The UK response to Covid-19 [MOD WARNING 1ST POST]

Enzokk · 30-04-2020 10:01PM

blinding wrote: »

I am not the one quoting James O’ Brien as a reliable source on the British People / British matters ! !

I am just posting out that he a a good source of getting stuff wrong on the British people and British matters.

I assume you are concerned about accuracy ! !

I am, tell me what was inaccurate about that tweet. Or are we to exclude anyone that has gotten a prediction wrong in the past?

A Dub in Glasgo · 30-04-2020 10:28PM

The UK Govt dashboard on the website https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/#countries does not include the totals from Scotland and NI today therefore the figures are underreported by 69 (60 Scotland & 9 NI). How can they get this so wrong?

Total with positive COVID-19 should be 26,840

CelticRambler · 30-04-2020 10:34PM

RobMc59 wrote: »

I worked for a French company some time ago who were manufacturing an intermediate for astra zenicas cholesterol drug and the underhanded tactics by their rival Pfizer who even somehow managed to involve the FDA in their shenanigans was scandalous.
I mention this as I wonder if you might expect any underhanded tactics over who produces a vaccine?

Oh yes! If, through a series of unfortunate events, it's an American company producing it under a Trump 2.0 presidency, then every possible underhanded tactic will be used to keep as much of the vaccine in American bodies before the surplus is sold to the highest bidder (or used as a sweetener for a great Trade Deal)

But then again, the American's haven't been able to administer humane lethal injections to their Death Row inmates for quite some time now, because the key ingredients they need come from European suppliers, and the EU has a thing about not killing prisoners. So if it happens that the vaccine needs something that comes from an Irish or Belgian pharmaceutical plant, the US might suddenly find supplies disrupted ...

This is where the free-floating, sovereign and independent UK will be forced to take sides, especially if an Anglo-European consortium comes up with the winning formula, and the EU insists on having a significant input into the regulation of production and distribution of a vaccine.

All that's hypothetical for now, though, as other (effective and life-saving) treatments will reduce the need for vaccination ... unless, of course, a particular government decides to award a contract to a vaccine company (with or without vaccines :rolleyes: ) to supply 60 million doses a year, for the sake of being seen to be doing something.

robinph · 30-04-2020 10:41PM

Enzokk wrote: »

If they ramped up at more than double the from the day before to yeaterday (I believe they were at or around 40 000 tests) then there will be a lag in the results as getting the test is only one step in the process.

The number of tests being done has been increasing, slowly, until last week at which point it increased massively and they changed who they were testing from the weekend. Unless they are holding back those positive results for a week then something weird is going on that it's still only 5k a day they were testing 20k since before the weekend up from the previous 10k tests a day earlier in the week. Yet still only getting 5k positive results.

blinding · 30-04-2020 11:36PM

Enzokk wrote: »

I am, tell me what was inaccurate about that tweet. Or are we to exclude anyone that has gotten a prediction wrong in the past?

So wrong on Brexit, wrong on the General Election, self confessed wrong on Boris Johnson. James O’Brien the man that gets pretty much everything wrong on the British People and British Matters. James O’Brien = Loser and wrong.

Irish People need to get a better source on the British People and British Matters if they are ever to get any understanding of the British People and British Matters ! ! !

Enzokk · 01-05-2020 12:08AM

blinding wrote: »

So wrong on Brexit, wrong on the General Election, self confessed wrong on Boris Johnson. James O’Brien the man that gets pretty much everything wrong on the British People and British Matters. James O’Brien = Loser and wrong.

Irish People need to get a better source on the British People and British Matters if they are ever to get any understanding of the British People and British Matters ! ! !

Thanks for the links.

Memnoch · 01-05-2020 12:17AM

blinding wrote: »

I assume you are concerned about accuracy ! !

Blinding,

I want to try and understand where posters like yourself and Aegir, with your view, are genuinely coming from. Clearly, you care very strongly about the UK and about British people. I'm guessing that you are very passionate about Brexit.

