Relaxation of restrictions Part II

FintanMcluskey · 07-05-2020 04:16PM

CruelSummer wrote: »

Children are being locked up and kept away from developing socially, emotionally and academically and looked at like pariahs when out. It's so wrong to do this to vulnerable children learning about the world...I heard one parent saying 'Keep away from PEOPLE, they're dangerous'.

This is the most alarming part of Ireland’s approach. We have sacrificed the children's free movement and development indefinately. Every children in Ireland would be better off in St. Pats for the last few and next few months, which is a substantial amount of time in a child's life.
Now you will see lots of bulls##t posted here about how hard those most at risk( ie over 80)had it growing up, but did they ever give up their freedom at any point?

LiquidZeb · 07-05-2020 04:19PM

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Basically Germany recognises that this whole self isolate for 14 days after your arrival is not a way forward for travel. So within EU, a handful of countries like Austria, Germany, Czech Republic Norway etc are coming together and are basically saying hey, you send us your citizens for a visit, regardless of how long the visit is we can allow them in and let them do their thing. No 14 day isolation required.

Unfortunately it seems that Ireland has not been approached for this.

We are slowly cocooning ourselves as a country without even knowing this

Considering how popular Ireland is with German tourists it's only a matter of time before we are approached. I've flown to and from Germany on three occasions to Dusseldorf, Hamburg and Munich and every flight the majority of passengers were German. And that was with aer lingus mind.

FintanMcluskey · 07-05-2020 04:19PM

gozunda wrote: »

Simple answer is no. Agsinjust to reiterate - the restrictions are not only about deaths. Ths restrictions are in place to help reduce the numbers of infected and to stop our health services being overwhelmed.

Which bit do you not understand?
.

Its easy to prevent a health service becoming overwhelmed when you only focus on Covid and forbid treatment of other illnesses.

Ginger n Lemon · 07-05-2020 04:23PM

Big news - not from newstalk.

Remember yellow vests? Now this piece of news you wont see in BBCs or RTEs or Irish times, my source is actually a French individual

France's prime minister has announced essentially extension of good few lockdown measures including closed national border until 15th of June.

So, yeah, yellow vests just got a huge support group for their cause. Huge protests in France are being talked up.

And you know, French love to strike. Watch this space.

road_high · 07-05-2020 04:25PM

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Big news - not from newstalk.

Remember yellow vests? Now this piece of news you wont see in BBCs or RTEs or Irish times, my source is actually a French individual

France's prime minister has announced essentially extension of good few lockdown measures including closed national border until 15th of June.

So, yeah, yellow vests just got a huge support group for their cause. Huge protests in France are being talked up.

And you know, French love to strike. Watch this space.

I'd assumed France was opening up more like the rest of the Continent?

johnboy1298 · 07-05-2020 04:27PM

Based on worldometer figures, 330 people under the age of 44 have died from coronavirus in the UK. Assuming half of the total number of people infected are under 45 this makes your chance of dying from this approx 1 in 2500. If you have no underlying issue its even lower I'd imagine. If you factor in undiagnosed cases lower that again. For anyone under this age not living with an older relative this is what the government has taken away your business/job/education/social life for.

Ginger n Lemon · 07-05-2020 04:28PM

road_high wrote: »

I'd assumed France was opening up more like the rest of the Continent?

I assumed so as well but that isnt the case. France and Ireland are leading the way in exceptionally slow lifting of lockdown measures. (only 2 countries actually)

But France will get a little boost now with 10 000 + people marching the streets of Paris demanding this madness ends.

Macron has a big agenda he is trying to push through the parliament there, and when streets are empty it is usually done much quicker.

stephenjmcd · 07-05-2020 04:28PM

road_high wrote: »

I'd assumed France was opening up more like the rest of the Continent?

