Is it just me or have SF vanished?

gormdubhgorm · 07-05-2020 07:40PM

Shefwedfan wrote: »

How is it an attack? Name one thing SF have done for Irish people in 30 years, it’s a fairly simple question

They decided to stop shooting army, policemen, and blowing civilians up.

--

The next stage is too move away from the glorification of such actions so that would be two things.
The third stage would be actual condemnation of any deaths caused by any branch of republicanism. And not couch it in terms of a an 'incorrect strategy'

gormdubhgorm · 07-05-2020 07:45PM

Odhinn wrote: »

Regardless of whether they are or not, they aren't sitting in opposition by choice, if you might recall. FF and FG have refused to do business with them.

And why is that I wonder? It was also clearly stated by FG/FF/Labour pre election that would not form a goverment with SF. Combined that is about twice as much as the popular vote than SF has.
Ergo FG/FF/Labour have the mandate not to form a government with SF. Or as some in SF would call it a 'mondate'.

James Brown · 07-05-2020 07:47PM

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

They decided to stop shooting army policemen and blowing civilians up.

--

The next stage is too move away from the glorification of such actions so that would be two things.
The third stage would be actual condemnation of any deaths caused by any branch of republicanism. And not couch it in terms of a an 'incorrect strategy'

Yawn.

I can't see the British Army doing that. Sure even our own FG admire the Tans.
You need to reconcile yourself with the fact that Irish people from all political walks took part in killings, beatings and the like to try further a cause. You should read up on Irish history embrace that and move on. The troubles are over, the civil war is over and Liam Cosgrave and Eoin O'Duffy are dead. Do you truly expect Charlie Flanagan to apologise for his father's antisemetism anytime we discuss FG or it's policies? MM apologise for deValera's/Haughey's actions anytime we talk FF?

Shefwedfan · 07-05-2020 07:49PM

Bowie wrote: »

You said you think MLMD is a good politician, which isn't believable quite frankly based on your posts. Suggesting MLMD might have pretended she had Covid for a PR stunt for example. And..
What do you mean by this? The opposition play a vital role in democratic politics unless you prefer an echo chamber.

I asked to name one good thing, if the best you can come up with is sitting in the opposition then that is a seriously poor return for people voting for them

Do you not think?

Odhinn · 07-05-2020 07:52PM

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

They decided to stop shooting army, policemen, and blowing civilians up.

--

The next stage is too move away from the glorification of such actions so that would be two things.
The third stage would be actual condemnation of any deaths caused by any branch of republicanism. And not couch it in terms of a an 'incorrect strategy'

...but thats not going to happen. The armed struggle carried out by the Provisonals was a justified one in their opinion (and mine, for what its worth).

Odhinn · 07-05-2020 07:53PM

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I asked to name one good thing, if the best you can come up with is sitting in the opposition then that is a seriously poor return for people voting for them

Do you not think?

I'll point out - again - that they are not in opposition by choice, rather they are there because neither FF or FG will do business with them.

Shefwedfan · 07-05-2020 07:54PM

Bowie wrote: »

Yawn.

I can't see the British Army doing that. Sure even our own FG admire the Tans.
You need to reconcile yourself with the fact that Irish people from all political walks took part in killings, beatings and the like to try further a cause. You should read up on Irish history embrace that and move on. The troubles are over, the civil war is over and Liam Cosgrave and Eoin O'Duffy are dead. Do you truly expect Charlie Flanagan to apologise for his father's antisemetism anytime we discuss FG or it's policies? MM apologise for deValera's/Haughey's actions anytime we talk FF?

What did killing people in the south of Ireland during the troubles gain may I ask?

You can talk about FF and FG etc but the IRA with the help of SF killed people in the South because they stood up against them....

Jinglejangle69 · 07-05-2020 07:55PM

Odhinn wrote: »

I'll point out - again - that they are not in opposition by choice, rather they are there because neither FF or FG will do business with them.

Nothing stopping them trying to form a government with the other left parties?

James Brown · 07-05-2020 07:56PM

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I asked to name one good thing, if the best you can come up with is sitting in the opposition then that is a seriously poor return for people voting for them

Do you not think?

Not is they continue to draw votes away from FF/FG.
Opposition parties do not make government policy but they can support or fight against it.
You are basically saying SF never governed because they've not been in government. Fair point but hardly much of a criticism.

Shefwedfan · 07-05-2020 07:57PM

Odhinn wrote: »

I'll point out - again - that they are not in opposition by choice, rather they are there because neither FF or FG will do business with them.

They “won” the election but have managed to get no other party working with them. If SF went and got Greens, Labour, PBP etc all signed up they would force FG and FF to work with them

They have signed up with no parties, Ff and FG can’t stop other parties joining SF

James Brown · 07-05-2020 08:00PM

Shefwedfan wrote: »

What did killing people in the south of Ireland during the troubles gain may I ask?

The cessation of British criminality. Equality of a sort for all people despite their religion or ethnicity. Democracy basically.

Shefwedfan wrote: »

You can talk about FF and FG etc but the IRA with the help of SF killed people in the South because they stood up against them....

