Garda Checks

Unelected CMO · 25-04-2020 09:21AM

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Curious now, how does the commissioner say we police with consent change the oath I took into "I shall serve"? It's an oath. I took it. Doesn't change with time. I'm not told to keep taking new ones. The commissioner repeating something said back in 1922(?) Doesn't change that nor is it stating we are here to serve. It means we police the people with consent of the people. Which remains true. We do police with consent mostly and again I would point to the multiple posts here demanding stronger Garda intervention. We however can't wait for consent from the person we are seeking to take action against. I would assume you can see how foolish that would be.

So again I ask, do you want us style policing? What's your definition of 'essential travel'? Do you think Gardai should just take the word of all motorists that are stopped?

I am not here to be challenged or questioned by you when I do my job. That may sounds arrogant but it's true. You have gsoc, inspectorate, my own superiors and finally, the courts for that. They can challenge how I operate (zero upheld complaints by the way. 2 bogey ones by people who amazingly, felt aggrieved at being told too follow the same rules as everyone else). Don't you find it strange though that you should be allowed challenge me but I'm not allowed challenge the op?

Your entire post is littered with double standards by the way.

“Just following orders”
Oink oink!

CinemaGuy45 · 25-04-2020 09:55AM

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Oh would you every cop on. Go make ANOTHER complaint. That's your weekly event isn't it?

We have every right to ask you where you are traveling and every right to turn you around if it's not essential. Traveling past multiple shops because the q is shorter elsewhere is not essential. In fact look at the Twitter account and you will see Gardai have turned people around and sent them back.

And again I will point out that by your reasoning there really is no point in the restrictions or Gardai enforcing them when someone can travel as far as they want once they come up with an excuse.

I do take your point regarding the Garda you get, we should abandon discretion entirely and use powers of arrest at all stages. Be more American. That make it better?

Also, my oath is actually to uphold the Constitution and protect the peace by the way. No mention of serving anyone. I'm not a Butler.

I am lucky enough to never have had any dealings with you lot.

I am off to the supermarket I will go to the cheap one which is not as near as the expensive one and that is none of your business.

When will be see you lot enforcing the none essential for those lovely folks in the halting sites?:rolleyes:

Just pick on the easy targets is it?

Effects · 25-04-2020 09:57AM

JustAThought wrote: »

At a 3 lane checkpoint on the way to Naas about 2 weeks ago there were at least ten trailers/mobile homes being towed by boyos in white vans and they - unlike many others - were not being automatically told to turn around.

Technically speaking, they are still well within 2km of their homes.

Wibbs · 25-04-2020 09:58AM

Effects wrote: »

Technically speaking, they are still well within 2km of their homes.

:D

Wibbs · 25-04-2020 10:01AM

PCeeeee wrote: »

I was going to respond to this as I found it to be a disturbing attitude that I hope isn't shared by many Gardai.

But honestly I think I'll just leave it here quoted so everyone can see it.

In my personal dealings with the Gardai down the years a couple were supercilious jobsworth morons, one was a nasty prick(and apparently known for it), but the rest were fine; professional all the way to sound, with a few very kind types in the mix. Then again I don't go into automatic defence or offence mode when engaging with Guards and I'd bet that's a lot of it.

CinemaGuy45 · 25-04-2020 10:05AM

Wibbs wrote: »

In my personal dealings with the Gardai down the years a couple were supercilious jobsworth morons, one was a nasty prick(and apparently known for it), but the rest were fine; professional all the way to sound, with a few very kind types in the mix. Then again I don't go into automatic defence or offence mode when engaging with Guards and I'd bet that's a lot of it.

You know when the UK does something Ireland always seems to follow.

The police in the UK have really being picking on easy targets during all of this.

Wibbs · 25-04-2020 10:34AM

CinemaGuy45 wrote: »

You know when the UK does something Ireland always seems to follow.

The police in the UK have really being picking on easy targets during all of this.

There's quite a difference between the two forces C. Overall I'd much prefer ours.

FVP3 · 25-04-2020 10:56AM

I think that this thread is showing something in the Irish psyche, which is different from other democratic countries. The idea that the Irish police have been over policing this is clearly false; just a few roadblocks, one arrest, most "difficult" groups unpoliced.

