The UK response to Covid-19 [MOD WARNING 1ST POST]

Joe_ Public · 02-05-2020 10:38AM

Wonders never cease. I find myself heartily agreeing on something with Steve Beker. He is 1,000,000% right. Every minute we are talking about testing numbers is a minute less we are focusing on deaths or the care home tragedy. I fell for it too, hook line and sinker. Classic Dom.

https://twitter.com/SteveBakerHW/status/1256312806896365568?s=20

theological · 02-05-2020 10:59AM

Enzokk wrote: »

This adds nothing to this thread. You are just complaining to another poster that agrees with your point of view. At the same time you will lament the echo chamber of this thread, while you try to create your own. I find that somewhat hilarious, you complaining about the very thing you are doing.

By the way, has the advice been released yet that the UK Government based their policy on? How can you know if it was the "right decision at the right time" if you don't know what advice they were given and what policies they decided on from that advice?

I disagree. Offering a positive perspective on positive aspects of what is happening is beneficial. Otherwise we would only be hearing a one sided perspective of what is happening and also posters would be making highly speculative claims without being challenged.

I'm happy to bring balance to the discussion.

devnull wrote: »

The thread title is 'The UK Response to Covid-19' so there cannot be a disproportionate amount of attention in this thread, when it comes to the UK, because that is exactly what this thread is about. If you want a more general discussion then there is a thread for that in this forum.

This is the case regardless of however much people try and drag the thread off-topic and resort to whataboutery in order to try and deflect from the issues at hand and also to steer the discussion away from the title off this thread and attempt to shut down discussion about the topic at hand.

I'm aware of the title of the thread. The poster I was responding to was suggesting that the UK is looking for attention. I disagree, the UK isn't looking for attention. In fact a disproportionate amount of attention is given when people are seeking any opportunity to find a fault in the UK approach to coronavirus even when it isn't balanced with consideration of what else is happening in Europe.

Taking a holistic approach and analysing if the same problems are faced elsewhere isn't whataboutery. It is a useful tool to see if the criticisms of the posters on this thread are excessive.

I will continue to challenge claims which are unjustified on this basis.

As I always say, I'm happy to criticise in a balanced manner.

Enzokk · 02-05-2020 11:49AM

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Wonders never cease. I find myself heartily agreeing on something with Steve Beker. He is 1,000,000% right. Every minute we are talking about testing numbers is a minute less we are focusing on deaths or the care home tragedy. I fell for it too, hook line and sinker. Classic Dom.

Surely there is a better way than to let them get away with the incorrect numbers? If you just let them be then they will do it again and again and you will always have an excuse, "there are bigger fish to fry than focus on this tiny thing". You can focus on the numbers being wrong and the number of deaths at the same time and this is what should be done, not letting the UK Government get away with reporting the wrong numbers.

So no, Steve Baker isn't right completely, there should be questions about both the numbers and the deaths. This isn't a either or situation.

Enzokk · 02-05-2020 11:57AM

theological wrote: »

I disagree. Offering a positive perspective on positive aspects of what is happening is beneficial. Otherwise we would only be hearing a one sided perspective of what is happening and also posters would be making highly speculative claims without being challenged.

I'm happy to bring balance to the discussion.

It is hard to find positives of the UK response when there has been so many strange decisions from the government. You can try to shine a turd, but it is still a turd.

Joe_ Public · 02-05-2020 12:06PM

Enzokk wrote: »

Surely there is a better way than to let them get away with the incorrect numbers? If you just let them be then they will do it again and again and you will always have an excuse, "there are bigger fish to fry than focus on this tiny thing". You can focus on the numbers being wrong and the number of deaths at the same time and this is what should be done, not letting the UK Government get away with reporting the wrong numbers.

So no, Steve Baker isn't right completely, there should be questions about both the numbers and the deaths. This isn't a either or situation.

I think Baker is spot on tbh. I mean, didnt they just do the same again and again in the lead up to the election and what consequences did they face there? You could argue there is better opposition now and that they will be properly held to account but i think time will only tell on that.

Of course you can multi task when it comes to various aspects but any deflection helps surely. It even looks to me that they made the whole reaching target "achievement" so utterly transparently bogus that they anticipated the "media lefties" throwing a hissy fit and actively encouraged it.