Let's for a second put aside the idea of teams. This is not a football match where we are trying to score goals against each other. It's not about which side is right or wrong or who is winning. It's not about gloating or looking down on anyone.

I'm simply trying to reach out to you here as one human being who is coming from a genuine place to another and trying to understand where you're coming from.

I'm trying to understand what you genuinely feel about all the evidence that has been presented, largely in right-wing British outlets like the daily mail, the telegraph, the times and the financial Times showing the scale of needless loss of British life.

By all accounts (even according to the official ONS figures) there are thousands of extra deaths each week that are going unexplained. There is also evidence that this government was willing to let old people die. There is a video of the Prime Minister making light of the dangers of Covid-19 in March.

Every indication shows that around 46,000 more British citizens have lost their lives already during this period then has been the case for the past five years. (The government only acknowledged 27,000 as Covid – they tested positive at a time where there was very little testing at the peak of the pandemic)

The evidence also very strongly suggests that at least half of these are in the vulnerable and elderly age group. We are talking about more than 20,000 elderly British citizens. There does not seem to have been any plan to protect these citizens. There was no PPE for care homes, there was no testing, patients were being released to care homes even after testing positive in hospital or not being tested at all.

By contrast, there have only been 6000 total deaths in Germany. Even if we double this it would be 12,000.

I want you to imagine for a moment that it was an act of Islamic terrorism that caused the death of 46,000 people in the UK. How would you react to that?

I cannot understand how anyone who claims to have any sort of affinity or regard for the British people can simply look the other way on this as you and posters like Aegir and Robmc seem to be doing.

What is the point of Brexit if the most vulnerable in society are so casually cast aside? Isn't Brexit all about putting British people first?

You have a government that at the very least has caused tens of thousands of unnecessary deaths of their citizens through incompetence or negligence and at the worst through malice.

I'm genuinely trying to understand how you are not absolutely furious about this? Is your political allegiance to Boris Johnson and the conservative party really worth that much to you? Is it just about “owning the Libs”? Or is it the case that you cannot dare to comprehend that you supported these people who have created this horrific situation that has led to so much unnecessary loss of British life? Is it just simply a matter of your pride?

What is it you really care about here? What if anything do you really stand for if you don't even stand for the elderly citizens who contributed to building up the UK only to be casually and cruelly discarded by the government that was elected to look after them?

I would appreciate a genuine response rather than deflection or obfuscation.

blinding · 01-05-2020 12:46AM

Memnoch wrote: »

Blinding,

I want to try and understand where posters like yourself and Aegir, with your view, are genuinely coming from. Clearly, you care very strongly about the UK and about British people. I'm guessing that you are very passionate about Brexit.

Let's for a second put aside the idea of teams. This is not a football match where we are trying to score goals against each other. It's not about which side is right or wrong or who is winning. It's not about gloating or looking down on anyone.

I'm simply trying to reach out to you here as one human being who is coming from a genuine place to another and trying to understand where you're coming from.

I'm trying to understand what you genuinely feel about all the evidence that has been presented, largely in right-wing British outlets like the daily mail, the telegraph, the times and the financial Times showing the scale of needless loss of British life.

By all accounts (even according to the official ONS figures) there are thousands of extra deaths each week that are going unexplained. There is also evidence that this government was willing to let old people die. There is a video of the Prime Minister making light of the dangers of Covid-19 in March.

Every indication shows that around 46,000 more British citizens have lost their lives already during this period then has been the case for the past five years. (The government only acknowledged 27,000 as Covid – they tested positive at a time where there was very little testing at the peak of the pandemic)

The evidence also very strongly suggests that at least half of these are in the vulnerable and elderly age group. We are talking about more than 20,000 elderly British citizens. There does not seem to have been any plan to protect these citizens. There was no PPE for care homes, there was no testing, patients were being released to care homes even after testing positive in hospital or not being tested at all.

By contrast, there have only been 6000 total deaths in Germany. Even if we double this it would be 12,000.

I want you to imagine for a moment that it was an act of Islamic terrorism that caused the death of 46,000 people in the UK. How would you react to that?