They are, certain areas will open slower though based on infection rates.

https://twitter.com/BBCWorld/status/1258417777481744387?s=19

easypazz · 07-05-2020 04:31PM

johnboy1298 wrote: »

Based on worldometer figures, 330 people under the age of 44 have died from coronavirus in the UK. Assuming half of the total number of people infected are under 45 this makes your chance of dying from this approx 1 in 2500. If you have no underlying issue its even lower I'd imagine. If you factor in undiagnosed cases lower that again. For anyone under this age not living with an older relative this is what the government has taken away your business/job/education/social life for.

Probably about 1 in 10000 infected healthy people under 45 will die from it. Try tell that to the gloomers on here though.

stephenjmcd · 07-05-2020 04:33PM

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

I assumed so as well but that isnt the case. France and Ireland are leading the way in exceptionally slow lifting of lockdown measures. (only 2 countries actually)

But France will get a little boost now with 10 000 + people marching the streets of Paris demanding this madness ends.

Macron has a big agenda he is trying to push through the parliament there, and when streets are empty it is usually done much quicker.

Sorry but that's not fully true.

France is opening up based on infection rates. The paris region still has high levels so they can't open up yet. It's being widely reported.

road_high · 07-05-2020 04:34PM

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

I assumed so as well but that isnt the case. France and Ireland are leading the way in exceptionally slow lifting of lockdown measures. (only 2 countries actually)

But France will get a little boost now with 10 000 + people marching the streets of Paris demanding this madness ends.

Macron has a big agenda he is trying to push through the parliament there, and when streets are empty it is usually done much quicker.

France was always big on the Nanny State/Big Government stuff (anyone that's done busiess there will know how they like bureacracy with no leeway) so i guess not surprising they are stuck in the same rut as us.

Balf · 07-05-2020 04:37PM

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Its easy to prevent a health service becoming overwhelmed when you only focus on Covid and forbid treatment of other illnesses.

Should we state it as a positive goal?

We want our health services to be underwhelmed.

Ginger n Lemon · 07-05-2020 04:37PM

Newstalk

Chemotherapy is not business as usual. Patients have had their chemotherapy delayed, some had their chemotherapy administration altered.

Government will have a lot of compensation payouts to give out in 9 - 12 months from now. If this was any crazier, you'd think Leo & co wants to bankrupt our nation.

Also, people who had cancer treatment have had their routine check up cancelled. People are walking around 6/12 months after their treatment worried that their cancer may be back.

What the f*** are we doing

stephenjmcd · 07-05-2020 04:40PM

Harris in the Dáil stating modeling shows R value between 0.3-0.8 with consensus that its stable at 0.5

Ginger n Lemon · 07-05-2020 04:41PM

stephenjmcd wrote: »

Sorry but that's not fully true.

France is opening up based on infection rates. The paris region still has high levels so they can't open up yet. It's being widely reported.

Oh I never said they arent lifting restrictions.

Its the speed at which they are lifting them - a lot of population is unhappy with this turtle speed, but you know unlike us here - they love to take to the streets and voice their concerns.

So this French friend of mine is saying that you will see reports of large protests (a bit like what happened in Germany), very large crowds as, as you may know we here have over 1 million people on the dole, they must have what like 10? 15 million?

easypazz · 07-05-2020 04:44PM

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Newstalk

Chemotherapy is not business as usual. Patients have had their chemotherapy delayed, some had their chemotherapy administration altered.

Government will have a lot of compensation payouts to give out in 9 - 12 months from now. If this was any crazier, you'd think Leo & co wants to bankrupt our nation.

Also, people who had cancer treatment have had their routine check up cancelled. People are walking around 6/12 months after their treatment worried that their cancer may be back.

What the f*** are we doing

A lot more under 45's will die from procedures not taking place than will die from COVID-19.

It is an absolute farce.

tobefrank321 · 07-05-2020 04:47PM

easypazz wrote: »

Probably about 1 in 10000 infected healthy people under 45 will die from it. Try tell that to the gloomers on here though.

And on that, approximately 180 men are diagnosed with testicular cancer in Ireland every year. Prompt diagnoses and treatment is critical for them.