I think the whole thing is monumentally silly, engaging in such farcical spin manoeuvres at such a grim time, but it serves their puepose and fits a longstanding pattern. 50% will still vote for them, Johnson's figures remain high and that pretty much is a bottom line for some.

Enzokk · 02-05-2020 12:58PM

Joe_ Public wrote: »

I think Baker is spot on tbh. I mean, didnt they just do the same again and again in the lead up to the election and what consequences did they face there? You could argue there is better opposition now and that they will be properly held to account but i think time will only tell on that.

Of course you can multi task when it comes to various aspects but any deflection helps surely. It even looks to me that they made the whole reaching target "achievement" so utterly transparently bogus that they anticipated the "media lefties" throwing a hissy fit and actively encouraged it.

I think the whole thing is monumentally silly, engaging in such farcical spin manoeuvres at such a grim time, but it serves their puepose and fits a longstanding pattern. 50% will still vote for them, Johnson's figures remain high and that pretty much is a bottom line for some.

I don't think this is part of some plan though, more just luck from incompetence than anything planned. There was stories that Hancock was on his own by setting the target of 100 000 tests and it is likely that this spin is from his side and not Cummings. Look at the way they were focusing on the achievement yesterday, I think it is more likely you are seeing ministers under pressure trying to make every positive noise they can while not screwing up so much they get fired.

We saw it with the PPE from Turkey, they took a gamble and in that case it didn't work out. I don't see anyone proclaiming some big plan from Cummings for that, because most times it is just incompetence from people under pressure. I mean we could take this theory so far that Baker is a Cummings plant to get people off the discussion about the numbers as well. Where do we stop?

Joe_ Public · 02-05-2020 01:27PM

Enzokk wrote: »

I don't think this is part of some plan though, more just luck from incompetence than anything planned. There was stories that Hancock was on his own by setting the target of 100 000 tests and it is likely that this spin is from his side and not Cummings. Look at the way they were focusing on the achievement yesterday, I think it is more likely you are seeing ministers under pressure trying to make every positive noise they can while not screwing up so much they get fired.

We saw it with the PPE from Turkey, they took a gamble and in that case it didn't work out. I don't see anyone proclaiming some big plan from Cummings for that, because most times it is just incompetence from people under pressure. I mean we could take this theory so far that Baker is a Cummings plant to get people off the discussion about the numbers as well. Where do we stop?

Cummings was out of action for some time, though, so i dont know how active he might have been in relation to earlier events. Of course i could be wrong, it's just this has all the hallmarks of a Cummings stunt for me. Reminds me of the furore over Johnson not signing the brexit extension letter which distracted from the real story which was Johnson failing to fulfil another promise. It's not exactly the same but it's in similar territory.

I'm not suggesting they shouldn't be tackled on it, clearly they have to be. My biggest criticism would be reserved for the scientists allowing themselves to be used as willing dupes in this subterfuge. This isnt or shouldn't be trumps america. They should have higher personal standards than that.

CelticRambler · 02-05-2020 02:10PM

Enzokk wrote: »

Surely there is a better way than to let them get away with the incorrect numbers?

Yep - don't bother obsessing over numbers that, for all practical and disease management purposes, are of absolutely no use.

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Interesting chart here. Of 20 countries surveyed for tests per confirmed cases as of April 28th, the UK is second last, just pipping Ecuador.

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

For example and pro rata, Ireland has done more double the number of UK tests.

These charts and league tables are nothing more than fodder for social media debates. You cannot determine the prevalence of a disease by limiting a (technically flawed) test to a subset of the population. If you're not testing everyone in a closed group, you might as well not bother at all, unless it's needed to determine the treatment needed by a sick patient, or to apply strict isolation measures.

Debating whether or not Hancock is/has been disingenuous in this regard is as just as much of a strawman argument on the part of the UK's critics (of which I would be one) as any amount of whataboutIreland|Europe|ery on the part of the UK's defenders.

It really doesn't matter whether Hancock supervises the distribution and processing of 10000, 100000 or 1000000 tests when these are done in a completely haphazard and irrational fashion, and with no guarantee of accuracy (particularly for the home tests). Personally, I think it's an enormous waste of the British taxpayers' money for no good reason other than to help the government save face.