I cannot understand how anyone who claims to have any sort of affinity or regard for the British people can simply look the other way on this as you and posters like Aegir and Robmc seem to be doing.

What is the point of Brexit if the most vulnerable in society are so casually cast aside? Isn't Brexit all about putting British people first?

You have a government that at the very least has caused tens of thousands of unnecessary deaths of their citizens through incompetence or negligence and at the worst through malice.

I'm genuinely trying to understand how you are not absolutely furious about this? Is your political allegiance to Boris Johnson and the conservative party really worth that much to you? Is it just about “owning the Libs”? Or is it the case that you cannot dare to comprehend that you supported these people who have created this horrific situation that has led to so much unnecessary loss of British life? Is it just simply a matter of your pride?

What is it you really care about here? What if anything do you really stand for if you don't even stand for the elderly citizens who contributed to building up the UK only to be casually and cruelly discarded by the government that was elected to look after them?

I would appreciate a genuine response rather than deflection or obfuscation.

Do you really think the Labour Party of Jeremy Corbyn and Diane Abbott would have done any better ? ? ?:eek::eek:

Re; Brexit , The Eu came up against the Democracy of the British people and there was only ever going to be one winner there, and that was not the Eu.

As for the Eu giving two fooks about the most vulnerable in society, I suggest you look as an example at the treatment of migrant workers in " The Most Glorious Eu “ with the exception of the Princes and Princess’s of Brussels and Strasbourg ( these migrant workers are looked after Royally )

Turtwig · 01-05-2020 01:02AM

blinding wrote: »

Do you really think the Labour Party of Jeremy Corbyn and Diane Abbott would have done any better ? ? ?:eek::eek:

Re; Brexit , The Eu came up against the Democracy of the British people and there was only ever going to be one winner there, and that was not the Eu.

As for the Eu giving two fooks about the most vulnerable in society, I suggest you look as an example at the treatment of migrant workers in " The Most Glorious Eu “ with the exception of the Princes and Princess’s of Brussels and Strasbourg ( these migrant workers are looked after Royally )

Do you really think the Labour Party of Jeremy Corbyn and Diane Abbott would have done any better ? ? ?:eek::eek:

Whataboutery

Re; Brexit , The Eu came up against the Democracy of the British people and there was only ever going to be one winner there, and that was not the Eu.

Whataboutery

As for the Eu giving two fooks about the most vulnerable in society, I suggest you look as an example at the treatment of migrant workers in " The Most Glorious Eu “ with the exception of the Princes and Princess’s of Brussels and Strasbourg ( these migrant workers are looked after Royally )

Whataboutery

DING DING DING!

AllForIt · 01-05-2020 02:01AM

Enzokk wrote: »

Yeah, and the chief blusterer is back to throw more mud into this whole mess. These tweets seem to sum this all up really,

https://twitter.com/henrymance/status/1255899965395615745?s=20

https://twitter.com/mrjamesob/status/1255902627356966915?s=20

Well since you asked what's wrong with the tweets, I don't see any contradiction in the first one and as for O'Brian, you'd think someone who considers himself to be so astute in regards to what's going on in the world he wouldn't have fallen for 'faux bonhomie' but it any case I don't think it's faux at all. That's his personalty.

BonnieSituation · 01-05-2020 02:36AM

Aegir wrote: »

So why was he there then? What sinister motives do you have for a data mining expert from the worlds biggest technology company being there?

Invited by the chief scientific advisor no less, I bet he is in on whatever nefarious scheme is involved as well.

Obviously, since you're so wrapped up in this one and have the details to hand, why haven't the NI, Scottish and Welsh CMOs not been part of it? Do you think they should be? Is it an oversight?

See, I think that's what the issue is here, it's the fact that people are there "instead of" others; others who one would reasonably assume "should" be there. Naturally, you have picked up the wrong end of the stick and have kept running with it.

