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Relaxation of restrictions

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Comments

  • #8312
    road_high
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,887 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    ceadaoin. wrote: »
    And that's an indefinite payment is it? Where is the money going to keep coming from if no one is working?

    That’s the question no one is focused on. It’s all being borrowed at the moment. The problem is of course paying it back with interest on top of our national debt.


  • #8313
    timmy_mallet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,165 ✭✭✭timmy_mallet


    gnf_ireland wrote: »
    I am not sure where you got the numbers from. Most schools would average around 20 students per teacher including principals. The student teacher ratio is 26 if I remember correctly. Our school has around 12 teachers (excl principal) for around 340 pupils.

    The sensible way to approach this is to divide each class into say 3 or 4 groups, and bring them in one day a week each (teacher in 3-4 days), and spend the other day correcting homework and setting the plans for the children's work for the remaining days where they continue some level of home schooling.

    That would mean around 8 children or so per class, so social distancing is much more possible, within the yard and classroom settings. And those requiring additional supports can continue to receive them.

    Does it solve issues across the board - absolutely not, but it does allow a level of social interaction for children in a controlled manner, and if parents don't feel comfortable with it (for example they wish to engage closer with their own parents), then they don't have to send them in. But not everyone has Mammy and Daddy around the corner.

    We all need to remember we are social animals and need a level of interaction. Children have effectively been locked up for the last month - and many don't understand what is going on. There is a reason solitary confinement is a punishment in most penal systems !

    Who would hone school them if their parent(s) are working?


  • #8314
    easypazz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,346 ✭✭✭easypazz


    road_high wrote: »
    That’s the question no one is focused on. It’s all being borrowed at the moment. The problem is of course paying it back with interest on top of our national debt.

    All the realists are focused on it.

    The lockdown brigade bury their head in the sand when it is mentioned.


  • #8315
    Hearty80
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 122 ✭✭Hearty80


    Why cant the schools open and still keep children away from grandparents and elderly neighbours/friends. If UK schools reopen then its actually ridiculous for our schools to remain closed. Nursing homes are the major problem not schools or creches. Not a regular poster here but sounds like everyone just agrees with each other. Everything will be open soon then ye will have to come out of the bunkers.


  • #8316
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,394 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    gnf_ireland wrote: »
    ratio is 26/1 when principals are included, of which many are non-teaching. Most classes in big schools have ~30 per class

    Not every student is 5 years old ! The very youngest of a 13-14 year cycle are.

    The average class size is 24. 30 is an outlier. Regardless, couldn't a class that accommodates 30 easily accommodate 15 socially distanced kids?


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  • #8317
    Cork Boy 53
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,829 ✭✭✭Cork Boy 53


    Hearty80 wrote: »
    Why cant the schools open and still keep children away from grandparents and elderly neighbours/friends. If UK schools reopen then its actually ridiculous for our schools to remain closed. Nursing homes are the major problem not schools or creches. Not a regular poster here but sounds like everyone just agrees with each other. Everything will be open soon then ye will have to come out of the bunkers.

    In what way is that ridiculous? Are you suggesting that just because the UK might do something Ireland has to do the same?


  • #8318
    KerryConnor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 149 ✭✭KerryConnor


    You're suggesting you could have half students in the school groups of 8/9. There wouldn't be enough classrooms, there's only one classroom per class group. And then small office size rooms. So you could only have a third or a quatre of the kids in at a time if you stick to those size groups.

    Would be great for the kids to have small classes for a year, they'd get a lot out of it. But they'd need to have lots extra classrooms. Maybe prefabs will be the answer in some schools. Then where would you get the teachers. If you go down to those ratios you're cancelling all SEN. In Denmark each class seems to already have teaching assistant (and lower numbers) which seems to be how they adjusted so quickly
    Professor Moriarty wrote: »
    Not getting your logic. Special needs aside and taking a 16/1 ratio, there are 16 kids are typically in a classroom. If that number is reduced to 8, what's the problem?


  • #8319
    gnf_ireland
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 431 ✭✭gnf_ireland


    timmy_mallet wrote: »
    Who would hone school them if their parent(s) are working?

    Who is saying parents will be able to return to work in that situation? 1 day a week does not allow anyone return to work. I was talking to our CEO during the week and he said it was likely it could be 6 months (or longer) before a normal working pattern is reintroduced - whatever the new normal will be.

    And the answer is the same people who home school them before the easter holidays while trying to balance that with the full time jobs they already had.

    There are people working from home at the moment who are expected to get a full days normal workload done while this crises is ongoing (and are thankfully getting paid for it as well). Their only options are to start very early, finish very late and try keep all balls in the air in terms of work and children. Very few are getting paid (outside of the 350 euro a week) and not doing a normal days workload


  • #8320
    Ellsbells1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33 ✭Ellsbells1


    I understand the need for kids to go back to school my own are really missing school and friends however who will mind children on the alternative days that children are not in school and their parents are in work? How can social distancing work in crèches?


