Masks

Waccamacca3 · 05-05-2020 03:38PM

Yes: surgical

stephenjmcd wrote: »

Bus Eireann aren't, its within an NBRU proposal along with lots of other things. If you read the transport forum you'll get a fair idea as to what most drivers even in the NBRU think of O'Leary in the last few weeks.

Oh right apologies

stephenjmcd · 05-05-2020 03:39PM

Waccamacca3 wrote: »

Oh right apologies

The main thing behind the whole proposal is the same as what they wanted a few weeks ago. They want services restored to normal levels in order to have all drivers back working. Longer it goes on more holidays DB staff have to use up.

Wibbs · 05-05-2020 03:48PM

Yes: other

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Had to visit a hospital this morning, I'm even more against masks now, here's my experience in a health care setting.

Stopped at door told we had to wear masks, myself and my 6yr old. The guy at reception picked up the masks by the mask part of the masks not the strings with his gloves I did not see him clean or put on new gloves this was done for multiple visitors while we were queing to get our tempature checked before proceeding.

I put it on my 6yr old, it slipped down a few minutes later and he readjusted it himself by the front before I could stop him.

There was 0 guidance on proper usage, the same when disposing of them 0 guidence just told to throw them in the bin.

As I see it if they can't get it right in a hospital, not only should they be not recommended they should be banned.

So you've gone from an admitted position (though god alone knows why) of being against masks and now you'd want them actually banned because of one idiot? How utterly ridiculous is that? Would you want handwashing "banned" because you observed one idiot not doing it correctly, or at all? Would you want social distancing "banned" because you observed one person or a group not doing it correctly? I simply cannot fathom logic that skewed, though it seems emotion is way more in play than logic or common sense on this issue in particular.

Boggles · 05-05-2020 03:51PM

I saw a guy driving today not wearing a seat belt.

We should ban seat belts.

Hrududu · 05-05-2020 03:53PM

Wibbs wrote: »

So you've gone from an admitted position (though god alone knows why) of being against masks and now you'd want them actually banned because of one idiot? How utterly ridiculous is that? Would you want handwashing "banned" because you observed one idiot not doing it correctly, or at all? Would you want social distancing "banned" because you observed one person or a group not doing it correctly? I simply cannot fathom logic that skewed, though it seems emotion is way more in play than logic or common sense on this issue in particular.

I was in the bathroom before we left the office one day and the person in the other stall didn't wash their hands. Not only am I now against handwashing, but I think it should be banned.

owlbethere · 05-05-2020 03:58PM

2u2me wrote: »

Stumbled accross this website Masks4all (Don't think it was already posted by apologies if so).

Founded by some czech scientists but now have representation all over the world.

Seems a great resource for anything mask related.
The science of

The full explanation

Examples by country

Sources

FAQ

How to make

etc..

To be honest, I think this image says it all.

That's a good video and simulation of cough/virus particles being released.

I don't understand why masks are not recommended. It will go a long way to helping at slowing down this virus. I understand that surgical masks are needed for healthcare settings. How about cloth/fabric/reusable facemasks for the public?

drunkmonkey · 05-05-2020 04:00PM

No: other

Wibbs wrote: »

So you've gone from an admitted position (though god alone knows why) of being against masks and now you'd want them actually banned because of one idiot? How utterly ridiculous is that? Would you want handwashing "banned" because you observed one idiot not doing it correctly, or at all? Would you want social distancing "banned" because you observed one person or a group not doing it correctly? I simply cannot fathom logic that skewed, though it seems emotion is way more in play than logic or common sense on this issue in particular.

You'd think in a hospital there would have been guidence on proper usage. This idiot is a health care worker. Plenty of health care workers beside him. There was I presume a doctor there not wearing any mask. We went to our doctor and he had a mask on but not over his nose.
It's not going to work in a safe manner when the professionals aren't using them correctly, or don't feel the need to. I'm gonna use that woke word as that's what it's starting to seem like with mask wearing, it seem to be the media pushing government on it rather than health care professionals. Get woke wear a mask.

drunkmonkey · 05-05-2020 04:02PM

No: other

2u2me wrote: »

Stumbled accross this website Masks4all (Don't think it was already posted by apologies if so).