1,000 arrests in Spain.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1260855/spain-coronavirus-lockdown-arrests-breaking-laws-police-covid-19-europe

This is good and bad, we will never have a police state for instance. On the other hand a fairly high percentage of people don't think the rules apply to them. I have always thought that some traveller attitudes are just an extreme of some of the Irish attitude to authority, and rules.

bubblypop wrote: »

Look, Gardai cannot tell you what supermarket to do your shopping in.
If a person is travelling 50km to go to a shop, when there are shops closer, then yea, that is probably an unnecessary journey.
Supermarkets in the same town? Or within a few miles of each other?
No, none of their business where you, or anyone does the shopping.

A few miles is more than 2KM, which is slightly above a mile.

Whether or not you think those rules sensible or not, they are the rules, and in most countries you wouldn't just get a ticking off from a police man at a checkpoint.

TheChizler · 25-04-2020 11:06AM

FVP3 wrote: »

A few miles is more than 2KM, which is slightly above a mile.

Which has nothing to do with the price of turnips, as previously painstakingly pointed out.

25-04-2020 11:11AM

FVP3 wrote: »

A few miles is more than 2KM, which is slightly above a mile.

Whether or not you think those rules sensible or not, they are the rules, and in most countries you wouldn't just get a ticking off from a police man at a checkpoint.

2km is the distance you should travel from your home, For Exercise.
It's amazing how many people do not even know what the rules are.

& as regards travellers, they are probably all Irish citizens, we cannot ban Irish citizens from entering Ireland.

Tokyo · 25-04-2020 11:12AM

Unelected CMO wrote: »

“Just following orders”
Oink oink!

Mod: Unelected CMO - thread banned.

25-04-2020 11:13AM

FVP3 wrote: »

I think that this thread is showing something in the Irish psyche, which is different from other democratic countries. The idea that the Irish police have been over policing this is clearly false; just a few roadblocks, one arrest, most "difficult" groups unpoliced.

1,000 arrests in Spain.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1260855/spain-coronavirus-lockdown-arrests-breaking-laws-police-covid-19-europe

This is good and bad, we will never have a police state for instance. On the other hand a fairly high percentage of people don't think the rules apply to them. I have always thought that some traveller attitudes are just an extreme of some of the Irish attitude to authority, and rules.

A few miles is more than 2KM, which is slightly above a mile.

Whether or not you think those rules sensible or not, they are the rules, and in most countries you wouldn't just get a ticking off from a police man at a checkpoint.

My point exactly.

Since I posted, people have posted that the Gardai

A, are not visible enough but
B, it's a police state while
C, not enforcing the rules to the maximum level and being too easy going but
D, simultaneously sticking their noses in where they don't belong and not displaying common sense while being to heavy handed and worst off all,
E, asking people questions at checkpoints but not answering questions.

Gotcha,

PCeeeee · 25-04-2020 11:15AM

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

My point exactly.

Since I posted, people have posted that the Gardai

A, are not visible enough but
B, it's a police state while
C, not enforcing the rules to the maximum level and being too easy going but
D, simultaneously sticking their noses in where they don't belong and not displaying common sense while being to heavy handed and worst off all,
E, asking people questions at checkpoints but not answering questions.

Gotcha,

Yeah, a range of people have a range of different views on things. Can you imagine? Crazy stuff.

25-04-2020 11:19AM

bubblypop wrote: »

2km is the distance you should travel from your home, For Exercise.
It's amazing how many people do not even know what the rules are.

& as regards travellers, they are probably all Irish citizens, we cannot ban Irish citizens from entering Ireland.

Yourself included it seems. You still don't grasp the difference between the law and discretion.

"absolutely necessary; extremely important"

That's the definition of essential. If you can't reach that threshold when traveling to the shop, then you can be turned around. Doesn't matter about the wait, doesn't matter about the choices and it doesn't matter about the price. Bread in shop A meets the needs. Traveling to a specific shop because you need vegan, celiac and so on and they are the only supplier? Essential.

25-04-2020 11:21AM

Any I stopped with were very friendly and asked how I was getting on, etc after I showed my letter. I hope they would come down on anyone like a ton of bricks if they weren’t meant to be out though. The Garda isn’t the issue in that situation.

25-04-2020 11:25AM

PCeeeee wrote: »

Yeah, a range of people have a range of different views on things. Can you imagine? Crazy stuff.

Your input so far to the actual issue has been stellar. So well thought out and insightful.

