m saying is mild form of this disease rough enough, it’s best avoided and we don’t know the long term effects.


  • #1278
    Seamai
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,250 ✭✭✭Seamai


    dundalkfc10 wrote: »
    The Govt have left the elderly in Nursing Homes to die.

    The statement by Dealgan Nursing Home sums it all up, HSE came in to try fix the situation, came in done nothing and have ****ed off. Says alot

    Leo lost the plot in the Dáil yesterday in response to Mary Lou, think he is starting to lose it

    They seem to bring out the worst in each other
    They're like two kids in a school yard who wont let some grievance go even though everyone else has moved on, both always trying to have the last word. One is as bad as the other.


  • #1279
    caveat emptor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,134 ✭✭✭caveat emptor


    fritzelly wrote: »
    And yet that tiny genetic difference resulted in a completely different species
    Just because a small trial worked does not mean it will have the same effect in humans
    We're just as similar genetically to rats

    There is a reason vaccines typically take years to create


    Yeah scientists think it’s a good ‘candidate’ vaccine. Random person on the internet says we are all doomed.

    Same sh!t different day.

    Wash yours hands.


  • #1280
    hmmm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,203 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    US2 wrote: »
    If a vaccine came out , is it possible to make it mandatory? I know they cant hold you down and jab you with it, but maybe exclusion from gatherings ect ?
    Not mandatory in the sense of having to get it. But I expect you will need it to be allowed on a plane for example - some countries will already refuse entry to travellers if they don't have particular vaccines (e.g. yellow fever was one I remember). I could easily see a requirement to have it for travel into or around Europe.

    Just speculating, but it may be possible in the future for pubs and restaurants to open without social distancing if they can ensure that only vaccinated people are allowed in. What restaurant is going to want to run at 30% capacity just to provide services for a small group.

    I'm sure the anti-vaxers would complain, but the thing about Covid is that much of the risk falls on ICU staff. So while someone might not care all that much whether they get infected, by choosing to do so they are putting other people at risk.


  • #1281
    US2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,651 ✭✭✭US2


    MOR316 wrote: »
    That opens an entirely different can of worms and one I would never dream of considering.

    Remember the abortion referendum? Her body, her choice? Yeah, it's the same principle. It's a fundamental basic human right.

    Also, "exclusion from gatherings" would go against the entire mental health campaign and it would practically be a medically induced apartheid.

    You really do not want to go down that road

    I would say ingesting drugs in the comfort of my own home falls under "my body, my choice" but it doesn't work like that.


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  • #1282
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,190 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    US2 wrote: »
    If a vaccine came out , is it possible to make it mandatory? I know they cant hold you down and jab you with it, but maybe exclusion from gatherings ect ?
    There are a number of different areas of law that make this quite difficult.

    Whether it's government-mandated, or private businesses (e.g. creches) restricting people who aren't vaccinated, it touches on issues of privacy and autonomy where rights have to be balanced against one another.

    Even if you could make it work in one sphere of life, there's no guarantee it would be legal in another.

    For example, private creches might be allowed to insist that children in their care are vaccinated in order to take up a place. There is no general right to a creche, it has no constitutional imperative.
    Schools however, would probably not. The state has a constitutional obligation to ensure that all children have access to education. A bar on unvaccinated children entering a school which receives public funding, would likely fall foul of that.


    I wouldn't lay much hope at widespread vaccine uptake within 24 months anyway. After the swine flu debacle, people are going to be very suspicious of any vaccine that comes out quickly.

    I would rather risk Covid than narcolepsy, so I will be waiting for considerable amounts of safety data before committing to a vaccine.


  • #1283
    Eod100
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,150 ✭✭✭✭Eod100


    CMO on Sean O Rourke on RTE Radio 1


  • #1284
    Mike3287
    Closed Accounts Posts: 379 ✭✭Mike3287


    seamus wrote: »
    There are a number of different areas of law that make this quite difficult.

    Whether it's government-mandated, or private businesses (e.g. creches) restricting people who aren't vaccinated, it touches on issues of privacy and autonomy where rights have to be balanced against one another.

    Even if you could make it work in one sphere of life, there's no guarantee it would be legal in another.

    For example, private creches might be allowed to insist that children in their care are vaccinated in order to take up a place. There is no general right to a creche, it has no constitutional imperative.
    Schools however, would probably not. The state has a constitutional obligation to ensure that all children have access to education. A bar on unvaccinated children entering a school which receives public funding, would likely fall foul of that.


    I wouldn't lay much hope at widespread vaccine uptake within 24 months anyway. After the swine flu debacle, people are going to be very suspicious of any vaccine that comes out quickly.

    I would rather risk Covid than narcolepsy, so I will be waiting for considerable amounts of safety data before committing to a vaccine.

    Exactly

    I wouldn't be rushing to get any vaccine, never mind this one.