Founded by some czech scientists but now have representation all over the world.

Seems a great resource for anything mask related.
The science of

The full explanation

Examples by country

Sources

FAQ

How to make

etc..

To be honest, I think this image says it all.

It says keep your distance and be very careful desposing of masks as there's a huge viral load on them.

owlbethere · 05-05-2020 04:08PM

I bought some fabric masks from 2 Irish makers on etsy. The masks have pockets for a filter. I researched fabrics and bought different type of fabric that looks promising for using as a filter. I'm looking ahead really because we can't stay in lockdown forever and also for the rare occasion I might need to take a bus or say for example I need to go to my gp or for the winter time later on down the line or if the family get sick. For the cinema too. Bond will be coming out in November. That will definitely be one thing that will get me out into the public.

I hope to wash them before use. Get them dry and store each of them in a zip lock bag for taking out and about. Then wash after use and repeat.

Wibbs · 05-05-2020 04:10PM

Yes: other

drunkmonkey wrote: »

You'd think in a hospital there would have been guidence on proper usage. This idiot is a health care worker. Plenty of health care workers beside him. There was I presume a doctor there not wearing any mask. We went to our doctor and he had a mask on but not over his nose.
It's not going to work in a safe manner when the professionals aren't using them correctly, or don't feel the need to. I'm gonna use that woke word as that's what it's starting to seem like with mask wearing, it seem to be the media pushing government on it rather than health care professionals. Get woke wear a mask.

Woke? What utter daftness are you spouting now? Your logic is all over the bloody place. On the one hand health care professionals can't even wear them properly, on the other you believe the same health care professionals are correct on masks and it's the media pushing it? Wut?

It certainly sounds like a completely over the top emotional and illogical response on this. You've decided a position and by god nothing will sway you from it and the more you perceive sway to be in play the further you dig your heels in on your original position.

Actually at this stage fcuk it. I give up and instead of the surgical masks I've been wearing in shops and the like to potentially protect others, I'll be wearing my valved N98 in the future to try to protect myself from others.

Boggles · 05-05-2020 04:10PM

drunkmonkey wrote: »

You'd think in a hospital there would have been guidence on proper usage. This idiot is a health care worker. Plenty of health care workers beside him. There was I presume a doctor there not wearing any mask. We went to our doctor and he had a mask on but not over his nose.
It's not going to work in a safe manner when the professionals aren't using them correctly, or don't feel the need to. I'm gonna use that woke word as that's what it's starting to seem like with mask wearing, it seem to be the media pushing government on it rather than health care professionals. Get woke wear a mask.

1. Invent a story.

2. Blame the media.

3. Fit the word "woke" in somewhere.

The hat trick, fair play to you.

Wibbs · 05-05-2020 04:13PM

Yes: other

drunkmonkey wrote: »

It says keep your distance and be very careful desposing of masks as there's a huge viral load on them.

Where does it say that on that site? I certainly can't find it. What they do say is this:

There are no reported cases that I’ve found that show transmission through an infected mask. Since there are now hundreds of millions of people around the world required to wear masks in public, we would expect to have seen examples of this by now.

The idea that wearing masks could increase risk due to touching it doesn’t stand up to scrutiny. If your mask has virus particles in it, there’s two possibilities for how they got there:

You’re already infected, in which case this isn’t really an issue, or
You’re not already infected, and the virus particles came from someone else, which means that your mask stopped them from going into your mouth.

COVID-19 is transmitted through the inside of the mouth, nose, or the eyes. If a mask stops virus particles from entering your mouth, then it’s done its job. People should be told to wash their mask when they get home, to minimize the chance that they get infected through an infected surface.

drunkmonkey · 05-05-2020 04:33PM

No: other

I don't see any evidence that the risks out weigh the benefits if your healthy. If your healthy and get the virus on your mask and handle it or don't wear it correctly your putting yourself at greater risk as the viral load is concentrated on it.
With the worke thing it just feels like it's something being forced in us, the Karen's are just waiting to let rip at people not wearing them.
If you feel safer in one fine, wear it. Don't force it like France where there using CCTV and drones to enforce compliance.

drunkmonkey · 05-05-2020 04:41PM

No: other

N95 particulate respirators - Yes
Masks 3 for €5 on the counter at centra - No

AlekSmart · 05-05-2020 04:53PM

No: other

Wibbs wrote: »

Woke? What utter daftness are you spouting now? Your logic is all over the bloody place. On the one hand health care professionals can't even wear them properly, on the other you believe the same health care professionals are correct on masks and it's the media pushing it? Wut?