Joe_ Public · 02-05-2020 02:20PM

I can see it's not all about the numbers. Vietnam are at the top of that tests per positive result chart but they're not particularly doing high volumes of tests. They've had no corona related deaths yet. Similarly, everybody talked about South Korea's great testing system but I dont think they were ever doing more than 20-25,000 a day. It's obviously how they target it and use it in conjunction with tracing that is the key. The numbers just tend to be a distraction and we all can get too caught up in it.

Christy42 · 02-05-2020 02:29PM

Joe_ Public wrote: »

I can see it's not all about the numbers. Vietnam are at the top of that tests per positive result chart but they're not particularly doing high volumes of tests. They've had no corona related deaths yet. Similarly, everybody talked about South Korea's great testing system but I dont think they were ever doing more than 20-25,000 a day. It's obviously how they target it and use it in conjunction with tracing that is the key. The numbers just tend to be a distraction and we all can get too caught up in it.

The difference is timing. South Korea was miles above everyone at the start. Miles and Miles above in testing.

They got it under control and it reduced the need for testing. We were later and so require more. The UK will need even more than us.

Numbers are important but are not everything

Joe_ Public · 02-05-2020 03:08PM

Christy42 wrote: »

The difference is timing. South Korea was miles above everyone at the start. Miles and Miles above in testing.

They got it under control and it reduced the need for testing. We were later and so require more. The UK will need even more than us.

Numbers are important but are not everything

Yes, excellent points. They acted early helped in part due to the fact that they had the mers epidemic a few years back and had an inkling what to expect. They had a very rigourous contact tracing system which was successful because they have a relatively very compliant population which enabled them to avoid a full lockdown. Our policy is obviously to get spread down and have track and trace policy ready to suppress any potential second wave. Remains to be seen how well we execute it.

bilston · 02-05-2020 03:30PM

The testing malarky is all a bit after the Lord Mayor's show in the UK. However it will help in the gradual easement of lockdown and presumably will help in the event of a second wave.

Again it still baffles me why they moved away from mass testing at the beginning. I'd be more critical of that than any alleged delay in the lockdown. They at least have an argument for delaying the lockdown based on public fatigue (whether you agree or not), but I just don't see any reason why they didn't scale up testing from the beginning.

A Dub in Glasgo · 02-05-2020 03:43PM

Scotland:
In hospital: 1,674 (-135)
In ICU: 108 (-2)
Total confirmed positive cases: 11,927 (+273)
Total deaths with confirmed positive COVID-19: 1,559 (+44)

Therefore as it stands, there are a minimum of 2,569 (1,559+1,010) deaths in Scotland (confirmed positive and suspected)

BonnieSituation · 02-05-2020 03:49PM

bilston wrote: »

The testing malarky is all a bit after the Lord Mayor's show in the UK. However it will help in the gradual easement of lockdown and presumably will help in the event of a second wave.

Again it still baffles me why they moved away from mass testing at the beginning. I'd be more critical of that than any alleged delay in the lockdown. They at least have an argument for delaying the lockdown based on public fatigue (whether you agree or not), but I just don't see any reason why they didn't scale up testing from the beginning.

They didn't scale up testing because they didn't want proof of just how widespread it was so early and how detrimental the herd immunity idea would be to the most vulnerable in society.

It's easier to not tell the truth fully than it is to lie.

Joe_ Public · 02-05-2020 04:13PM

Cant find transcripts from 12 march which is when they announced they were stopping widespread testing and tracing but this is what Chris Whitty was reported as saying:

"It is no longer needed to identify every case, so we will pivot testing capacity to identify people in hospitals with symptoms to ensure they don’t pass it on,” added Whitty. He also said there would no longer be any geographical limits for testing but testing would be based on symptoms and severity and not travel history."

Then 5 days later, the march 17 pivot, he said this:

"The one thing which we did stop doing was testing based on geography, which was early on, because at this stage geography is much less important in a disease. Now, we do intend to continue to scale up testing, but I think it’s important to realize the scale of UK testing, which has been substantial, and just to give, just some numbers on that, over 44,000 tests conducted, of which 40, over 42,000 were negative."

Dont really understand what he's getting at, but the second reads as if he's trying to cover himself for the mistakes of the first. The fact he tries to portray 44,000 tests by mid march as "substantial" is a bit of a giveaway.