As did FF/FG. Score! You got the conversation were you wanted it. This whole easy going moderate just looking for political debate from shinners is revealed to be the crock of **** it was.

Odhinn · 07-05-2020 08:00PM

Jinglejangle69 wrote: »

Nothing stopping them trying to form a government with the other left parties?

Labour have said they won't go in with them, afaik. Even if they did get Labour support, that of the greens, SD, and PBP that only gets them 60 seats.

gormdubhgorm · 07-05-2020 08:01PM

Bowie wrote: »

"Yawn.£

'Yawn' what are you teenager?

If you think the RIC were only ever the Tans you need to re-learn your history.

Also those two RIC men murdered in Solohedbeg were Irishmen who were vastly outnumbered by IRA. One of those men murdered was fluent Irish speaker.
Far more of an Irishmen than many of these up ' oh ah'up the ra' brigade who support SF.

Odhinn · 07-05-2020 08:02PM

Shefwedfan wrote: »

They “won” the election but have managed to get no other party working with them. ..........

Do please explain how FF and FG ruling them out is the result of work by SF.

James Brown · 07-05-2020 08:03PM

Shefwedfan wrote: »

They “won” the election but have managed to get no other party working with them. If SF went and got Greens, Labour, PBP etc all signed up they would force FG and FF to work with them

They have signed up with no parties, Ff and FG can’t stop other parties joining SF

So we'd have a grand coalition of everyone bar FF/FG only SF decided not to?

Odhinn · 07-05-2020 08:03PM

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

'Yawn' what are you teenager?
If you think the RIC were only ever the Tans you need to re-learn your history.

Also those two RIC men murdered in Solohedbeg were Irishmen who were vastly outnumbered by IRA. One of those men murdered was fluent Irish speaker.
Far more of an Irishmen than many of these up ' oh ah'up the ra' brigade who support SF.

Dear o dear. Do you think that the acheivment of free state staus and later the Republic shouldn't have taken place?

gormdubhgorm · 07-05-2020 08:05PM

Odhinn wrote: »

...but thats not going to happen. The armed struggle carried out by the Provisonals was a justified one in their opinion (and mine, for what its worth).

I have come a complete 180 on it. I was brainwashed when I was younger (like you I assume) that a 32 county would be the promised land.
In reality it will cost a lot both financially and practically. It will likely ignite a new 'Troubles'. Only this time the Unionists would be fighting against the Irish oppressors.
For what? Six counties where they can just paint the post boxes green?

James Brown · 07-05-2020 08:06PM

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

'Yawn' what are you teenager?
If you think the RIC were only ever the Tans you need to re-learn your history.

Also those two RIC men murdered in Solohedbeg were Irishmen who were vastly outnumbered by IRA. One of those men murdered was fluent Irish speaker.
Far more of an Irishmen than many of these up ' oh ah'up the ra' brigade who support SF.

The yawn was to show how boring I find your repetition of the same circular 'arguments' rather than discussing topics at hand. Every discussion involving SF is your time to ****e on about the IRA. It's pointless and boring to me.
I don't care about the RIC/Tans in this context. Read your post ffs, this isn't 'Drunk History'.

Shefwedfan · 07-05-2020 08:09PM

Bowie wrote: »

The cessation of British criminality. Equality of a sort for all people despite their religion or ethnicity. Democracy basically.

As did FF/FG. Score! You got the conversation were you wanted it. This whole easy going moderate just looking for political debate from shinners is revealed to be the crock of **** it was.

Excuse me but I mentioned the south of Ireland in question. You mentioned the IRA not me.

Killing people in the South was nothing to do with British army

gormdubhgorm · 07-05-2020 08:09PM

Deleted User wrote: »

You really dont,the tans were sworn in as police constables?

You can thank the british PM lylod george for this particular fact

Pretty sure at least 1 of those,who launvhes the attack,went onto be a nazi sympatihising FF TD,until mid 60s....kind of a misnomer to blame shinners for this.

Eamon Ceant's father was a Constable in the RIC for instance.
People need to move away from the brainwashing republican lines. Also I don't listen to liveline.
Even the fella Kevin Barry who was 18 summers etc. The fella he shot Private Harold Washington was about 15.
This is the type of hypocrisy with republicanism, and rebel songs etc.

Shefwedfan · 07-05-2020 08:09PM

Bowie wrote: »

The yawn was to show how boring I find your repetition of the same circular 'arguments' rather than discussing topics at hand. Every discussion involving SF is your time to ****e on about the IRA. It's pointless and boring to me.
I don't care about the RIC/Tans in this context. Read your post ffs, this isn't 'Drunk History'.

You brought the IRA into it, not anyone else, so throwing your toys out of pram now is too late

James Brown · 07-05-2020 08:12PM

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Excuse me but I mentioned the south of Ireland in question. You mentioned the IRA not me.

Killing people in the South was nothing to do with British army

Gormdubh brought up the IRA. I responded, you responded to that with more IRA.