AllForIt · 01-05-2020 03:12AM

Memnoch wrote: »

Blinding,

I want to try and understand where posters like yourself and Aegir, with your view, are genuinely coming from. Clearly, you care very strongly about the UK and about British people. I'm guessing that you are very passionate about Brexit.

The don't necessarily have to care about British people to have an opinion.

Let's for a second put aside the idea of teams. This is not a football match where we are trying to score goals against each other. It's not about which side is right or wrong or who is winning. It's not about gloating or looking down on anyone.

If it's not about who's right and who's wrong then I don't know what it about.

I'm simply trying to reach out to you here as one human being who is coming from a genuine place to another and trying to understand where you're coming from.

You don't sound very genuine to me.

I'm trying to understand what you genuinely feel about all the evidence that has been presented, largely in right-wing British outlets like the daily mail, the telegraph, the times and the financial Times showing the scale of needless loss of British life.

All the evidence has not been presented. There are other variable's I'm going to get to later.

By all accounts (even according to the official ONS figures) there are thousands of extra deaths each week that are going unexplained. There is also evidence that this government was willing to let old people die. There is a video of the Prime Minister making light of the dangers of Covid-19 in March.

The extra deaths are due to coronavirus of course?! Negligence isn't really the same as 'willing to let old people die'. I thought old people were their greatest Brexit supporters so why would they shoot themselves in the foot. It seems to me when you consider the criticisms in their entirety they are often contradictory, indicating a tactic that if if you throw enough of them some of them might stick.

Every indication shows that around 46,000 more British citizens have lost their lives already during this period then has been the case for the past five years. (The government only acknowledged 27,000 as Covid – they tested positive at a time where there was very little testing at the peak of the pandemic)

Why don't these amazing journalist's make this point at the briefings? If it is so easy to get the true figures by using simple math then why are the gov trying to downplay figures when they can be so easily caught out.

The evidence also very strongly suggests that at least half of these are in the vulnerable and elderly age group. We are talking about more than 20,000 elderly British citizens. There does not seem to have been any plan to protect these citizens. There was no PPE for care homes, there was no testing, patients were being released to care homes even after testing positive in hospital or not being tested at all.

There has been difficulty is sourcing PPE because every country on the planet want's them at the same time. Because they couldn't get them does not mean there was absolute no plan. You could argue there plan wasn't good enough but you can't say they had no plan.

By contrast, there have only been 6000 total deaths in Germany. Even if we double this it would be 12,000.

Germany does not have a healthcare system comparable to the UK. For starters.

I want you to imagine for a moment that it was an act of Islamic terrorism that caused the death of 46,000 people in the UK. How would you react to that?

I know how left wingers would react to it and that would be shur it was the governments fault not investing enough in deradicalization, taking focus off the terrorists, in exactly the same way you're taking focus off the virus for all the deaths and blaming all the deaths on the government.

I cannot understand how anyone who claims to have any sort of affinity or regard for the British people can simply look the other way on this as you and posters like Aegir and Robmc seem to be doing.

Again I don't think anyone needs to have any affinity for the British to have an opinion.

What is the point of Brexit if the most vulnerable in society are so casually cast aside? Isn't Brexit all about putting British people first?

That's the second time you've suggested not just noting was done but willingly nothing was done. That is quite the accusation. But no matter how many times you say it it doesn't make it true. Not taking your word for it at least.

The UK only left the EU 3 months ago. I don't see being part of the EU did anything to alleviate the effects of a pandemic.

You have a government that at the very least has caused tens of thousands of unnecessary deaths of their citizens through incompetence or negligence and at the worst through malice.

Again, no matter how many times you say it...

I'm genuinely trying to understand how you are not absolutely furious about this? Is your political allegiance to Boris Johnson and the conservative party really worth that much to you? Is it just about “owning the Libs”? Or is it the case that you cannot dare to comprehend that you supported these people who have created this horrific situation that has led to so much unnecessary loss of British life? Is it just simply a matter of your pride?

You don't sound very genuine to me.

Noone need's to be a supporter of the Tories to express an opinion, and just because you don't like that opinion doesn't mean they are wrong.