It certainly sounds like a completely over the top emotional and illogical response on this. You've decided a position and by god nothing will sway you from it and the more you perceive sway to be in play the further you dig your heels in on your original position.

Actually at this stage fcuk it. I give up and instead of the surgical masks I've been wearing in shops and the like to potentially protect others, I'll be wearing my valved N98 in the future to try to protect myself from others.

That sounds like the most sensible option.

I'm happy to wait for the HSE's realistic guidelines to change.

Whilst you are obviously clued-in about mask-wearing in general,the vast majority would have difficulty seperating their N98 from their P45.

The HSE's current guidelines appear well founded on commonsense and do err on the side of freedom to choose ...

https://www2.hse.ie/conditions/coronavirus/face-masks-disposable-gloves.html

Wearing a mask is unlikely to be of any benefit if you are not sick.

I'm happy enough with that.

https://www2.hse.ie/conditions/coronavirus/protect-yourself-and-others.html

There is very little risk if you are just passing someone. But try to keep a distance of 2 metres as much as possible.

This aspect now needs to be added to the Rules of the Road,as the potential of being killed by a Vehicle after you lep off the footpath out onto the middle of the road to avoid another pedestrian FAR exceeds the risk of CV19 killing you....with or without a mask !

Informative article here from a former Consultant Pathologist...

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/face-masks-should-there-be-a-cover-up-

To think about this in relation to face masks, you first need to have a handle on just how small viruses are. A human hair is about a tenth of a millimetre thick. A typical bacterium (such as the human pathogens E. coli or S. aureus) comes in at about one thousandth of a millimetre, so you could line a hundred up across the width of a hair. A coronavirus particle is about 10 times smaller still, so a thousand would fit across a hair. This extreme smallness was instrumental in the discovery of viruses in the nineteenth century: they were the infective agents, left in solutions that had been passed through ‘ultrafilters’ which had removed all other known pathogens.

So,to my thinking,unless EVERYBODY is kitted out in Hazmat style masks,or even full hoods,then the current trend remains largely based on a feelgood factor (nothing wrong with that of itself)

If wearing a mask makes you feel better,then wear away....just don't be giving me daggers looks because you can see my sweet smile

Away With The Fairies · 05-05-2020 04:56PM

Yes: valved

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Had to visit a hospital this morning, I'm even more against masks now, here's my experience in a health care setting.

Stopped at door told we had to wear masks, myself and my 6yr old. The guy at reception picked up the masks by the mask part of the masks not the strings with his gloves I did not see him clean or put on new gloves this was done for multiple visitors while we were queing to get our tempature checked before proceeding.

I put it on my 6yr old, it slipped down a few minutes later and he readjusted it himself by the front before I could stop him.

There was 0 guidance on proper usage, the same when disposing of them 0 guidence just told to throw them in the bin.

As I see it if they can't get it right in a hospital, not only should they be not recommended they should be banned.

There's someone handing us face masks when entering my place of work. I don't like someone else handling my mask, I don't know where their hands have been. Even with gloves on, I don't know where their hands have been. There are alot of people with dirty habits and you can see it now.. They should come individually wrapped instead of in a box.

Away With The Fairies · 05-05-2020 05:04PM

Yes: valved

AlekSmart wrote: »

That sounds like the most sensible option.

I'm happy to wait for the HSE's realistic guidelines to change.

Whilst you are obviously clued-in about mask-wearing in general,the vast majority would have difficulty seperating their N98 from their P45.

The HSE's current guidelines appear well founded on commonsense and do err on the side of freedom to choose ...

https://www2.hse.ie/conditions/coronavirus/face-masks-disposable-gloves.html

I'm happy enough with that.

https://www2.hse.ie/conditions/coronavirus/protect-yourself-and-others.html

This aspect now needs to be added to the Rules of the Road,as the potential of being killed by a Vehicle after you lep off the footpath out onto the middle of the road to avoid another pedestrian FAR exceeds the risk of CV19 killing you....with or without a mask !