So potentially in the last 2 months, something like 30 mostly young men will not have been diagnosed or treated, putting their lives at risk. I'd imagine its something similar for cervical cancer in young women. We cannot simply brush this under the carpet or hope it will go away just because covid 19 is front page news. It has to be dealt with.

There has to be some kind of balance where the country does not shut down because of coronavirus cases. We have to learn to live with it.

Lockdown hysteria is more dangerous to young men and women from a health perspective than covid 19.

We need to start prioritising the welfare of the young in this country while also attempting as best we can with a targeted approach to shield vulnerable categories from covid 19.

But a nationwide long running generalised lockdown is not the answer and will likely cause more deaths in the young than covid 19.

easypazz · 07-05-2020 04:49PM

Talking to a few small business owners today and the consensus seems to be to take the €350 covid payment as long as possible and when that dries up go back on the regular dole and leave the doors closed.

All the while work away on the black economy.

Businesses don't make near as much money as the career civil servants think, and now its about to be slapped into their faces.

ronano · 07-05-2020 04:56PM

I'd be reasonably pro the 14 day isolation for now but how do you enforce it. If travel gets back to even 25 percent of where it was prior to covid lockdown in next few months, the gardai wouldn't have the man power to enforce it.

Benimar · 07-05-2020 05:00PM

ronano wrote: »

I'd be reasonably pro the 14 day isolation for now but how do you enforce it. If travel gets back to even 25 percent of where it was prior to covid lockdown in next few months, the gardai wouldn't have the man power to enforce it.

The gardai can’t (or won’t?) even tell groups of teenagers to go home, I wouldn’t be trusting them to enforce this!

If numbers are good and City West isn’t being used then anyone travelling should have to quarantine there on return. Other countries are enforcing it, so should we. If we don’t then we have just wasted 8 weeks trying to bring this virus under control.

gozunda · 07-05-2020 05:08PM

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Its easy to prevent a health service becoming overwhelmed when you only focus on Covid and forbid treatment of other illnesses.

That simplified take of the true state of affairs with regard to the treatment of other illnesses has been dragged up many times as a stick to support the fuk the restrictions brigade. Perhaps not surprisingly it is also been used by the usual suspects for a bit of political **** stirring. No change there tbh.

The actual issues turn out to be much more complex and and challenging for both patients and medical professionals.

This from a previous post

This is an known problem and its not being ignored. Yes there has been a drop in such treatments across the boards. This was originally done to maximise resources in hospitals to deal with the outbreak, to keep those who are medically vulnerable out of areas of high risk of infection and the secondary fact that people are choosing to stay away from GP surgeries and hospital settings themselves. From various reports it would seem some treatment services are starting up again. But lets all ignore all that and just keep up the bitching and moaning.

A senior HSE official said that people are avoiding urgent tests, such as colonoscopies, because they fear contracting coronavirus in a hospital.

Recent HSE figures show that cancer cases referred to them through the Healthlink e-referral system have dropped by more than 50%. And the HSE’s lead advisor for integrated care, Siobhán Ní Bhriain, said: ‘We have a lot of anecdotal evidence of people being called for certain testing, for example for colonoscopy, and not coming for it because they might be anxious about contracting Covid.

‘If you’re contacted for an urgent test, please do attend, it means the service is available and is able to look after you… in a safe way.’

There has also been a ‘very significant drop’ in the number of patients attending their family doctors, according to the National Covid Lead for Primary Care, John O’Brien. ‘General practice is open for business,’ he said.

We actually want to see you… The GPs will deal with them [patients] safely and deal with their problems because the risk is that everybody will have avoided Covid, but there are other conditions and they haven’t gone away — diabetes, heart disease, cancer, urological conditions — they’re all still out there.

‘We really need you to make contact with us and come in to have those addressed.’ Mr Reid also said the mental health effects of the pandemic must be addressed, such as depression, trauma associated with bereavement, OCD, anxiety disorders and addictions.

The Irish Cancer Society’s CEO, Averil Power, said: ‘Ordinarily, an average of 800 people are diagnosed with cancer each week in Ireland, usually after presenting to their GP with cancer symptoms.