What is it you really care about here? What if anything do you really stand for if you don't even stand for the elderly citizens who contributed to building up the UK only to be casually and cruelly discarded by the government that was elected to look after them?

Again, no matter how many times you say it...

I have to say I found the whole tone of your post to have a superior attitude to it and you hardly made a single unique point for all the text.

blinding · 01-05-2020 05:52AM

Turtwig wrote: »

Whataboutery

Whataboutery

Whataboutery

DING DING DING!

Whataboutery, Whataboutery, Whataboutery, Well done !

Professor Moriarty · 01-05-2020 08:47AM

AllForIt wrote: »

Germany does not have a healthcare system comparable to the UK. For starters.

Just on this point. It would appear that many years of Tory rule has ensured that is true, From the BBC:

Germany:

Nine out of 10 Germans pay 7% of their pre-tax salary into statutory health insurance, matched by their employers
Pensioners and the short-term unemployed also contribute, children are covered by their parents and the federal government compensates for the rest
The highest earners, civil servants and the self-employed have private insurance but use it to access the same doctors and hospitals
There are more hospital beds, and doctors per patients than in the UK, and you can go directly to see a specialist based in the community
Germans also pay a smaller amount into long-term care insurance, but families have to pay a significant amount for social care

UK

In every part of the UK, the NHS is paid for out of general taxation and the proportion of public money allocated to it is a matter of policy for each of the devolved governments
Patients have direct access to a GP, but have to be referred to see a specialist, who mainly work in hospitals, with the exception of some specialities like psychiatry
There are waiting targets, but for some routine operations patients can face waits of many months
Social care is means tested and access is increasingly restricted to those with the highest level of need. There is no insurance to cover for old age care

VinLieger · 01-05-2020 09:09AM

Turtwig wrote: »

Whataboutery

Whataboutery

Whataboutery

DING DING DING!

Hilarious really that for such a long post they that they still couldnt find one thing to engage with honestly.

Straw men everywhere.

Enzokk · 01-05-2020 09:17AM

AllForIt wrote: »

Well since you asked what's wrong with the tweets, I don't see any contradiction in the first one and as for O'Brian, you'd think someone who considers himself to be so astute in regards to what's going on in the world he wouldn't have fallen for 'faux bonhomie' but it any case I don't think it's faux at all. That's his personalty.

I was asking the poster to point out the tweets where James O'Brien has gotten it wrong. He mentions Brexit and the General Election, but I am waiting to see if he can find tweets where O'Brien actually said Remain would win and Labour would beat the Tories. I know his personality is grating, if you don't agree with his point of view you will find him infuriating, but show me where his point of view was wrong when looking at a situation.

At the same time, who hasn't gotten things or predictions wrong before? So if you show me ten tweets that he got things wrong, does that mean his view should not be looked at? Can we do that with all journalists or commentators? Should we open up our own social media that we can be assessed on our opinions?

As with many things on this thread the reply to me was not to look at the tweet or the substance of it, but to find another point to attack and for us to discuss that instead of what I was tweeting. Here we are talking about James O'Brien instead of the first tweet.

As for the first tweet, it pointed out the differences in messaging. Are you saying they are basically the same message? How about the delivery of them as you cannot see that with a tweet that isn't a video. If you take that into consideration, Johnson the showman compared to Whitty, do you still think the message being given is the same?

Beasty · 01-05-2020 10:04AM

blinding wrote: »

Its getting rid of you ( the Eu ) that is the problem. You are like some sort of Stalker that cannot accept getting dumped ! ! ! :eek::eek:

blinding wrote: »

Whataboutery, Whataboutery, Whataboutery, Well done !

Threadbanned

01-05-2020 10:21AM

Enzokk wrote: »

I don't know why he was there. You seem to know. Maybe release the minutes? Or what other snarky smart reply do you have that doesn't address anything we try to discuss on this thread.

What point were you trying to make? Neither you or the Guardian gave any opinion as to why he was there, it was just another OMG look who else is on SAGE.

