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The UK response to Covid-19 [MOD WARNING 1ST POST]

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Comments

  • #3902
    S.M.B.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,383 ✭✭✭S.M.B.


    devnull wrote: »
    Do you have any full screenshots of such tweets from twitter? I would like to see them and since you have done hopefully you can point me in the right direction since I wasn't aware of any tweets aimed at right wingers.

    I've seen people actually saying these things but I've never seen any actual proof that this is the case. The one I have seen doesn't look like twitter since the layout is completely different which makes me doubt it's authenticity since it could have been knocked up in photoshop.
    I don't and in fairness one of them is from this article. Even if I did see screenshots it's probably best to question them. Another reason why I'm awaiting the full presentation of the claim.

    Sorry, I edited my post too as it's her profile that is what I remembered seeing and not a tweet.

    "Deaf NHS Junior Doctor, transitioning in 2020, fighting COVID on behalf of all LGBT & non-binary people, fighting to #bantheclap for nhs workers #fbpe"


  • #3903
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,853 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    devnull wrote: »
    Perhaps read the post that you quoted?

    I'll reproduce it below:

    So your outrage is that someone on Twitter lifted a photo off of the Unison site?


  • #3904
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 11,912 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    So let me get this right.

    First you claim:
    S.M.B. wrote: »
    from the few actual tweets by @nhs_susan that I saw they seem to be all over the place, some appearing to be 'backing the government', others seem to be a poor attempt at humour while the one highlighted in the original thread last night actually seems like a liberal caricature designed to provoke those on the right.

    Then when I challenge you
    Do you have any full screenshots of such tweets from twitter? I would like to see them and since you have done hopefully you can point me in the right direction since I wasn't aware of any tweets aimed at right wingers.

    You suddenly are unable to produce anything to back it up
    I don't and in fairness one of them is from this article. Even if I did see screenshots it's probably best to question them. Another reason why I'm awaiting the full presentation of the claim.

    Pretty Disingenuous I think with a capital D.


  • #3905
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,705 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    Cupatae wrote: »
    hmmm, i dont think you quite understand what was said, and have now resorted to using adolescent emojis...

    If the economy stays shut, how do the hospitals get funding? if the hospitals dont have funding what happens?

    No the economy should be restarted and restrictions should be eased, we have no vaccine for the virus and cant stay on lockdown for the next 2 years....we must just learn to live with it guys!

    The government will print money and / or borrow money to fund the NHS and other essential state services for a period. Probably for quite a long period too - way longer than the media would have you assume.

    The economy vs lockdown shouting permeating right wing media is asinine. We will have multiple periods of lockdown until a vaccine is rolled out. Humans are highly adaptable and have already gone through weeks in different nations with 85 - 90% compliance rates. There are no other options anyway. Pundits waffling on about "herd immunity" for a virus we know so little about that has infected so few is nonsense.

    What we do know is this is a highly infectious disease and causes various degrees of severe disease in up to one in five of every person it infects. We know it has the potential to place a demand on acute hospital care that outstrips supply in most nations in the developed world (forget about poorer regions). We also are proving that staying at home throttles the infection rate and eases the strain on health services.

    We don't yet know exact mortality rates. Precise risk factors for more severe disease. Long term complications for those who become severely ill and recover. We don't know if having had it grants you immunity. Or for how long. We don't have an effective treatment yet for the critically ill. And we have no vaccine.

    You can restart your economy when:

    - you have throttled community transmission down towards zero
    - you have emptied your ICUs of covid 19 patients and can see capacity return to your health system
    - have ramped up your testing capability
    - have eliminated any testing backlog
    - have put in place extensive contact tracing capability
    - have put in place robust quarantine measures for those who will become infected and close contacts of same
    - have published public health criteria for people to follow when in public spaces after the first phase of lockdown is concluded
    - have published thresholds and criteria for resuming different types of economic activities
    - have published thresholds and criteria for suspending different types of economic activities
    - have published thresholds and criteria for resuming lockdown when the second wave of infections gets loose in the community

    The U.K. is very far off so much of that. So lockdown will be continuing for a while yet. Otherwise politicians / civil servants reopening the economy will be consigning themselves to spending some portion of their later years in prison, and they know it.