When it comes to cancer, early detection is key and can be the difference between life or death in some cases.

‘That’s why it’s so important people contact their GP immediately if they notice potential cancer symptoms like a lump, bleeding, weight loss or fatigue.

‘Despite COVID-19 we have been assured that GPs are there for anyone who needs them and urgent cancer services are continuing to operate.’ At the end of March, the Government announced that public healthcare capacity will increase by 17% through an agreement with the Private Hospital Association.

https://extra.ie/2020/05/04/news/irish-news/hse-non-coronavirus-health-timebomb[/quote]

But hey keep going....

tobefrank321 · 07-05-2020 05:13PM

gozunda wrote: »

That simplified take of the true state of affairs with regard to the treatment of other illnesses has been dragged up many times as a stick to support the fuk the restrictions brigade. Perhaps not surprisingly it is also been used by the usual suspects for a bit of political **** stirring. No change there tbh.

The actual issues turn out to be much more complex and and challenging for both patients and medical professionals.

This from a previous post

This is an known problem and its not being ignored. Yes there has been a drop in such treatments across the boards. This was originally done to maximise resources in hospitals to deal with the outbreak, to keep those who are medically vulnerable out of areas of high risk of infection and the secondary fact that people are choosing to stay away from GP surgeries and hospital settings themselves. From various reports it would seem some treatment services are starting up again. But lets all ignore all that and just keep up the bitching and moaning.

https://extra.ie/2020/05/04/news/irish-news/hse-non-coronavirus-health-timebomb

If you look at the evening briefings, covid 19 is treated as if its fatal in almost all situations, dangerous, lethal etc etc. Off the scale scaremongering.

Why are you surprised people are afraid of turning up for appointments?

Holohan said yesterday evening he's worried about young people getting infected. No caveats, nothing. Said nothing about the risks of healthy young people getting anything other than a mild dose was minimal.

When your government and health services continue to convey this as a serious illness for everyone, it is not one bit surprising that people would avoid hospitals.

Regards the breakdown of ICU patients, is there any evidence that those undergoing cancer treatment ended up in ICU? It would be great if they clarified this. Don't expect any of the journalists to ask it.

The government and Holohan need to state clearly and unambiguously that covid 19 is not a serious illness for the overwhelming number of people. So far they haven't said that. And while that nonsense continues, don't be surprised to see even young people avoid hospital for potentially life saving cancer treatments.

uli84 · 07-05-2020 05:21PM

easypazz wrote: »

A lot more under 45's will die from procedures not taking place than will die from COVID-19.

It is an absolute farce.

Just got reply from cervical screening -

“Your next test is due 23/5/2020. I note your address below and have amended the Register to reflect this. However see below COVID-19 restrictions:

Coronavirus (COVID-19)

Cervical screening is paused in line with the HSE's measures to stop the spread of COVID-19.(...)”

At least no bull*** like response to the other screening query i am due saying that they’ll restart as soon as it’s safe to do so

FintanMcluskey · 07-05-2020 05:29PM

gozunda wrote: »

From various reports it would seem some treatment services are starting up again. But lets all ignore all that and just keep up the bitching and moaning.

So the fact 2000 beds are empty and treatment cancelled for 6 months can be justified by this.
This is not political bashing this is what happening

gozunda · 07-05-2020 05:33PM

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Seriously. If you look at the evening briefings, covid 19 is treated as if its fatal in almost all situations, dangerous, lethal etc etc.

Why are you surprised people are afraid of turning up for appointments?

Holohan said yesterday evening he's worried about young people getting infected. No caveats, nothing. Said nothing about the risks of healthy young people getting anything other than a mild dose was minimal.

When your government and health services continue to convey this as a serious illness for everyone, it is not one bit surprising that people would avoid hospitals.

Regards the breakdown of ICU patients, is there any evidence that those undergoing cancer treatment ended up in ICU? It would be great if they clarified this.