Informative article here from a former Consultant Pathologist...

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/face-masks-should-there-be-a-cover-up-

So,to my thinking,unless EVERYBODY is kitted out in Hazmat style masks,or even full hoods,then the current trend remains largely based on a feelgood factor (nothing wrong with that of itself)

If wearing a mask makes you feel better,then wear away....just don't be giving me daggers looks because you can see my sweet smile

The HSE's guidelines aren't realistic. They say masks are for the sick. Just think about all the asymptomatics showing no symptoms and can still spread it.

Instead of these stupid guidelines they should start working on educating people on how to wear masks properly.

AlekSmart · 05-05-2020 05:05PM

No: other

drunkmonkey wrote: »

N95 particulate respirators - Yes
Masks 3 for €5 on the counter at centra - No

I think I'd go maybe on the N95....particularly when the use is in the general environment.

The medical world does have stuff to cope...but whether it's compatible with the other worlds is the question..?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HEPA#/media/File:Portable_HEPA_filter.jpg

AlekSmart · 05-05-2020 05:09PM

No: other

Away With The Fairies wrote: »

The HSE's guidelines aren't realistic. They say masks are for the sick. Just think about all the asymptomatics showing no symptoms and can still spread it.

Instead of these stupid guidelines they should start working on educating people on how to wear masks properly.

They are......

https://www2.hse.ie/conditions/coronavirus/face-masks-disposable-gloves.html

Face masks

Wearing a mask is unlikely to be of any benefit if you are not sick.

If you do need to wear a mask, here is how to use one properly.
How to use a face mask properly

Do

Clean your hands properly before you put it on.

Cover your mouth and nose with the mask and make sure there are no gaps between your face and the mask.

Tie the mask securely. Replace the mask as soon as it is damp.

Don't

Do not touch the mask while wearing it - if you do, clean your hands properly.

Do not use a damp or wet mask.

Do not reuse a mask.

Taking a mask off

To take a mask off properly:

* remove it from behind - do not touch the front of the mask
* put it in a bin straight away
* clean your hands properly

2u2me · 05-05-2020 05:18PM

Wibbs wrote: »

The naysayers should read that website and the scientific literature. Our authorities should be forced to. Their inaction and not just on masks has almost certainly led to too many deaths already.

Almost certainly preventable deaths where mask usage has zero negative impact on anybody else. Not only that but they literally cost peanuts or next to nothing to make.

If it's because of a shortage maybe our leaders can be spared in the court of public opinion, but at this stage what the hell is their excuse?

There are “34 scientific papers indicating basic masks can be effective in reducing virus transmission in public — and not a single paper that shows clear evidence that they cannot.” -Washington Post

drunkmonkey wrote: »

You'd think in a hospital there would have been guidence on proper usage. This idiot is a health care worker. Plenty of health care workers beside him. There was I presume a doctor there not wearing any mask. We went to our doctor and he had a mask on but not over his nose.
It's not going to work in a safe manner when the professionals aren't using them correctly, or don't feel the need to. I'm gonna use that woke word as that's what it's starting to seem like with mask wearing, it seem to be the media pushing government on it rather than health care professionals. Get woke wear a mask.

To be fair, if you were to give health workers a break now is the time. Many of them might be volunteers just helping in a crisis? Over-worked and possibly tired.
I think the important take aways from your story are :

The hospitals are now requiring mask usage. The people that are experts in medicine and biology and such. If it was the media 'forcing them' why are the media not forcing other places of business?
The professionals don't seem to bothered about them, just that they are worn.

There could be a little less of the sanctimony though but again a little understandable given the times we are in.

What gets me is if you try to spread information that you should wear a mask on social media (contrary to WHO advice) you will have your information de-monetized at least and probably deleted/banned.
So it's a little less woke culture and a little more Orwellian.

It is literally double-think to believe that masks don't aid in preventing the spread of virus' like covid19.
Double-think that thankfully is being dispelled from the grass-roots up.