PCeeeee · 25-04-2020 11:26AM

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Yourself included it seems. You still don't grasp the difference between the law and discretion.

"absolutely necessary; extremely important"

That's the definition of essential. If you can't reach that threshold when traveling to the shop, then you can be turned around. Doesn't matter about the wait, doesn't matter about the choices and it doesn't matter about the price. Bread in shop A meets the needs. Traveling to a specific shop because you need vegan, celiac and so on and they are the only supplier? Essential.

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/cf9b0d-new-public-health-measures-effective-now-to-prevent-further-spread-o/

'there will be a nationwide restriction on travel outside of 2 kilometres from your home, except for the restrictions listed above'

There is no mention on that page of a direction to use the closest possible shop. Can you point me to where that direction is please?

PCeeeee · 25-04-2020 11:35AM

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Your input so far to the actual issue has been stellar. So well thought out and insightful.

The issue at hand is the Garda checks and people's attitude to them. Unsuprising there is a range of views on the nature and operation of the checks.

In my view anyone performing these checks should be cognisant of that range of views. A barely concealed irritation that this diversity of views exist among their fellow citizens is unlikley to help said individual in the course of their duties.

In fairness my post was sarcastic in nature so I apologise but honestly the tone of your posts is most frustrating. It is so disappointing that individuals who express the views held in your posts are in policing roles.

25-04-2020 11:36AM

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Yourself included it seems. You still don't grasp the difference between the law and discretion.

"absolutely necessary; extremely important"

That's the definition of essential. If you can't reach that threshold when traveling to the shop, then you can be turned around. Doesn't matter about the wait, doesn't matter about the choices and it doesn't matter about the price. Bread in shop A meets the needs. Traveling to a specific shop because you need vegan, celiac and so on and they are the only supplier? Essential.

I'm well aware of the law & discretion thanks.

3 supermarkets in one town, Gardai cannot dictate which one I go to.
I would expect that any guard would use their discretion in such cases.
Really don't know why you are arguing this one. Plenty more important things you could argue.

25-04-2020 11:39AM

PCeeeee wrote: »

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/cf9b0d-new-public-health-measures-effective-now-to-prevent-further-spread-o/

'there will be a nationwide restriction on travel outside of 2 kilometres from your home, except for the restrictions listed above'

There is no mention on that page of a direction to use the closest possible shop. Can you point me to where that direction is please?

I redirect you to the term 'essential' and also the actual act.

Not all avenues are specifically covered in each act. And again as I said already, you are stating that a person can travel from Dublin to Donegal to shop because Gardai can't dictate what shop. You are attempting a loop hole. Such loop hole can only be closed by a judge in a decision but I would be confident that the judge would agree with me for that reason.

If you accept that position then the whole thing becomes pointless because people can just Tavel at will provided they will be calling into a shop or their parents or doctor or work at some point. The fact that people are being turned around and some have been arrested, I would suggest shows that's not the case.

Edgware · 25-04-2020 11:43AM

I don't think its Garda policy that you use the nearerst supermarket. The 2km refers to exercise. I have no intention of giving my custom to British owned Tesco when I can give it to Irish owned Super Valu stores. That doesnt mean that I can travel 50 miles to a particular Supervalu while passing several on the way. I cant see that getting past a Judge as essential travel.

25-04-2020 11:44AM

bubblypop wrote: »

I'm well aware of the law & discretion thanks.

3 supermarkets in one town, Gardai cannot dictate which one I go to.
I would expect that any guard would use their discretion in such cases.
Really don't know why you are arguing this one. Plenty more important things you could argue.

You so obviously don't.

If the Gardai cannot dictate the shop then they CAN'T use discretion. It doesn't come into play.

Discretion can only be applied when your are deciding how to deal with a breach of the law. Your claim is that no breach occurred and then no discretion possible.

I would agree that you can choose between reasonable equal destinations but again, I'm not the one suggesting no power exists.

You are going from one to the other on this. Either there's limits and Gardai using discretion or there's no limits. Make up your mind which it is

PCeeeee · 25-04-2020 11:47AM

'you are stating that a person can travel from Dublin to Donegal to shop because Gardai can't dictate what shop'

I most certainly am not. I am pointing out that a limit has not been put on distance one can travel to shop for essential items.