Seth Brundle · 02-05-2020 04:44PM

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Dont really understand what he's getting at, but the second reads as if he's trying to cover himself for the mistakes of the first. The fact he tries to portray 44,000 tests by mid march as "substantial" is a bit of a giveaway.

I don't blame you for not understanding. It's all this top secret science that has baffled the best medical and scientific minds around the globe.

robinph · 02-05-2020 05:03PM

What is the ratio of tests done v positive results for other countries, and are the tests themselves actually different?

Testing seems like a great idea, but if you test 100,000 people who claim to have symptoms and only 6,000 come back positive each day then it's basically a complete waste of time and money. Most of those 6k positives are presumably the really ill people in hospital still or care staff who have been exposed to a lot of virus.

Are the tests coming back mostly negative in the rest of the world? If they are then time and testing everywhere would be better spent testing people who there is actually a reason to think they might have the virus, not just pissing the tests up against a wall. Two weeks ago they were testing 10k and getting 6k +ive, now they are testing 100k and getting 6k +ive.

RobMc59 · 02-05-2020 05:08PM

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Scotland:
In hospital: 1,674 (-135)
In ICU: 108 (-2)
Total confirmed positive cases: 11,927 (+273)
Total deaths with confirmed positive COVID-19: 1,559 (+44)

Therefore as it stands, there are a minimum of 2,569 (1,559+1,010) deaths in Scotland (confirmed positive and suspected)

Thanks for posting something interesting,24 hours of yesterday's tests in the UK by a few posters beginning to wear a bit thin I think. :-(

VinLieger · 02-05-2020 06:25PM

robinph wrote: »

What is the ratio of tests done v positive results for other countries, and are the tests themselves actually different?

Testing seems like a great idea, but if you test 100,000 people who claim to have symptoms and only 6,000 come back positive each day then it's basically a complete waste of time and money. Most of those 6k positives are presumably the really ill people in hospital still or care staff who have been exposed to a lot of virus.

Are the tests coming back mostly negative in the rest of the world? If they are then time and testing everywhere would be better spent testing people who there is actually a reason to think they might have the virus, not just pissing the tests up against a wall. Two weeks ago they were testing 10k and getting 6k +ive, now they are testing 100k and getting 6k +ive.

Testing en masse by itself is indeed pretty pointless in the scenario you outlined. But if you add track and trace on top then you can focus the next round of tests in areas where there are known outbreaks or give them to people who have cobfirmed contact with someone infected to make the best use of them.

This is why so many people cannot understand their decision to stop track and trace on March 12th.

Donald Trump · 02-05-2020 06:33PM

robinph wrote: »

What is the ratio of tests done v positive results for other countries, and are the tests themselves actually different?

Testing seems like a great idea, but if you test 100,000 people who claim to have symptoms and only 6,000 come back positive each day then it's basically a complete waste of time and money. Most of those 6k positives are presumably the really ill people in hospital still or care staff who have been exposed to a lot of virus.

You should let those eejits at the WHO know.

All the years they have spent studying and monitoring these things and they can't even get the basics right. Typical "experts"

CelticRambler · 02-05-2020 06:34PM

robinph wrote: »

What is the ratio of tests done v positive results for other countries ...

Think of a number and double it (or halve it, your choice).

robinph wrote: »

are the tests themselves actually different?

Yes

robinph wrote: »

Testing seems like a great idea, but if you test 100,000 people who claim to have symptoms and only 6,000 come back positive each day then it's basically a complete waste of time and money. Most of those 6k positives are presumably the really ill people in hospital still or care staff who have been exposed to a lot of virus.

Negative results aren't a waste of money in and of themselves - it all depends on why they're negative.
- Is it because the test is faulty (e.g. all those we're-better-than-the-WHO US tests)? Then yes, they're a waste of money.
- Is it because they're not carried out correctly (e.g. [probably] most of the home-administered UK tests)? Then yes, they're a waste of money.
- Is it because they're (re-)confirming the negative status of someone who's pretty much guaranteed to have had no contact with the virus? Then yes, that's a waste of money too.
- Is it because they're (re-)confirming the negative status of someone who might have or did have the virus? Then no, that's useful information, provided that it's used in a meaningful way - and not corrupted by a load of false negatives.
- Is it because you're screening everyone in a closed community, or at least a very large sample (e.g. Iceland, or the German study in Gangelt)? No, that's not a waste either, because that gives a more accurate picture of how widespread the disease is, and most usefully: the level of asymptomatic carriers.