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I don't see any evidence that the risks out weigh the benefits if your healthy. If your healthy and get the virus on your mask and handle it or don't wear it correctly your putting yourself at greater risk as the viral load is concentrated on it.

At least you've already stopped those particles from entering your mouth! What you're saying is we might not stop them, so let's not even try?

Anyway the big movement around masks is not that it benefits you, but if enough of us are wearing them as a population it then has a massive effect on the spread rate. You are helping your neighbour.

Reminds me of the allegory of the long-spoons. Hell is a place where we try to use the longspoons to feed ourselves(and fail).
In heaven, everyone uses their long spoons to feed others.

Given the same level playing field one group of people who treat each other well will create a pleasant environment. Whereas another group of people, given exactly the same tools to work with, can create unpleasant conditions simply by how they treat each other. Writer Dawn Eden suggests that this is a simple truth which can be easily forgotten by lonely people unable to see their situation clearly. She argues that such situations can be improved by reaching out to others

Source

Wibbs · 05-05-2020 05:27PM

Yes: other

So let's recap, you were actively bullsh1tting about what the linked site said?

drunkmonkey wrote: »

It says keep your distance and be very careful desposing of masks as there's a huge viral load on them.

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I don't see any evidence that the risks out weigh the benefits if your healthy. If your healthy and get the virus on your mask and handle it or don't wear it correctly your putting yourself at greater risk as the viral load is concentrated on it.

Oh FFS, why can't this pass into your head, it's not about protecting you. Another graphic, hopefully what penny there exists, drops.

With the worke thing it just feels like it's something being forced in us, the Karen's are just waiting to let rip at people not wearing them.
If you feel safer in one fine, wear it. Don't force it like France where there using CCTV and drones to enforce compliance.

Actually, at this stage I think you must be on a windup. At least I hope you're on one.

AlekSmart wrote: »

That sounds like the most sensible option.

I'm happy to wait for the HSE's realistic guidelines to change.

Whilst you are obviously clued-in about mask-wearing in general,the vast majority would have difficulty seperating their N98 from their P45.

The HSE's current guidelines appear well founded on commonsense and do err on the side of freedom to choose ...

https://www2.hse.ie/conditions/coronavirus/face-masks-disposable-gloves.html

I'm happy enough with that.

https://www2.hse.ie/conditions/coronavirus/protect-yourself-and-others.html

Problem is the same HSE have screwed up too bloody often. They've been doing so for decades. Even the current minister said they weren't fit for purpose, I don't see how a crisis of this magnitude magically fixed them. Never mind that their top expert in infectious diseases during an official HSE news conference told the Irish public that living with a known Covid19 contact was of of so little risk that you should go about your life as normally as possible, until they presented with a "sore throat and sniffles"(which are uncommon symptoms for Covid19, known for over three months at that stage), that they weren't shedding virus until then. This was in March. A full month after the WHO stated the risk was a real one and the dogs on the street knew asymptomatic spread was a risk. Never mind that the same HSE have gone from no masks at all(save for when they suddenly magically work if you're already sick) to slowly introducing information on them. Even that information is a crappy copy paste job with misleading information in it.

Never mind that most health authorities out there who shared the HSE's take are now either reviewing mask wearing in enclosed spaces or have decreed them to be used. Apparently the French are even using drones now to check...

Informative article here from a former Consultant Pathologist...

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/face-masks-should-there-be-a-cover-up-

Not really, it's more of the same vagueness. They skirt around the aspect of source control for a start, never mind they appear to not understand how filtration actually works and seem to think a filter works like a tea strainer. It kinda doesn't and that's kinda muy importante.

So,to my thinking,unless EVERYBODY is kitted out in Hazmat style masks,or even full hoods,then the current trend remains largely based on a feelgood factor (nothing wrong with that of itself)

If wearing a mask makes you feel better,then wear away....just don't be giving me daggers looks because you can see my sweet smile

The problem is and the science is pretty clear on this, if I can see your sweet smile and you're infected you are expelling significantly more viral laden droplets into the air than if I couldn't. That's the problem. If you can't see my smile, then I'm reducing your risk. Then again trying to wrest people from their own self interest is likely the biggest hurdle here, and we've seen this elsewhere. In Asia when they're sck they traditionally wear masks to protect others. The Czechs seem to be the only western types to get that message across to people, with their I protect you, you protect me slogan. And again compare the numbers. They have ten times fewer deaths because they pulled their finger out and were proactive and not just with masks. The Irish authorities have been largely reactive, waiting for missives from the WHO.