I have, what I believe, is a genuine reason. If you would like to debate that (which you obviously don’t, because you haven’t once attempted to) then fire away.

01-05-2020 10:28AM

Enzokk wrote: »

I don't know why he was there. You seem to know. Maybe release the minutes? Or what other snarky smart reply do you have that doesn't address anything we try to discuss on this thread.

What point were you trying to make? Neither you or the Guardian gave any opinion as to why he was there, it was just another OMG look who else is on SAGE.

I have, what I believe, is a genuine reason. If you would like to debate that (which you obviously don’t, because you haven’t once attempted to) then fire away.

Enzokk · 01-05-2020 10:48AM

Aegir wrote: »

What point were you trying to make? Neither you or the Guardian gave any opinion as to why he was there, it was just another OMG look who else is on SAGE.

I have, what I believe, is a genuine reason. If you would like to debate that (which you obviously don’t, because you haven’t once attempted to) then fire away.

Did you hear that sound? It was the point going over your head. You are so transfixed trying to defend the UK Government that you don't see the bigger picture. I am sure someone from the technology sector attending SAGE meetings is entirely appropriate, if people know why he is there. The fact that we don't know why he is there is the problem.

The article isn't about this person, it is about the secrecy of SAGE and their advice being given. You don't know, or if you do you should really not be posting on an Irish discussion thread as you need to be busy with the thousand people dying ever day in the UK. I don't know, but I am not the one attacking people for not knowing what is happening.

bob mcbob · 01-05-2020 10:49AM

blinding wrote: »

Do you really think the Labour Party of Jeremy Corbyn and Diane Abbott would have done any better ? ? ?:eek::eek:

Re; Brexit , The Eu came up against the Democracy of the British people and there was only ever going to be one winner there, and that was not the Eu.

As for the Eu giving two fooks about the most vulnerable in society, I suggest you look as an example at the treatment of migrant workers in " The Most Glorious Eu “ with the exception of the Princes and Princess’s of Brussels and Strasbourg ( these migrant workers are looked after Royally )

Do you know the difference between England and Britain?

If not you can find a few maps online (try Google) which will show it to you.\

bob mcbob · 01-05-2020 10:58AM

Interesting story in the Guardian - reporting that there were 5 Covid deaths (March 2nd & 3rd) before the first death was even reported.

These deaths were in
-Reading
-Manchester
-Nottingham
-Essex
-Buckinhamshire

So covering much of the England. I read somewhere (I think) that deaths roughly come 2 weeks after infection. So even by the middle of Feb, Covig must have been fairly widespread.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/30/five-already-dead-by-time-uk-reported-first-coronavirus-death

01-05-2020 11:04AM

Enzokk wrote: »

Did you hear that sound? It was the point going over your head. You are so transfixed trying to defend the UK Government that you don't see the bigger picture. I am sure someone from the technology sector attending SAGE meetings is entirely appropriate, if people know why he is there. The fact that we don't know why he is there is the problem.

The article isn't about this person, it is about the secrecy of SAGE and their advice being given. You don't know, or if you do you should really not be posting on an Irish discussion thread as you need to be busy with the thousand people dying ever day in the UK. I don't know, but I am not the one attacking people for not knowing what is happening.

So we don’t know why he was there, but we are going to get outraged by it all the same? I have an opinion which I gave, what is yours?

Any evidence on the NHS_Susan debacle yet?

Seth Brundle · 01-05-2020 11:08AM

bob mcbob wrote: »

Interesting story in the Guardian - reporting that there were 5 Covid deaths (March 2nd & 3rd) before the first death was even reported.

Plus it transpires that porkies were told about the deaths at Cheltenham time...