    Look at the stats for the health care workers here, they are at risk of a much higher viral load and at this moment in time 5 have died out of 6500 infected, still 5 too many but that puts survival rate at 99.92%

    At risk group with 80% chance of survival should probably get it, but little kids in creches with more than likely 99.9% chance of survival, should they get it?

    Should they be forced to get one? Seems over the top

    Travel is the main one, don't think i'll be flying if I am forced to get the vaccine


  • #1285
    iamwhoiam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,248 ✭✭✭✭iamwhoiam


    I am so disilluded now by the whole blessed road map .The cancelling of the LC was the last straw . If they cant even sort that out how on earth is anyone suppose to get back to work .? if the schools dont get back then many workers cannot work . Its a shambles now


  • #1286
    growleaves
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,978 ✭✭✭growleaves


    Psychedelic Hedgehog wrote: »
    It’s the whole Y2K story all over again. Huge effort was expended to avoid disaster, disaster was successfully avoided, and then you had some arguing what all the fuss was about.


    No this is totally different.

    With the lockdown, people starting by assuming that deaths would be prevented by the lockdown. Then they assumed that deaths had been prevented by the lockdown.

    People assuming the lockdown was ineffective or unnecessary are no more or less presumptuous from an objective POV.

    A scientific investigation could start with one or the another assumption, or no assumption, and (try to) collate objective evidence.

    Unfortunately for the pro-lockdown people, looking at countries that didn't lock down is one of the most obvious things to do.

    Commenters who predicted millions of deaths absent a lockdown will need to explain why Sweden and Belarus don't have their share in these millions - which would be corpses in the 100,000s, and that was predicted by some models.

    If you segue into an explanation such as "Scandanavia has different geographical and environmental factors. Look at Denmark, Norway etc." then are admitting that these particularist factors are more significant than the lockdown itself and inadvertently proving yourself to be in the wrong.


  • #1287
    owlbethere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,329 ✭✭✭owlbethere


    iamwhoiam wrote: »
    I am so disilluded now by the whole blessed road map .The cancelling of the LC was the last straw . If they cant even sort that out how on earth is anyone suppose to get back to work .? if the schools dont get back then many workers cannot work . Its a shambles now

    Everything is a mess. A complete mess.

    There's a childcare scheme for childcare or creche workers to work privately in the homes of those essential health workers and insurance doesn't cover them.

    The only solution is to maybe copy England and open up creches for the children of healthcare workers. Its still going to be a mess because they won't open weekends and creches generally close by 6 so it might not be long enough for a healthcare workers day. It's a mess of the highest order but it's not our governments fault either. Nobody is to blame for this sh1te dumped on our backs except for the bat and rat eaters in China maybe.


  • #1288
    lobbylad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 128 ✭✭lobbylad


    growleaves wrote: »
    No this is totally different.

    Unfortunately for the pro-lockdown people, looking at countries that didn't lock down is one of the most obvious things to do.

    Commenters who predicted millions of deaths absent a lockdown will need to explain why Sweden and Belarus don't have their share in these millions - which would be corpses in the 100,000s, and that was predicted by some models.

    While Sweden didn't have a government mandated lockdown, the general public in Stockholm at least did self impose a lockdown. Restaurants, bars and pubs may be open, but they are very empty compared to normal times. As an example, staff in Ericsson in Stockholm have been working from home for about 8 weeks now, no staff permitted in the office. This is set to continue until at least July.

    So you can't hold Sweden up as an example of a country that didn't have a lockdown, they effectively had one (or close to one).


  • #1289
    growleaves
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,978 ✭✭✭growleaves


    lobbylad wrote: »
    While Sweden didn't have a government mandated lockdown, the general public in Stockholm at least did self impose a lockdown. Restaurants, bars and pubs may be open, but they are very empty compared to normal times. As an example, staff in Ericsson in Stockholm have been working from home for about 8 weeks now, no staff permitted in the office. This is set to continue until at least July.

    That's a good point and that's the sort of thing that people will be looking at. But even minor differences such as that they allowed people to go to work and go to school (as did Taiwan) and some others are very significant.

    There's also a lot of assumptions about what constitutes cautious behaviour. Perhaps Sweden's in-effect almost-lockdown (if you want to call it that) while not totally strangling the economy could be considered more cautious, more balanced at least.

    I would note that the local authorities in Stockholm closed down restaurants who were't properly social distancing. It isn't clear that Swedes are as naturally compliant as made out to be.


  • #1290
    eagle eye
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,501 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    growleaves wrote:
    Commenters who predicted millions of deaths absent a lockdown will need to explain why Sweden and Belarus don't have their share in these millions - which would be corpses in the 100,000s, and that was predicted by some models.
    If Sweden had the same population as the United States of America they would have over 100k deaths. US has 76k deaths this point.


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  • #1291
    growleaves
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,978 ✭✭✭growleaves


    Also if you are saying that is nothing to compare lockdown to, and no way of determining its effectiveness, then the lockdown should have a big question mark over it.


This discussion has been closed.
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