  • #3906
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 11,912 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    S.M.B. wrote: »
    Sorry, I edited my post too as it's her profile that is what I remembered seeing and not a tweet.

    "Deaf NHS Junior Doctor, transitioning in 2020, fighting COVID on behalf of all LGBT & non-binary people, fighting to #bantheclap for nhs workers #fbpe"

    So a moment ago you said that you
    To be honest, from the few actual tweets by @nhs_susan that I saw they seem to be all over the place, some appearing to be 'backing the government', others seem to be a poor attempt at humour while the one highlighted in the original thread last night actually seems like a liberal caricature designed to provoke those on the right.

    Now, after I asked you to back your claims up by showing proof of the kind of tweets that you were talking about which you claimed existed, you admit that you didn't see them after all and you only saw her profile.

    I appreciate your honesty, but it's still disingenuous with a capital D.


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  • #3907
    Enzokk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,060 ✭✭✭Enzokk


    I am honestly lost for words on this,

    https://twitter.com/nick_gutteridge/status/1252619849228079104?s=20

    The choice not to join the EU procurement scheme was a political decision.


  • #3908
    Dave0301
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,790 ✭✭✭Dave0301


    Enzokk wrote: »
    I am honestly lost for words on this,

    https://twitter.com/nick_gutteridge/status/1252619849228079104?s=20

    The choice not to join the EU procurement scheme was a political decision.

    Hancock is getting grilled on it now in the daily briefing.

    He is saying it wasn't a political decision!


  • #3909
    Joe_ Public
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,023 ✭✭✭✭Joe_ Public


    Hancock floundering on the ppe procurement question here. What does it matter what has or hasnt been delivered, thats not the question.


  • #3910
    Cupatae
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,915 ✭✭✭Cupatae


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    The government will print money and / or borrow money to fund the NHS and other essential state services for a period. Probably for quite a long period too - way longer than the media would have you assume.

    The economy vs lockdown shouting permeating right wing media is asinine. We will have multiple periods of lockdown until a vaccine is rolled out. Humans are highly adaptable and have already gone through weeks in different nations with 85 - 90% compliance rates. There are no other options anyway. Pundits waffling on about "herd immunity" for a virus we know so little about that has infected so few is nonsense.

    What we do know is this is a highly infectious disease and causes various degrees of severe disease in up to one in five of every person it infects. We know it has the potential to place a demand on acute hospital care that outstrips supply in most nations in the developed world (forget about poorer regions). We also are proving that staying at home throttles the infection rate and eases the strain on health services.

    We don't yet know exact mortality rates. Precise risk factors for more severe disease. Long term complications for those who become severely ill and recover. We don't know if having had it grants you immunity. Or for how long. We don't have an effective treatment yet for the critically ill. And we have no vaccine.

    You can restart your economy when:

    - you have throttled community transmission down towards zero
    - you have emptied your ICUs of covid 19 patients and can see capacity return to your health system
    - have ramped up your testing capability
    - have eliminated any testing backlog
    - have put in place extensive contact tracing capability
    - have put in place robust quarantine measures for those who will become infected and close contacts of same
    - have published public health criteria for people to follow when in public spaces after the first phase of lockdown is concluded
    - have published thresholds and criteria for resuming different types of economic activities
    - have published thresholds and criteria for suspending different types of economic activities
    - have published thresholds and criteria for resuming lockdown when the second wave of infections gets loose in the community

    The U.K. is very far off so much of that. So lockdown will be continuing for a while yet. Otherwise politicians / civil servants reopening the economy will be consigning themselves to spending some portion of their later years in prison, and they know it.

    If this is the Criteria for Economies starting back up id imagine, countries like the US, will remain in lock down for a long long time to come.