The time lag on reporting the deaths has meant the impact of the virus actually hit much earlier than previously acknowledged. By 13 March, the end of the Cheltenham festival when 68,000 people gathered for the Gold Cup, there had been 51 deaths in English hospitals at a time when only 11 deaths in the UK had been announced.

robinph · 01-05-2020 11:14AM

If the first death was in a care home on 2nd March then that is presumably not from them having just flown back from China, or skiing in Italy, themselves. So it was on the loose in the community and undetected for a good couple of weeks before that. Unlikely to have come directly from China either as people were being quarantined at that point on returning so more likely via a third country such as Italy.

theological · 01-05-2020 11:14AM

bob mcbob wrote: »

Interesting story in the Guardian - reporting that there were 5 Covid deaths (March 2nd & 3rd) before the first death was even reported.

These deaths were in
-Reading
-Manchester
-Nottingham
-Essex
-Buckinhamshire

So covering much of the England. I read somewhere (I think) that deaths roughly come 2 weeks after infection. So even by the middle of Feb, Covig must have been fairly widespread.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/30/five-already-dead-by-time-uk-reported-first-coronavirus-death

Coronavirus has been in the UK since at least late January, possibly slightly before. The first reported cases were reported in January.

Enzokk · 01-05-2020 11:31AM

Aegir wrote: »

So we don’t know why he was there, but we are going to get outraged by it all the same? I have an opinion which I gave, what is yours?

Any evidence on the NHS_Susan debacle yet?

We are not outraged, we are commenting on it because we find it interesting. The people that should be outraged are the people living in the UK. You guys are taking this personal. I don't care if your feelings are hurt if I post links I find interesting. You care and seem to be on a mission of some sort.

I don't know about the NHS_Susan debacle, whoops the person may have gotten it wrong. I think it is on par with the UK letting people congregate in their thousands when they knew the virus was deadly. You know, one story about a fake account is equal to dead people.

theological wrote: »

Coronavirus has been in the UK since at least late January, possibly slightly before. The first reported cases were reported in January.

So any thoughts on the UK not shutting down the Cheltenham festival or football fans from Madrid if the virus was in the UK this early? Did it just sneak up on the UK that they weren't aware of it? Are you still confident they handled this pandemic well? Made the right decisions at the right time? Protected the NHS? Saved lives?

S.M.B. · 01-05-2020 11:36AM

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Plus it transpires that porkies were told about the deaths at Cheltenham time...

Porkies?

This thread really does come across at times as two cohorts with vastly opposing positions/perspectives just trying to provoke each other.

01-05-2020 11:37AM

Memnoch wrote: »

Blinding,

I want to try and understand where posters like yourself and Aegir, with your view, are genuinely coming from. Clearly, you care very strongly about the UK and about British people. I'm guessing that you are very passionate about Brexit.

I do care about Brexit, yes. Probably not in the way your prejudice would lead you to believe though.

Memnoch wrote: »

Let's for a second put aside the idea of teams. This is not a football match where we are trying to score goals against each other. It's not about which side is right or wrong or who is winning. It's not about gloating or looking down on anyone.

yes it is, that is exactly what this thread is about.

I'm simply trying to reach out to you here as one human being who is coming from a genuine place to another and trying to understand where you're coming from.

Memnoch wrote: »

I'm trying to understand what you genuinely feel about all the evidence that has been presented, largely in right-wing British outlets like the daily mail, the telegraph, the times and the financial Times showing the scale of needless loss of British life.

this must be confusing for an Irish poster. The British press and the Irish press are polar opposites when it comes to their respective governments. The British press are constantly looking for things to criticise the government about and generally have an adversarial relationship with MPs.

The Irish press on the other hand have an entirely different relationship. They pull on the green Jersey and declare "Aren't we a great country" and any criticism of the government ends there. The CMO here has been elevated to god like status (and fair enough, he has done a fantastic job) and the rest of the government, in particular Simon Harris (who would have been forced to resign two years ago if he were Health Minister in the UK) are hiding behind him.

Memnoch wrote: »

By all accounts (even according to the official ONS figures) there are thousands of extra deaths each week that are going unexplained. There is also evidence that this government was willing to let old people die. There is a video of the Prime Minister making light of the dangers of Covid-19 in March.

now is not the time to hold an enquiry. We will be discussing this in a years time. That is when the performance of each country needs to be assessed. What is important is that the government is doing everything it can on a day to day basis to address the issues and resolve them.