As I mentioned earlier, in the course of a pandemic, it's of limited interest to test sick people when they're showing typical signs, because you know they're positive, so that could be considered a waste of money, and a high % of postive tests per number of people tested (in the league tables) would suggest that the country is not using their resources efficiently.

There are two times/situations when testing is really useful:
(1) At the beginning:
- (a) test all the WTF? cases to confirm that they are early examples of this new disease, then - if positive - test all their contacts to find out if they're also positive
- (b) randomly sample all the individuals coming into the zone [i.e. country, in this case] to get an idea of the risk, especially from asymptomatic carriers: are they literally 1-in-a-million, or is more like 1-in-a-plane-load? and where are they coming from? *

(2) When it's all turned to 5h!t (because you let the disease in through not being aggressive enough at step 1):
- (a) randomly test a representative group of individuals from several different regions to understand the level of infection, and use the results to direct containment measures;
- (b) having prohibited movement between high-infection areas and low-infection areas, repeatedly test the individuals that move between those areas nevertheless, having quarantined them for at least as long as the known incubation period.

* Whenever the 2016 pandemic readiness plan is eventually released, I would expect to see that there should have been an operation in place to send a team to Heathrow (at least) to screen at least ten thousand arriving passengers over the course of 24 hours, using an on-site lab for fastest results. This kind of measure is relatively cheap and yields an enormous amount of useful information, and is "current practice" in many other situations. If it's not included in the plan, that'll be a major oversight. With hindsight, we now know that this would have identified dozens, maybe even hundreds, of symptomatic and asymptomatic carriers coming into the UK not just from China, but from several parts of Europe aswell. As a result, it would have been relatively easy to split the future arrivals into high and low risk, and then adapt further testing - and quarantine - accordingly.

RobMc59 · 02-05-2020 07:11PM

Another admirable test count and fatalities at 621.Hopefully the UK is past the peak.
Despite years of tory austerity the NHS has risen to the challenge and acquitted itself well under the circumstances so far.

RobMc59 · 02-05-2020 07:24PM

Donald Trump wrote: »

You should let those eejits at the WHO know.

All the years they have spent studying and monitoring these things and they can't even get the basics right. Typical "experts"

Donald I'm confused,I was under the impression the WHO line 'test,test,test' was the way forward. The advice from all quarters either changes and experts across all countries seem to have different opinions!

declanflynn · 02-05-2020 07:38PM

RobMc59 wrote: »

Another admirable test count and fatalities at 621.Hopefully the UK is past the peak.
Despite years of tory austerity the NHS has risen to the challenge and acquitted itself well under the circumstances so far.

yeah I agree dispite the uk government the nhs have done a great job, the same goes for the hse here and frontline workers everywhere

theological · 02-05-2020 07:43PM

RobMc59 wrote: »

Another admirable test count and fatalities at 621.Hopefully the UK is past the peak.
Despite years of tory austerity the NHS has risen to the challenge and acquitted itself well under the circumstances so far.

Hopefully next week we see a much bigger dip in these numbers.

It is still much too high at 621.

robinph wrote: »

What is the ratio of tests done v positive results for other countries, and are the tests themselves actually different?

Testing seems like a great idea, but if you test 100,000 people who claim to have symptoms and only 6,000 come back positive each day then it's basically a complete waste of time and money. Most of those 6k positives are presumably the really ill people in hospital still or care staff who have been exposed to a lot of virus.

Are the tests coming back mostly negative in the rest of the world? If they are then time and testing everywhere would be better spent testing people who there is actually a reason to think they might have the virus, not just pissing the tests up against a wall. Two weeks ago they were testing 10k and getting 6k +ive, now they are testing 100k and getting 6k +ive.

It isn't pissing the tests up the wall. If more people are tested and 6k are positive and the tests are distributed in pretty even measure around the population that would tell us that the spread of the virus is slowing. As proportionately more people are tested the cases per day is not rising substantially.

Edit: Mass testing on a regular basis also helps us to identify where in the country the disease is spreading. This could be helpful for determining how and when it is easy to ease measures.

There were 4,806 positive cases reported today, so lower than 6,000 also.