    -How long do you think the lockdowns in Ireland and Uk will go on for ?
    -What will be the impact of just printing money for extended periods of time?


  • #3911
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 11,912 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    theological wrote: »
    Yesterday you claimed that it was government propaganda.

    Then you implied that it could have been someone working for the government here.

    I'm directing it at you because I'm asking you to back up your claims.

    And once again you avoided answering my questions. I'm all for a honest and constructive debate but time and time again you avoid answering a question at hand by following up with another question about something else or deflection.

    I said that it comes across as pro government propaganda and appeared to be towing the government line. Are you seriously saying that the below is not pro government propaganda and is actually anti government propaganda?

    EWFCRLGVAAgoZPz?format=png&name=small

    Since when did anti-government propaganda involve defending the government. Is it some kind of reverse psychology effect that they are going for? The biggest fact of the matter that somebody chose to impersonate an NHS staff member and use their photo as an aid to spread a pro government message.

    I'm all for having a robust and constructive discussion but going back through my posts to try and find something to bring up to avoid answering difficult questions in the quoted post makes it very hard to do so and smacks of evasion which you have continually been doing throughout this thread, so I'm no longer going to engage with you.


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  • #3912
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 11,912 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Enzokk wrote: »
    I am honestly lost for words on this,

    https://twitter.com/nick_gutteridge/status/1252619849228079104?s=20

    The choice not to join the EU procurement scheme was a political decision.

    Is this in relation to ventilators and other equipment?

    If so, didn't they deny that was the case in the past and say it was because of missing some email?


  • #3913
    Joe_ Public
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,023 ✭✭✭✭Joe_ Public


    Hancock is saying he gave the go ahead to join the procurement scheme so seems to entirely at odds with the evidence given to the foreign affairs committee.


  • #3914
    theological
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,831 ✭✭✭theological


    Some positive news. It looks like testing capacity is at 40,000 now even if the uptake is lower than this. Matt Hancock repeated that the aim is to get 100,000 by the end of the month.

    On the EU PPE scheme Matt Hancock has said that there have been no deliveries yet on the scheme so the UK has not missed out.

    There are also lots of slides on The Guardian live feed from the briefing.

    Public transport is naturally down.

    Reported cases are flatlining.

    Hospital beds seem to be flatlining.

    Other data in the images:

    Gap between all weekly deaths and hospital deaths.

    Global death comparison.

    EDIT: Image links didn't work. I added a link to the live feed.


  • #3915
    Enzokk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,060 ✭✭✭Enzokk


    Dave0301 wrote: »
    Hancock is getting grilled on it now in the daily briefing.

    He is saying it wasn't a political decision!


    Ah, don't worry, the FCO top mandarin has made mistake. You can obviously see it was a slip of the tongue and he will write a letter to clarify that it wasn't a political decision.

    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1252637396497248257?s=20


  • #3916
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 11,912 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Joe_ Public wrote: »
    Hancock is saying he gave the go ahead to join the procurement scheme so seems to entirely at odds with the evidence given to the foreign affairs committee.

    Hancock said that "As far as I'm aware there was no political decision not to participate in that scheme."

    Wasn't a flat out refusal, which is interesting in itself, reminds me of Cameron at the Leveson enquiry.

    Personally I don't see why he didn't say straight that there wasn't a political decision, unless he either doesn't know for sure what is going on in his department or he's worried about what a straight yes/no answer might come back to haunt him later...


  • #3917
    dfx-
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,772 Mod ✭✭✭✭dfx-


    Dave0301 wrote: »
    Hancock is getting grilled on it now in the daily briefing.

    He is saying it wasn't a political decision!

    It was interesting that he very carefully did not go beyond what he did and the decision process he was involved in. It smells very strongly of covering himself in future.

    Von Tam is a poor representative of "the science", he really is prepared to give nothing and casts caveats on the graphs shown. Considering his bravado at pulling up Peston on an answer, he is very non-committal behind the lectern.