Memnoch wrote: »

Every indication shows that around 46,000 more British citizens have lost their lives already during this period then has been the case for the past five years. (The government only acknowledged 27,000 as Covid – they tested positive at a time where there was very little testing at the peak of the pandemic)

Evidence seems to suggest that this is the case for every country that has been affected. The true cost of this will become more apparant when it is over. I put it to you, that the reason why people on here are clammering to make the numbers as high as possible is so they can continue to point fingers at the Conservative party, because lets face it, this thread isn't about the "UK" response, it is about the conservative party. If that were not the case, then Nicola Sturgeon missing five COBR meetings, or Conor Murphy's somewhat confusing statements about PPE would be analysed as well. Yet oddly, they are not.

Memnoch wrote: »

The evidence also very strongly suggests that at least half of these are in the vulnerable and elderly age group. We are talking about more than 20,000 elderly British citizens. There does not seem to have been any plan to protect these citizens. There was no PPE for care homes, there was no testing, patients were being released to care homes even after testing positive in hospital or not being tested at all.

a tragic statistic that is mirrored in every country in europe, sadly.

Memnoch wrote: »

By contrast, there have only been 6000 total deaths in Germany. Even if we double this it would be 12,000.

why compare with Germany, why not France. I have said all along I see the UK and France being broadly similar in the way they are affected. Similar size populations, similar demographics, daily flights from WUHAN up to the end of January

Memnoch wrote: »

I want you to imagine for a moment that it was an act of Islamic terrorism that caused the death of 46,000 people in the UK. How would you react to that?

what a stupid question.

Memnoch wrote: »

I cannot understand how anyone who claims to have any sort of affinity or regard for the British people can simply look the other way on this as you and posters like Aegir and Robmc seem to be doing.

pointing out bull**** is not looking the other way, it is pointing out bull****.

Memnoch wrote: »

What is the point of Brexit if the most vulnerable in society are so casually cast aside? Isn't Brexit all about putting British people first?

I don't support Brexit, so I can't answer that.

Memnoch wrote: »

You have a government that at the very least has caused tens of thousands of unnecessary deaths of their citizens through incompetence or negligence and at the worst through malice.

can you provide evidence to support this claim?

Memnoch wrote: »

I'm genuinely trying to understand how you are not absolutely furious about this? Is your political allegiance to Boris Johnson and the conservative party really worth that much to you? Is it just about “owning the Libs”? Or is it the case that you cannot dare to comprehend that you supported these people who have created this horrific situation that has led to so much unnecessary loss of British life? Is it just simply a matter of your pride?

pointing out bull**** is not looking the other way, it is pointing out bull****.

Memnoch wrote: »

What is it you really care about here? What if anything do you really stand for if you don't even stand for the elderly citizens who contributed to building up the UK only to be casually and cruelly discarded by the government that was elected to look after them?

I care about two things. The first is that making sure the government is owning this emergency and is doing all it can to mitigate its effects.I have some concerns about some of the early actions, but I am comfortable that they are doing all they can to address issues in the best way they can.

Why are not on the main thread accusing the Irish government of causing the deaths of hundreds of people through incompetance and malice? Some of the reports coming out from the nursing homes (despite the HSE notorious ability to cover these things up) are really shocking.

For most of the Brits on here, the confusion is why are posters dedication so much time to criticising the Conservative party, yet seem to have little or no opinion on what is happening here. you know, in this country, the one we live in.

bob mcbob · 01-05-2020 11:41AM

robinph wrote: »

If the first death was in a care home on 2nd March then that is presumably not from them having just flown back from China, or skiing in Italy, themselves. So it was on the loose in the community and undetected for a good couple of weeks before that. Unlikely to have come directly from China either as people were being quarantined at that point on returning so more likely via a third country such as Italy.

Yes I think a awful lot of people have been exposed to it and for those that are fit and healthy, the vast majority will have seen it as a cold or flu.

The UK response to Covid-19 [MOD WARNING 1ST POST]

Comments