CelticRambler · 02-05-2020 09:06PM

theological wrote: »

If more people are tested and 6k are positive and the tests are distributed in pretty even measure around the population that would tell us that the spread of the virus is slowing.

Nope, not unless there's active management of who's getting the tests, and reliable quality control of the testing process. Both of those a missing from the current strategy - any Tom, Dick or Harriet can ask for a test now, and healthcare workers are being re-tested to show that the they're (still/once again) virus-free.

This way of carrying out testing cannot say anything about the spread of the virus, other than tentatively identifying the geographical extent of it's presence, because it is not being done efficiently or with any defined purpose - other than meeting an arbritrary target.

theological wrote: »

Mass testing on a regular basis also helps us to identify where in the country the disease is spreading. This could be helpful for determining how and when it is easy to ease measures.

Nope - see above. Remember, the current test is only a snapshot of what's happening on the day of testing amongst those people who have self-selected. That's no help at all in determining what's really happening.

theological wrote: »

There were 4,806 positive cases reported today, so lower than 6,000 also.

How many of the real positives showed up as false negatives due to inappropriate testing technique?
And how many samples were tested, to allow those 4806 positives to be reported?
Flooding the system with false negatives will produce an artificially lower number of daily positives, because capacity hasn't actually been increased that much.

Donald Trump · 02-05-2020 11:49PM

RobMc59 wrote: »

Donald I'm confused,I was under the impression the WHO line 'test,test,test' was the way forward. The advice from all quarters either changes and experts across all countries seem to have different opinions!

Ah Rob. Perhaps I should have explicitly pointed out that I was being sarcastic.

You are correct. The WHO emphasised "testing testing testing". In fact, my post did not dispute that fact.

I was responding to the poster who was telling us that testing was a waste of time!

Memnoch · 03-05-2020 02:32AM

Aegir wrote: »

For most of the Brits on here, the confusion is why are posters dedication so much time to criticising the Conservative party, yet seem to have little or no opinion on what is happening here. you know, in this country, the one we live in.

I do care about Brexit, yes. Probably not in the way your prejudice would lead you to believe though.

Apologies for the delay in my reply. Broadly speaking, the defenders of the current British administration seem to be people who agree with Brexit. This is what I noticed in the thread and it does not seem to be an unreasonable assumption since that is also a policy driven by this government. Please feel free to disregard my remarks with respect to Brexit in this issue if you feel they do not apply to your position.

this must be confusing for an Irish poster. The British press and the Irish press are polar opposites when it comes to their respective governments. The British press are constantly looking for things to criticise the government about and generally have an adversarial relationship with Mps.

I disagree. It is true that Irish political discourse, at least in the Republic, seems to be more civil. However, in my estimation, the majority of the British press have been broadly supportive and indeed extremely defensive of the policies and behavior of the conservative party over the past 10 years. This was witnessed throughout Brexit where politicians were allowed to get away with blatant mistruths without challenge. And we have seen the same even here in the daily press conferences during this pandemic. There has been very little forensic questioning. As I said in my previous reply, this level of scrutiny and criticism by the right-wing press is quite shocking and indicates the scale of negligence/wrongdoing by this government.

Regardless, for a democracy to exist, the press must hold the government's feet to the fire.

now is not the time to hold an enquiry. We will be discussing this in a years time. That is when the performance of each country needs to be assessed. What is important is that the government is doing everything it can on a day to day basis to address the issues and resolve them.

Except it did not and it was not. They lied about PPE, they lied about testing and they are lying about the numbers that this pandemic has killed in the UK. They have not been doing anything near what was required. Ramping up testing after the peak has passed might help in securing the end of the lockdown but not testing effectively for the first six weeks left the British population completely exposed. Their ineptitude and failures are too many to list and have been extensively pointed out throughout this discussion. That you can say this with a straight face is difficult to comprehend.

Evidence seems to suggest that this is the case for every country that has been affected. The true cost of this will become more apparant when it is over. I put it to you, that the reason why people on here are clammering to make the numbers as high as possible is so they can continue to point fingers at the Conservative party, because lets face it, this thread isn't about the "UK" response, it is about the conservative party. If that were not the case, then Nicola Sturgeon missing five COBR meetings, or Conor Murphy's somewhat confusing statements about PPE would be analysed as well. Yet oddly, they are not

The conservative party has ultimate authority over policy in the UK, moreover it has direct control over a large majority of the British population (such as England) and where, it would seem, the virus has hit hardest.