  • #3918
    Joe_ Public
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,023 ✭✭✭✭Joe_ Public


    devnull wrote: »
    Hancock said that "As far as I'm aware there was no political decision not to participate in that scheme."

    Wasn't a flat out refusal, which is interesting in itself, reminds me of Cameron at the Leveson enquiry.

    Will have to look back later, i thought he said more than that to pippa crear but not sure.

    Pretty sure he said eu hadnt procured any ppe at all, but that wouldn't seem to include the 1.3 billion worth described in this article:

    https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/therese-coffey-lbc-radio-eu-ppe-procurement-scheme-1-6606962


  • #3919
    Enzokk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,060 ✭✭✭Enzokk


    Joe_ Public wrote: »
    Hancock is saying he gave the go ahead to join the procurement scheme so seems to entirely at odds with the evidence given to the foreign affairs committee.


    I thought he meant that when it came across his desk he gave the go ahead for the scheme. I don't think he specified what date it came to his desk at all. But it doesn't matter, he will write a letter to say that the decision wasn't political at all.

    What a freaking mess!


  • #3920
    Dave0301
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,790 ✭✭✭Dave0301


    theological wrote: »

    Global death comparison.

    EDIT: Image links didn't work. I added a link to the live feed.

    Just on this, maybe I am reading it wrong, but does that graph suggest that UK (all settings) has about 12k deaths?

    That can be on top of UK (hospitals only) surely?


  • #3921
    theological
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,831 ✭✭✭theological


    Twitter have said there is no evidence of bots impersonating NHS over coronavirus. This article makes specific reference to the case that has been discussed at length here.

    Edit:
    devnull wrote: »
    And once again you avoided answering my questions. I'm all for a honest and constructive debate but time and time again you avoid answering a question at hand by following up with another question about something else or deflection.

    I said that it comes across as pro government propaganda and appeared to be towing the government line. Are you seriously saying that the below is not pro government propaganda and is actually anti government propaganda?



    Since when did anti-government propaganda involve defending the government. Is it some kind of reverse psychology effect that they are going for? The biggest fact of the matter that somebody chose to impersonate an NHS staff member and use their photo as an aid to spread a pro government message.

    I'm all for having a robust and constructive discussion but going back through my posts to try and find something to bring up to avoid answering difficult questions in the quoted post makes it very hard to do so and smacks of evasion which you have continually been doing throughout this thread, so I'm no longer going to engage with you.

    I'm not going to prove that a speculative claim isn't true. That's the job of the person making the claim that is speculative.

    You said the account was "government propaganda" which would imply that it was produced by the government.


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  • #3922
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,705 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    Cupatae wrote: »
    If this is the Criteria for Economies starting back up id imagine, countries like the US, will remain in lock down for a long long time to come.

    -How long do you think the lockdowns in Ireland and Uk will go on for ?
    -What will be the impact of just printing money for extended periods of time?

    It should be the criteria for economies starting back up. If you want the South Korea model, that is what it entails. It is also what Germany and Denmark have largely achieved ahead of tentative easing of restrictions.

    - I think Ireland's lockdown will go on to some time in the middle of May, at which point we will see a phased easing of restrictions. The UK are highly unlikely to be in the same position until 3 - 6 weeks after we start easing restrictions

    - inflation. We can debate the extent but we have gone through a historic period of low inflation / interest rates. That is going to change to some extent after covid 19

    Don't get me wrong. I understand the frustration you seemingly feel and express here. We all do. But it isn't as simple as just ending lockdown to "save" the economy if it involves criminal negligence and knowingly exposing the populace to an unknown virus and consequentially tens of thousands of deaths (at least).


  • #3923
    Dave0301
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,790 ✭✭✭Dave0301


    Enzokk wrote: »
    Ah, don't worry, the FCO top mandarin has made mistake. You can obviously see it was a slip of the tongue and he will write a letter to clarify that it wasn't a political decision.