Wibbs · 05-05-2020 05:33PM

Yes: other

AlekSmart wrote: »

They are......

https://www2.hse.ie/conditions/coronavirus/face-masks-disposable-gloves.html

Nope they're not. 1) they don't give any mention to the types of masks involved. 2) they tell people do not reuse a mask. So reusable masks suddenly aren't? It's the usual banal incompetence on display. They copy and pasted it word for word from the WHO section of a page on surgical mask use. Then again this is the same HSE and authorities that were telling us visiting elderly relatives was low risk when Italy were already stacking coffins high, that told us asymptomatic spread was of little or no risk, that border control was apparently unimportant, as was quarantine, that still have delays in testing results, that still have lacklustre contact tracing. Pardon me if I don't share your level of confidence in them.

hgfj · 05-05-2020 05:46PM

I wear a mask to protect myself, (as well as others).
Almost everyone says the masks are to protect others. While it is true the virus is so tiny that a thousand of them could fit across the width of a hair and could easily pass through most masks, what is also true is the fact that the virus is often trapped in droplets. So if somebody who has the virus sneezes or coughs or even just talks then the mask definitely offers some protection if it stops the DROPLETS that carry the virus from entering the respiratory system. That's what I think, anyway. Could be wrong.

ixoy · 05-05-2020 05:54PM

Saw this 'Why we should all be wearing face masks' article on BBC Future, that's well worth a read. Maybe it'll finally convince Wibbs - not sure what his position is

Away With The Fairies · 05-05-2020 05:55PM

Yes: valved

hgfj wrote: »

I wear a mask to protect myself, (as well as others).
Almost everyone says the masks are to protect others. While it is true the virus is so tiny that a thousand of them could fit across the width of a hair and could easily pass through most masks, what is also true is the fact that the virus is often trapped in droplets. So if somebody who has the virus sneezes or coughs or even just talks then the mask definitely offers some protection if it stops the DROPLETS that carry the virus from entering the respiratory system. That's what I think, anyway. Could be wrong.

Considering not everyone is wearing masks, I hope it provides some protection to the wearer. It's not very fair how we are going around protecting others, when others are not protecting us.

If someone sneezed in my face or close by while I'm wearing a mask, will it not soak through my mask and infect me? We should all be catching our coughs and sneezes and wear masks... They should be made mandatory.

Away With The Fairies · 05-05-2020 06:00PM

Yes: valved

AlekSmart wrote: »

They are......

https://www2.hse.ie/conditions/coronavirus/face-masks-disposable-gloves.html

They should have huge signs along with those 2m distance signs and have it in every public building. But guess that's not going to happen unless they change their tune on masks (only for the sick).

Wibbs · 05-05-2020 06:01PM

Yes: other

ixoy wrote: »

Saw this 'Why we should all be wearing face masks' article on BBC Future, that's well worth a read. Maybe it'll finally convince Wibbs - not sure what his position is

Me. Earlier in Lidl, reaching for the wine on the top shelf.

Boggles · 05-05-2020 07:07PM

AlekSmart wrote: »

They are......

https://www2.hse.ie/conditions/coronavirus/face-masks-disposable-gloves.html

A footnote embedded in some website is not "educating" how people should wear masks.

30 second recurring adds on telly like they have in Asia would do the trick.

Away With The Fairies · 05-05-2020 07:47PM

Yes: valved

Boggles wrote: »

A footnote embedded in some website is not "educating" how people should wear masks.

30 second recurring adds on telly like they have in Asia would do the trick.

I don't think TV adds will happen unless they change their idea on masks.

is_that_so · 05-05-2020 08:14PM

No: other

Away With The Fairies wrote: »

I don't think TV adds will happen unless they change their idea on masks.

The language on it is "may be required" and "will not be compulsory", so at most some friendly advice.

Masks

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