Nobody wants to make the numbers as high as possible. What we do want is that tens of thousands of British citizens should not have lost their lives needlessly and then for those people's deaths to be effectively erased from history in order to prevent a group of politicians who have acted either with malice or incompetence, probably a combination of both, from being held accountable. I really don't care which party would have been in power. I would be making the same arguments regardless.

Also, it is not every country which has been affected thus. Certainly, the citizens of France and Spain have serious questions to ask of their governments. On very superficial observation, it seems reasonable to take account of the fact that Italy was the first European country to really get hit by this thing and thus we can make some allowances for their government's sluggish response/initial arrogance. But the British government had two weeks to see what was unfolding in Italy and they minimized and made light of the situation and one of the government's most senior advisers was quoted as being willing to let old people die.

Many countries, including Ireland, have handled the situation far better and this has shown in the results. This is not to absolve Ireland in any way but this is not a thread about Ireland.

can you provide evidence to support this claim?

Which particular aspect you require evidence for? At the beginning of this situation we already have Dominic Cummings quoted in the Sunday Times as willing to let old people die.

We know that testing was not done in any effective capacity until well after the peak had passed.

We know that this government has repeatedly lied and dissembled about every aspect of this crisis from ventilators, to PPE to testing.

We know that the excess deaths are closer to 50,000 while the official Covid numbers sit at 27,000.

This government has sought to influence those numbers by not testing, not counting and applying pressure on the information included in the death certificate. They have consistently acted in ways that frustrate rather than enable the accurate reporting and accounting of Covid deaths. This has consistently resulted in their numbers being grotesquely lower than the number of excess deaths would indicate.

Why are not on the main thread accusing the Irish government of causing the deaths of hundreds of people through incompetance and malice? Some of the reports coming out from the nursing homes (despite the HSE notorious ability to cover these things up) are really shocking.

Firstly, this is blatant whatabouttry. For any point that anyone makes in any discussion it can simply be said why are they not making a point about other countries and other threads or other subjects. This is not a defensible line of argument.

That said, I agree that the Irish response in protecting the elderly has been severely lacking and there must be a forensic examination and accounting for this. However, it does not seem that Ireland has tried to conceal or minimize the numbers in this regard in the way that the UK has.

But yes, the West has failed their elderly and this is shameful. But the UK might very well have committed gentricide and this is abominable.

For most of the Brits on here, the confusion is why are posters dedication so much time to criticising the Conservative party, yet seem to have little or no opinion on what is happening here. you know, in this country, the one we live in.

This is a thread about the UK response. Whataboutry like this by you would suggest that your arguments are not sincere.

I have a lot of family in the United Kingdom including three doctors. While I am deeply disappointed in the Irish failure to protect our elderly population the Irish government did not make light of the situation at the outset and seemed to take strong measures from the beginning. Nor do they seem to be trying to hide the numbers. How many medics have died in Ireland?

The UK response should be judged and discussed on its own merits. If you need to point to other countries this shows that you cannot defend what they have done.

Enzokk · 03-05-2020 09:17AM

Are we still allowed to discuss the UK Government response to the pandemic on here? Just want to make sure people's feeling will not be hurt by the following links I will post. Please read this only if you don't take offence to criticism of Johnson and his Government,

https://twitter.com/BBCNewsnight/status/1256350285364187138?s=20

Discussing a letter from Hong Kong at the end of January stating any country with close transport links with China will need to act to ensure it doesn't become a epicenter for the virus. I know the UK has been working hard to increase the transport links with China as they see it as a area of growth for the airlines and the country.

Then onto the PPE,

How poor planning left the UK without enough PPE

The tweets were terse and, to the uninitiated, obscure. “Gowns” — “examination gloves” — “green aprons” — read the messages from the accounts of procurement leaders in the UK’s National Health Service. But to their colleagues in other hospitals, each represented a cry for help, signalling shortfalls of key items of personal protective equipment (PPE) needed to keep clinicians safe while they fought a once-in-a-century battle against coronavirus.

Behind the tweets — coded, because the managers feared bosses’ wrath for publicising the shortages — lies the story of a government slow to recognise the scale of PPE that would be needed during the pandemic, of shifting guidelines that left staff feeling confused and vulnerable, and of a belated operation to source the vast number of items needed that left the UK playing catch-up with other nations to secure its share of scarce supplies.