It was likely related to their cause as much as the killings the others carried out in the south. These things happened.
You still on your parties that aren't in government don't govern kick or have you moved on completely?

Shefwedfan wrote: »

You brought the IRA into it, not anyone else, so throwing your toys out of pram now is too late

Incorrect. See above. I'm literally complaining to him about bringing up the IRA all the time.

So that's a yes I take it :rolleyes:

Finty Lemon · 07-05-2020 08:12PM

Odhinn wrote: »

...but thats not going to happen. The armed struggle carried out by the Provisonals was a justified one in their opinion (and mine, for what its worth).

Morally justified or not, it failed utterly and was a strategic disaster so cannot be justified in a political sense. SF spent 30 years backing a military campaign and end up supping tea with her Majesty! For what? Seats in a glorified county council. Talk about a climbdown.

The only people who benefitted from it all were the armed groups on both sides who have used the situation to build criminal empires. I suppose a lot of SF members would be ok with that. Meanwhile the Irish people voted by 90% plus to drop their claim on NI. 2-0 to HMG

The only thing SF care about is a united Ireland. They would go to any point on the political spectrum to deliver this. If it does happen, it will be demographics that does it not SF policies. They, through their own poor judgment and short sighted policies, have delayed the very thing they seek the most. Unfit.

Odhinn · 07-05-2020 08:13PM

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I have come a complete 180 on it. I was brainwashed when I was younger (like you I assume) that a 32 county would be the promised land.
In reality it will cost a lot both financially and practically. It will likely ignite a new 'Troubles'. Only this time the Unionists would be fighting against the Irish oppressors.
For what? Six counties where they can just paint the post boxes green?

The fuel behind the armed struggle in the North wasn't a desire for unity with the south, but the desire for unity to alleviate the sectarian state with all its attendant evils.

gormdubhgorm · 07-05-2020 08:13PM

Bowie wrote: »

The yawn was to show how boring I find your repetition of the same circular 'arguments' rather than discussing topics at hand. Every discussion involving SF is your time to ****e on about the IRA. It's pointless and boring to me.
I don't care about the RIC/Tans in this context. Read your post ffs, this isn't 'Drunk History'.

So why did David Cullinane go on about the IRA then? Did you yawn then or cheer?
When SF cheered when a new TD was elected and the tricolour was waved and the 'up the RA' a nation once again was sung. Did you yawn or cheer?

You and those types exactly the type of republican hypocrites, who I am on about.

Edgware · 07-05-2020 08:13PM

Odhinn wrote: »

...but thats not going to happen. The armed struggle carried out by the Provisonals was a justified one in their opinion (and mine, for what its worth).

Which is very little from behind your couch

gormdubhgorm · 07-05-2020 08:15PM

Odhinn wrote: »

The fuel behind the armed struggle in the North wasn't a desire for unity with the south, but the desire for unity to alleviate the sectarian state with all its attendant evils.

Yeah and... that is gone now. So why is there a real need for unification? It is only purely ideologically based.

Odhinn · 07-05-2020 08:15PM

Finty Lemon wrote: »

Morally justified or not, it failed utterly and was a strategic disaster so cannot be justified in a political sense. SF spent 30 years backing a military campaign and end up supping tead with her Majesty! For what? Seats in a glorified county council. Talk about a climbdown.

..........

...an agreement with international support and reform of the sectarian statelet are hardly a "climb down" or failure.

Odhinn · 07-05-2020 08:18PM

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Eamon Ceant's father was a Constable in the RIC for instance.
People need to move away from the brainwashing republican lines. Also I don't listen to liveline.
Even the fella Kevin Barry who was 18 summers etc. The fella he shot Private Harold Washington was about 15.
This is the type of hypocrisy with republicanism, and rebel songs etc.

..you can't see the fact that crown forces were the aggressor in suppressing nationalism and its desire for a free and independent state?

gormdubhgorm · 07-05-2020 08:20PM

Finty Lemon wrote: »

Morally justified or not, it failed utterly and was a strategic disaster so cannot be justified in a political sense. SF spent 30 years backing a military campaign and end up supping tead with her Majesty! For what? Seats in a glorified county council. Talk about a climbdown.

The only people who benefitted from it all were the armed groups on both sides who have used the situation to build criminal empires. I suppose a lot of SF members would be ok with that. Meanwhile the Irish people voted by 90% plus to drop their claim on NI. 2-0 to HMG

The only thing SF care about is a united Ireland. They would go to any point on the political spectrum to deliver this. If it does happen, it will be demographics that does it not SF policies. They, through their own poor judgment and short sighted policies, have delayed the very thing they seek the most. Unfit.

Yep, and don't forget the other pillar of SF was the real revival of the Irish language. Yet only about 70k speak Irish everyday in Ireland. Not only that some in SF have no Irish Michelle O'Neill or a very basic grasp of Irish like Mary Lou.

If the first pillar could not be achieved in well over 100 years since the Gaelic League, how in the name of Jayus are SF going to achieve a UI. A nice peaceful UI?

It is pie in the sky stuff.

Is it just me or have SF vanished?

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