    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1252637396497248257?s=20

    Just actually watched the clip...It is fairly obvious what Sir Simon makes of that "political decision!"


  • #3924
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 11,912 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Joe_ Public wrote: »
    Will have to look back later, i thought he said more than that to pippa crear but not sure.

    Pretty sure he said eu hadnt procured any ppe at all, but that wouldn't seem to include the 1.3 billion worth described in this article:

    https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/therese-coffey-lbc-radio-eu-ppe-procurement-scheme-1-6606962

    BBC tweet here backs up what I thought I heard.
    https://twitter.com/BBCNews/status/1252635625108504578


  • #3925
    Joe_ Public
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,023 ✭✭✭✭Joe_ Public


    devnull wrote: »
    BBC tweet here backs up what I thought I heard.
    https://twitter.com/BBCNews/status/1252635625108504578

    Yeah, but when Pippa Crear brought it up again later he said more, basically what enzo is saying above. He was a bit rattled at that point.


  • #3926
    Enzokk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,060 ✭✭✭Enzokk


    Dave0301 wrote: »
    Just actually watched the clip...It is fairly obvious what Sir Simon makes of that "political decision!"


    The look away when answering and the repeat of No.10 answer that they had left the EU already by that stage. But as long as he writes his letter to contradict what he said and his body language when he said it, that should satisfy the mob that no damage was done and the decision to not join a scheme that would have helped them buying more equipment was a good idea.


  • #3927
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,853 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Joe_ Public wrote: »
    Will have to look back later, i thought he said more than that to pippa crear but not sure.

    Pretty sure he said eu hadnt procured any ppe at all, but that wouldn't seem to include the 1.3 billion worth described in this article:

    https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/therese-coffey-lbc-radio-eu-ppe-procurement-scheme-1-6606962

    Has any been delivered? I think that might be the point.

    It would be interesting to hear who else decided against joining the scheme and why.


  • #3928
    Joe_ Public
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,023 ✭✭✭✭Joe_ Public


    Aegir wrote: »
    Has any been delivered? I think that might be the point.

    It would be interesting to hear who else decided against joining the scheme and why.

    Is it too much to ask if the uk decided not to join to give a straight answer why? Why all the faffing around if it was a good decision?


  • #3929
    PommieBast
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,931 ✭✭✭PommieBast


    Joe_ Public wrote: »
    As it is, the ons depend on checking death certificates and there are questions about some doctors being reluctant to record a death as covid-19 if a test hadnt been done. And that is why some think many deaths will never be officially reported.
    From what I've been told for deaths in care homes the certificate can be signed by a nurse rather than a doctor, and some have simply written down whatever the preexisting conditions were.


  • #3930
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,853 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Joe_ Public wrote: »
    Is it too much to ask if the uk decided not to join to give a straight answer why? Why all the faffing around if it was a good decision?

    A straight answer would be good. But I would imagine whatever the reason given will not be accepted on here.

    Personally, I can’t see the value in a joint strategic exercise like this. Great if you are looking long term, but this is a relatively short term tactical requirement.


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  • #3931
    Enzokk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,060 ✭✭✭Enzokk


    Aegir wrote: »
    Has any been delivered? I think that might be the point.

    It would be interesting to hear who else decided against joining the scheme and why.


    As we have seen with the UK trying to procure PPE from Turkey, these things take time and it is an unprecedented scenario where all countries are looking for PPE. So the fact it takes time should be understandable seeing as you cannot just announce on a Saturday that you will receive a bunch of items the next day.

    Can we be sure the UK hasn't been competing with the EU to buy PPE?

    As for Hancock's answer to Pippa Crear following this up, it seems like the scheme that isn't worth joining because it hasn't delivered anything, well the UK has joined this scheme. Now why would they do that?

    Or did he want to join but his decision was overruled, seeing that this comes as a surprise to almost everyone that the UK has joined the scheme. Can someone who is from the UK tell me what is happening with this?


This discussion has been closed.
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