The story goes on to highlight the PPE advice and shortages in the UK. One of the problems identified was that they were caught with their pants down and have been trying to play catch up from the start,

The person estimated that the UK had been “three to four weeks behind some of the biggest buyers in the world” in launching its overseas push for PPE “and that’s all that matters because that’s when all the deals were done”.

Part of the problem, said Peter Smith, a former Whitehall head of procurement who runs the consultancy Procurement Excellence, was that until the Covid-19 crisis PPE procurement was not a sensitive sector: “We didn’t need to do a lot of risk management or get risk alerts about what’s going on out in the country of manufacture — until three months ago, when the world totally changed.”

And then finally, back on testing. This seems quite important if you are going to be shouting about your test totals,

Coronavirus: 'Small number' of home tests are useless - despite being included in government figures

The government has admitted that "a small number" of the home coronavirus tests sent out do not have the right information to be processed.

On Friday the government announced it had met its target of 100,000 daily tests - though there was criticism that the figure included home testing kits and tests carried out at satellite centres that haven't yet been returned.

Now it appears that some of these home testing kits are useless.

Several key workers who were posted tests have been in touch with Sky News to say theirs have no return label. They have therefore been instructed to throw the COVID-19 test away.

These things happen when you are rushing to reach a target. It's a shame for those that requested the test, they have to wait for a new test to be sent to them and there is a waiting time for this to happen.

I also found this part to be ineresting,

Tom Howell, a teacher in Leeds, said the instructions on his test explained not to take it until a return delivery slot was booked - he guessed to prevent the quality of sample deteriorating.

But he was unable to book the courier without a tracking code on a prepaid label, which wasn't included.

So they couldn't take the test at home before they have a delivery slot booked. It's a shame we don't know how long the wait time is for the delivery slots. If there is a couple days wait, it again makes me question why you would include tests done on the day, 30 April, for tests that isn't physically done. It's dishonest again and unfortunately it does nothing to instill any confidence in Hancock or the UK Government to do the right thing, instead of the right thing for them personally.

Akrasia · 03-05-2020 09:56AM

Enzokk wrote: »

Are we still allowed to discuss the UK Government response to the pandemic on here? Just want to make sure people's feeling will not be hurt by the following links I will post. Please read this only if you don't take offence to criticism of Johnson and his Government,

https://twitter.com/BBCNewsnight/status/1256350285364187138?s=20

Discussing a letter from Hong Kong at the end of January stating any country with close transport links with China will need to act to ensure it doesn't become a epicenter for the virus. I know the UK has been working hard to increase the transport links with China as they see it as a area of growth for the airlines and the country.

Then onto the PPE,

How poor planning left the UK without enough PPE

The story goes on to highlight the PPE advice and shortages in the UK. One of the problems identified was that they were caught with their pants down and have been trying to play catch up from the start,

And then finally, back on testing. This seems quite important if you are going to be shouting about your test totals,

Coronavirus: 'Small number' of home tests are useless - despite being included in government figures

These things happen when you are rushing to reach a target. It's a shame for those that requested the test, they have to wait for a new test to be sent to them and there is a waiting time for this to happen.

I also found this part to be ineresting,

So they couldn't take the test at home before they have a delivery slot booked. It's a shame we don't know how long the wait time is for the delivery slots. If there is a couple days wait, it again makes me question why you would include tests done on the day, 30 April, for tests that isn't physically done. It's dishonest again and unfortunately it does nothing to instill any confidence in Hancock or the UK Government to do the right thing, instead of the right thing for them personally.

They’re just spoofers in every way that actually matters. spoofing the number of deaths, spoofing the number of cases and spoofing the number of tests.

They’re also spoofing the science, spoofing the lockdown and will probably end up spoofing the roadmap to raising the lockdown which will possibly result in the worst 2nd wave in Europe to go along with the worst 1st wave

And half the UK population will cheer them on as the mass graves are dug and their economy evaporates around them

Brexit hasn’t gone away either, these spoofers are still trying to engineer a no deal crash out in 7 months time. It’s breathtaking how a once respectable country/union has so comprehensively self destructed in such a short timeframe

The UK response to Covid-19 [MOD WARNING 1ST POST]

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