Covid19 Part XV - 15,251 in ROI (610 deaths) 2,645 in NI (194 deaths) (19/04) Read OP

amadangomor · 13-04-2020 08:41PM

Haven't checked here in a while.

Used to get good info and insights.

Now the moaners have taken over

13-04-2020 08:42PM

timmy_mallet wrote: »

Well, no, unless all governments are pulling a fast one.

They know where every case was in detail, when reported, plus a lot more. Do you think the daily briefings are everything the he’s know?

Stheno · 13-04-2020 08:42PM

trapp wrote: »

Genuine question as I am unsure.

But how influential are academics like Nolan and De Gascun in dictating policy.

Not sure about Nolan but De Gascun in on the NPHET who are the group who make recommendations around restrictions to the Govt

trapp · 13-04-2020 08:45PM

Deleted User wrote: »

More anti intellectual inverse snobbery? Who should advise then, bus drivers, binmen?

No but the experts need to be the right experts.

De Gascun and Nolan don't fill me with confidence to dictate the policy of the country long term, despite their advice being very welcome and despite the fact they are and have worked very hard for their country.

The politicians say they will defer to the experts but who are the experts?

Nolan and De Gascun?

If so I'd be slightly worried.

messin doorman · 13-04-2020 08:47PM

trapp wrote: »

Genuine question as I am unsure.

But how influential are academics like Nolan and De Gascun in dictating policy.

I'm not suggesting it's good or bad that they are, just curious as to how influential they might be?

Extremely influential. I heard Harris say on Prime Time very recently “we don’t take political decision” - which made me shudder. They should be taking political (by which I mean fully informed, weighed and rounded decisions). He should NOT be taking decisions based solely on what some very well intentioned doctors are saying

second example. Leo pressed in the Sunday Independent yesterday about whether the government got it wrong as far as nursing homes were concerned (I’m not saying that they did or didn’t for the moment). But guess what his answer was: we took the public health advice.

Which is a euphemism for: “don’t ask me, I’m only the Taoiseach- I did what the doctors told me”

Key concern here is: the doctors aren’t accountable (at least in the democratic sense) for these decisions and now it seems (by way of an Indian rope trick) neither are our politicians. Informed citizens should be worried

wadacrack · 13-04-2020 08:49PM

https://twitter.com/RachelDonadio/status/1249761575134728194

DevilsHaircut · 13-04-2020 08:49PM

messin doorman wrote: »

Extremely influential. I heard Harris say on Prime Time very recently “we don’t take political decision” - which made me shudder. They should be taking political (by which I mean fully informed, weighed and rounded decisions). He should NOT be taking decisions based solely on what some very well intentioned doctors are saying

second example. Leo pressed in the Sunday Independent yesterday about whether the government got it wrong as far as nursing homes were concerned (I’m not saying that they did or didn’t for the moment). But guess what his answer was: we took the public health advice.

Which is a euphemism for: “don’t ask me, I’m only the Taoiseach- I did what the doctors told me”

Key concern here is: the doctors aren’t accountable (at least in the democratic sense) for these decisions and now it seems (by way of an Indian rope trick) neither are our politicians. Informed citizens should be worried

They're not just 'doctors'.

Ficheall · 13-04-2020 08:50PM

messin doorman wrote: »

Extremely influential. I heard Harris say on Prime Time very recently “we don’t take political decision” - which made me shudder. They should be taking political (by which I mean fully informed, weighed and rounded decisions). He should NOT be taking decisions based solely on what some very well intentioned doctors are saying

second example. Leo pressed in the Sunday Independent yesterday about whether the government got it wrong as far as nursing homes were concerned (I’m not saying that they did or didn’t for the moment). But guess what his answer was: we took the public health advice.

We can't all have genius leaders like Trump who know everything without needing to heed the advice of experts.

And for the record, they were wrong as far as the nursing homes were concerned.

trapp · 13-04-2020 08:51PM

messin doorman wrote: »

Extremely influential. I heard Harris say on Prime Time very recently “we don’t take political decision” - which made me shudder. They should be taking political (by which I mean fully informed, weighed and rounded decisions). He should NOT be taking decisions based solely on what some very well intentioned doctors are saying

second example. Leo pressed in the Sunday Independent yesterday about whether the government got it wrong as far as nursing homes were concerned (I’m not saying that they did or didn’t for the moment). But guess what his answer was: we took the public health advice.