  • #8321
    FishOnABike
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,879 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    Professor Moriarty wrote: »
    Not getting your logic. Special needs aside and taking a 16/1 ratio, there are 16 kids are typically in a classroom. If that number is reduced to 8, what's the problem?

    That's the problem. Ratio is closer to double that.


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  • #8322
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,394 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    KerryConnor wrote: »
    You're suggesting you could have half students in the school groups of 8/9. There wouldn't be enough classrooms, there's only one classroom per class group. And then small office size rooms. So you could only have a third or a quatre of the kids in at a time if you stick to those size groups.

    A room can accommodate 6 kids or a room can accommodate 60 kids. If you halve those numbers you greatly increase the space between the kids.


  • #8323
    khalessi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,216 ✭✭✭khalessi


    Ray Donovan wrote: »
    1 day a week for primary schools is the most creative solution they came up with??

    I really really hope this is the beginning of plan, not the plan!!

    In my school there are 120 approximately in each year group. Over 900 kids in the school

    These would need to be split into groups of 6 for proper social distancing in classroom and then a teacher and an SNA.

    Will extra buildings be coopted like for hospitals and in Danish models we saw lovely photos of?

    Will PPE be provided for teachers?

    Will social distancing be left to schools to sort out while government claim a success? Yup


  • #8324
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,394 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    FishOnABike wrote: »
    That's the problem. Ratio is closer to double that.

    The average is 24/1. But that's not the point though.


  • #8325
    bazermc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,116 ✭✭✭bazermc


    Ellsbells1 wrote: »
    I understand the need for kids to go back to school my own are really missing school and friends however who will mind children on the alternative days that children are not in school and their parents are in work? How can social distancing work in crèches?

    They same way as we (parents) are doing it at the moment with schools completely closed.


  • #8326
    gnf_ireland
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 431 ✭✭gnf_ireland


    Professor Moriarty wrote: »
    The average class size is 24. 30 is an outlier. Regardless, couldn't a class that accommodates 30 easily accommodate 15 socially distanced kids?

    https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/irish-primary-schools-bottom-of-the-class-for-class-sizes-and-funding-in-europe-949949.html

    Average looks to be 25 based on this quick search. In the area I am in (high demand area), and I asked all schools this question most have between 28 and 33 per class, averaging 30. The absolute cutoff was 33.

    My youngest has 26 in a mixed grade class and eldest has 32 in a single grade class


  • #8327
    Ellsbells1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33 ✭Ellsbells1


    gnf_ireland wrote: »
    Who is saying parents will be able to return to work in that situation? 1 day a week does not allow anyone return to work. I was talking to our CEO during the week and he said it was likely it could be 6 months (or longer) before a normal working pattern is reintroduced - whatever the new normal will be.

    And the answer is the same people who home school them before the easter holidays while trying to balance that with the full time jobs they already had.

    There are people working from home at the moment who are expected to get a full days normal workload done while this crises is ongoing (and are thankfully getting paid for it as well). Their only options are to start very early, finish very late and try keep all balls in the air in terms of work and children. Very few are getting paid (outside of the 350 euro a week) and not doing a normal days workload

    My kids teachers both have kids themselves so who will mind their kids for them and both their partners are essential workers?


  • #8328
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,394 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    KerryConnor wrote: »
    The Dublin school I teach in has no class under 27 and average around 29. Biggest class is 32.

    That's an outlier according to statistics. But the point remains.


  • #8329
    Stateofyou
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,431 ✭✭✭Stateofyou


    Hearty80 wrote: »
    Why cant the schools open and still keep children away from grandparents and elderly neighbours/friends. If UK schools reopen then its actually ridiculous for our schools to remain closed. Nursing homes are the major problem not schools or creches. Not a regular poster here but sounds like everyone just agrees with each other. Everything will be open soon then ye will have to come out of the bunkers.

    What has the UK choices got to do with us here in Ireland? Surely they've shown how NOT to respond, but the main thing should be for our own government and experts to respond to our own unique challenges and in accordance to what is happening here, not somewhere else. Obviously I think we should be looking to see how other countries are achieving results and to what worked somewhere else, but ultimately doing something just because the UK did and now we have to makes no sense.

    Schools aren't a main problem now like the care homes are because they've been closed. Not sure that's a fair comparison? I'd like to hear ideas on gradually re-opening parts of society again, but with a plan for prevention and also more testing in place. Will they supply schools with hand sanitizer? Will they wear masks? How will they ensure proper distancing? Will lunch time be lengthened to allow for hand washing and cleaning surfaces? My kids won't be going back until I can be assured of their safety and following on from that, ours. Just as we would for our workplaces.


  • #8330
    road_high
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,887 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    easypazz wrote: »
    All the realists are focused on it.

    The lockdown brigade bury their head in the sand when it is mentioned.