'I would be confident that the judge would agree with me for that reason'

I would be abolutely confident that a judge would agree with you that travel from Donegal to Dublin to shop is non essential. Again, that is your strawman and not a position I am taking.

There is a large element of discretion involved in policing the new rules as it is almost impossible to draft legislation to cover every situation. It, for now relies on a bit of common sense from both the public and the Gardai. I agree with you that their has to be some limit as the piss would certainly be taken otherwise. But frankly you're taking a view of the opposite extreme which (IMO) was not the intention of the legislators either.

25-04-2020 11:50AM

Edgware wrote: »

I don't think its Garda policy that you use the nearerst supermarket. The 2km refers to exercise. I have no intention of giving my custom to British owned Tesco when I can give it to Irish owned Super Valu stores

There's no policy and it's nothing to do with the 2km limit. Not everyone lives that close to a shop.

It's about the distance between the nearest reasonable location and the one you chose being 'essential'.

Choosing Irish may be Noble, but it's not based on an essential need. However, that's where discretion comes into play. Choosing Irish at 4km compared to British at 3km the Gardai can wave you on and not turn you around. The difference is 50km then the Gardai can turn you around. Discretion and common sense applies. Judges won't like to see Gardai showing no flexibility and understanding even though the pet to turn you around on both occasions legally existed.

Tenzor07 · 25-04-2020 11:50AM

bubblypop wrote: »

3 supermarkets in one town, Gardai cannot dictate which one I go to.
I would expect that any guard would use their discretion in such cases.
Really don't know why you are arguing this one. Plenty more important things you could argue.

I've no issue with following the direction of the Gardai, but telling you which Shops or which direction to go in?
That's the part i'd have issue with...
......seeing as there's almost no community Gards in Dublin, and from one end of the year to the other the only time I see a Gard around here is if there's a shooting, they won't come up for joyriders in cars or motorbikes,minor thefts or burglaries, late night house parties/anti-social behavior, no general patrols or wider community engagement by the force... none of them live in the local communities they "serve" either.

The wider issue with the Gards is they're not a part of the community and are very much outsiders that lately we only see when we're trying to go out to the shops, so i'm sure everyone understands why engagements with members at checkpoints isn't always positive or welcome.

25-04-2020 11:52AM

The Gardai aren’t the problem in that situation as the person should know better anyway. Anyone using shopping as an excuse to drive 50+km unless they need to is vermin. As people we should be better than this.

Mortelaro · 25-04-2020 11:54AM

Please don't be disrespectful of Gardai
You'd know all about it if they didn't exist

eeepaulo · 25-04-2020 11:55AM

I have 4 supermarkets that are in a town, 7 minute drive away. I have a click and collect that is about 20. I go to the click and collect once every 2 weeks. That's it, that's the sum of my movement at the moment.

Am i likely to be fined for this? My argument would be 20 minute drive with no need to go near anyone, 5 minutes to pack the boot vs 7 minute drive and 20-30 minutes doing my shop, plus queuing time.

Supercell · 25-04-2020 11:56AM

On the whole 2km restriction thing, the 2km limit according to the government guide lines is for exercise and non essential travel.
However, it does say this doesnt apply to essential services (such as supermarkets) and here is where the discretion needs to come in - if I choose to shop in the nearest Lidl or Aidl because it saves me hundreds on the weekly shop over Tesco or Dunnes then shouldn't I have that choice? Assuming its not taking the proverbial piss and travelling to Donegal or Kerry from Dublin and claiming this.
I do think the Gardai need to appreciate that price does matters to families doing their weekly shop now probably more than ever. Whats people thoughts on this?

Mortelaro · 25-04-2020 11:59AM

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

You so obviously don't.

If the Gardai cannot dictate the shop then they CAN'T use discretion. It doesn't come into play.

Discretion can only be applied when your are deciding how to deal with a breach of the law. Your claim is that no breach occurred and then no discretion possible.

I would agree that you can choose between reasonable equal destinations but again, I'm not the one suggesting no power exists.

You are going from one to the other on this. Either there's limits and Gardai using discretion or there's no limits. Make up your mind which it is

Gardai do not have the authority to tell you which shop to do your essential shopping in if its within the same town
If you are driving into another town, you can and should be sent home
Ditto for taking the dart from blackrock into city centre etc
Doing things like that is taking the p1ss

Garda Checks

Comments