The government and Holohan need to state clearly and unambiguously that covid 19 is not a serious illness for the overwhelming number of people. So far they haven't said that.

Nah. I reckon thats just your hyperbolic take on it. Bizarely you seem to view practically everything in black and white.

Where did I say I was surprised "people are afraid of turning up for appointments" btw?

But yes Covid-19 is potentially a serious risk to those with a whole range of illnesses including LTI. So yes indeed people have a right to be worried. And that had to be pointed out as the previous comment completely ignored it.

Yes indeed Holohan said yesterday evening he's worried about young people getting infected. And why was that?

Because of the increasing number of young people who are getting infected. And if they get infected - they can spread it to their family. They may not get a bad dose (though there is no guarantees tbh) but they most certainly can infect their friends especially if restrictions are not observed and potentially the nurse or staff member who works in that nursing home down the roador similar. And lets not forget that a significant proportion of younger people also have LTI such as Asthma etc.

So no responsible goverment or health agency is going to say to all young people "It doesnt matter if you get it - sure you will be grand". Because there are no guarentees and it is just as important that those who do get infected do not spread the disease to other vulnerable people.

Goldengirl · 07-05-2020 05:33PM

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Newstalk

Chemotherapy is not business as usual. Patients have had their chemotherapy delayed, some had their chemotherapy administration altered.

Government will have a lot of compensation payouts to give out in 9 - 12 months from now. If this was any crazier, you'd think Leo & co wants to bankrupt our nation.

Also, people who had cancer treatment have had their routine check up cancelled. People are walking around 6/12 months after their treatment worried that their cancer may be back.

What the f*** are we doing

This is not my experience , but appreciate it might have been yours.
I know 2 people who have still been attending for chemo throughout as their consultants felt they needed to continue.
The worry would be bringing very immunocompromised people into hospital and trying to balance that with their need for treatment.
Also if people are concerned about their cancer returning and their routine checking being cancelled during this crisis, it is because routine outpatients are not going forward until later in the year.
Any patient who's concerned about anything can ring their doctor who will email their consultant and they will be contacted fairly quickly. The hospitals are concerned at patients cancelling or not calling in with problems, not as you say.
I have had two people in my family diagnosed and treated straight away in the last6 weeks , with top notch care from all concerned ,from GP todoctors , nurses , secretaries , all public .

FintanMcluskey · 07-05-2020 05:37PM

gozunda wrote: »

Nah. I reckon thats just your hyperbolic take on it. Bizarely you seem to view practically everything in black and white.

But yes Covid-19 is potentially a serious risk to those with a whole range of illnesses including LTI. So yes indeed people have a right to be worried. And that had to be pointed out as the previous comment completely ignored it.

Yes indeed Holohan said yesterday evening he's worried about young people getting infected. And why was that?

Because of the increasing number of young people who are getting infected. And if they get infected - they can spread it to their family. They may not get a bad dose (though there is no guarantees tbh) but they most certainly can infect their friends especially if restrictions are not observed and potentially the nurse or staff member who works in that nursing home down the roador similar.

Its black and white in Sweden.

Goldengirl · 07-05-2020 05:38PM

easypazz wrote: »

A lot more under 45's will die from procedures not taking place than will die from COVID-19.

It is an absolute farce.

With all due respect, without cancer or serious illness which are being treated , what would be killing under 45s except Covid 19?

gozunda · 07-05-2020 05:39PM

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

So the fact 2000 beds are empty and treatment cancelled for 6 months can be justified by this.
This is not political bashing this is what happening

If you bother to read the link above you will see not all treatment by any means "cancelled for 6 months". But hey keep up with the pot stirring. I reckon your comments qualify for a wooden spoon award at this stage imho.

FintanMcluskey · 07-05-2020 05:40PM

Goldengirl wrote: »

With all due respect, without cancer or serious illness which are being treated , what would be killing under 45s except Covid 19?

Obesity, alcoholism and suicide. By many multiples of Covid.

Relaxation of restrictions Part II

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