    It worries me greatly. Not just the shortish term costs but the inevitable downturn that it’s caused which reduces tax revenues going forward coupled with increased welfare and health spending. We will be in the red for a very long time


  • #8331
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,394 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    gnf_ireland wrote: »
    https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/irish-primary-schools-bottom-of-the-class-for-class-sizes-and-funding-in-europe-949949.html

    Average looks to be 25 based on this quick search. In the area I am in (high demand area), and I asked all schools this question most have between 28 and 33 per class, averaging 30. The absolute cutoff was 33.

    My youngest has 26 in a mixed grade class and eldest has 32 in a single grade class

    So, if you were to halve those numbers...


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  • #8332
    Cork Boy 53
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,829 ✭✭✭Cork Boy 53


    Simon Harris has stated that the number of new daily positive cases are still too high which they clearly are. Doesn`t strike me as something that he would say if a relaxation of the restrictions was going to happen anytime in the near future.


  • #8333
    khalessi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,216 ✭✭✭khalessi


    Averages always make things look better then they are. We have classes of Junior infants with 32 chidren in them


  • #8334
    Hearty80
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 122 ✭✭Hearty80


    Just open the schools as normal, social distancing is never possible with children. In 2 weeks time Ireland needs to restart the economy. Obviously teachers don't want to go back because they never do. Children are not super spreaders, in the uk essential workers were still able to send their children to school.


  • #8335
    khalessi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,216 ✭✭✭khalessi


    Professor Moriarty wrote: »
    So, if you were to halve those numbers...

    Halving them would not be enough, even in the lovely Danish photos doing the rounds they hve maybe 6 in each group


  • #8336
    gnf_ireland
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 431 ✭✭gnf_ireland


    KerryConnor wrote: »
    You're suggesting you could have half students in the school groups of 8/9. There wouldn't be enough classrooms, there's only one classroom per class group. And then small office size rooms. So you could only have a third or a quatre of the kids in at a time if you stick to those size groups.

    Would be great for the kids to have small classes for a year, they'd get a lot out of it. But they'd need to have lots extra classrooms. Maybe prefabs will be the answer in some schools

    Yes absolutely. This is not about getting back to normal and kids back into school full time. The aim would be to allow kids a level of social interaction which maintaining a proper connection with the school and complement the ongoing home schooling. This would not replace home schooling for the rest of the academic year, just support parents efforts to maintain the momentum and ensure they are not too far behind in September - as well as reduce the shock to the system when the kids have to go back in September.


  • #8337
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,394 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    khalessi wrote: »
    Halving them would not be enough, even in the lovely Danish photos doing the rounds they hve maybe 6 in each group

    So a classroom that accommodates 30 would not be able to accommodate 15 socially distanced kids?


  • #8338
    JRant
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,236 ✭✭✭✭JRant


    FishOnABike wrote: »
    It will be a logistical and practical nightmare. The biggest reservoirs of infection at the moment seem to be nursing/residential care homes and healthcare workers.

    Any workplace where social distancing and other strict anti-infection measures can't be effectively and consistently implemented will be problematic.

    If one worker tests positive they and their contacts will need to self isolate for up to a fortnight.

    Next day test results wouldn't help if it takes time for a person's viral load to increase to a detectable level after infection.

    With a significant % presymptomatic, asymptomatic or mildly symptomatic carriers it can spread under the radar before being detected.

    If a number of people in a household are working the opportunity for infection is multiplied and if there is intra-household transfer of the virus then all contacts in multiple workplaces will also have to self isolate for a two week quarantine period.

    With the prospect of repeated, significant, large levels of absenteeism, possibly amounting to effective shutdowns of a business, it would be an extremely difficult environment for any business to successfully operate in.

    It will be a challenge alright but not one we can't manage. There is going to be an increase in spread once the restrictions are eased, we just can't avoid that. However, the whole point of flattening the curve was to give time for additional capacity and testing to be ramped up. We have this on the capacity side but still lag on the testing unfortunately.

    "Well, yeah, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"



  • #8339
    gnf_ireland
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 431 ✭✭gnf_ireland


    Hearty80 wrote: »
    Just open the schools as normal, social distancing is never possible with children. In 2 weeks time Ireland needs to restart the economy. Obviously teachers don't want to go back because they never do. Children are not super spreaders, in the uk essential workers were still able to send their children to school.

    Sorry but that is never going to happen


  • #8340
    khalessi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,216 ✭✭✭khalessi


    Professor Moriarty wrote: »
    So a classroom that accommodates 30 would not be able to accommodate 15 socially distanced kids?

    No, not if socially distancing is done properly which in this country it wont be. In a lot of classrooms the square footage is given but doesnt allow for bulit in furniture

    Also will classes be deepcleaned properly daily?

    Will PPE be provided to staff?

    Can they co opt other buildings like they have hotels for drop down hospital?


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  • #8341
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,394 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    khalessi wrote: »
    No, not if socially distancing is done properly which in this country it wont be. In a lot of classrooms the square footage is given but doesnt allow for bulit in furniture

    Also will classes be deepcleaned properly daily?

    Will PPE be provided to staff?

    Can they co opt other buildings like they have hotels for drop down hospital?

    So it's mostly down to teacher safety and room size.


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