Which is a euphemism for: “don’t ask me, I’m onto the Taoiseach- I did what the doctors told me”

Key concern here is: the doctors aren’t accountable (at least in the democratic sense) for these decisions and now it seems (by way of an Indian rope trick) neither are our politicians. Informed citizens should be worried

Fully agree with this.

And concerned because, good in their own fields as they may be, De Gascun and Nolan for two don't fill me with any confidence to run the country.

They are academics. Good academics but still no more than that.

political analyst · 13-04-2020 08:51PM

https://www.forbes.com/sites/nathanvardi/2020/04/13/exclusive-astrazenecas-calquence-shows-early-promise-for-covid-19-patients/

British drug giant AstraZeneca is rushing forward a big clinical trial for its blood cancer drug Calquence because it has shown early promising results in later-stage COVID-19 patients—those in intensive care units and on ventilators. Calquence and top-selling leukemia drug Imbruvica are the latest hopes in getting coronavirus patients off ventilators, where there is a 50% mortality rate.

The federal government’s National Cancer Institute has given Calquence to a small number of hospitalized COVID-19 patients at the Walter Reed Army Medical Center. This effort has been expanded to other sites, partially through McKesson’s U.S. Oncology, the large cancer services company. Some of the severely ill COVID-19 patients who received Calquence, which is also known by its generic name acalabrutinib, were materially helped by the drug, people familiar with the matter say.

One of the most serious medical issues of the current pandemic is how the immune system of people infected with SARS-CoV-2 fights off the virus. Some COVID-19 patients have become critically ill or died after cytokine molecules in their bodies sparked an out-of-control immune response (or cytokine storm) that damaged the lungs or caused acute respiratory distress syndrome (ARDS), which floods the lungs with fluid.

Calquence and Imbruvica are known as Bruton’s tyrosine kinase (BTK) inhibitors because they block the BTK protein that is key to the signaling of white blood B cells of the human immune system into action. These drugs have proven to be especially effective in patients with chronic lymphocytic leukemia, but they also have an anti-inflammatory benefit like arthritis drugs.

“The science of acalabrutinib and, I think more than that, of Bruton’s tyrosine kinase situation, is pretty strong. The mechanism is very clear,” said José Baselga, the head of oncology research and development at AstraZeneca.

“The cytokine storm that occurs in the pneumonia of these patients is heavily mediated by Bruton’s kinase and, unlike approaches that are trying to deal with one cytokine at a time, I see this more as a truncal intervention, in which you are basically hitting the central key pathway that regulates many of these cytokines so the rationale is incredibly strong . . . it gives us the opportunity to address the whole problem.”

Early last week, AstraZeneca formed a COVID-19 task force after receiving early data regarding patients given Calquence by the NCI. Baselga said that within 72 hours the company had completed drafting a COVID-19 clinical trial and submitted it to the FDA, the fastest study he has ever seen put together in his 30-year career. Such an effort would normally take more than three months.

One tricky issue AstraZeneca has had to work through is how to give Calquence, which is a capsule, to patients who are on ventilators. AstraZeneca is advising doctors to give the drug through a tube in a solution made up of Coca-Cola, which due to its acidity properly liquefies the powder. The drug has already been administered in such a fashion.

RobertKK · 13-04-2020 08:53PM

messin doorman wrote: »

Extremely influential. I heard Harris say on Prime Time very recently “we don’t take political decision” - which made me shudder. They should be taking political (by which I mean fully informed, weighed and rounded decisions). He should NOT be taking decisions based solely on what some very well intentioned doctors are saying

second example. Leo pressed in the Sunday Independent yesterday about whether the government got it wrong as far as nursing homes were concerned (I’m not saying that they did or didn’t for the moment). But guess what his answer was: we took the public health advice.

Which is a euphemism for: “don’t ask me, I’m onto the Taoiseach- I did what the doctors told me”

Key concern here is: the doctors aren’t accountable (at least in the democratic sense) for these decisions and now it seems (by way of an Indian rope trick) neither are our politicians. Informed citizens should be worried

This is what I am talking about.
Simon Harris always deflects onto others, he has spent his whole career as the minister for health deflecting decisions and responsibility as being the actions or recommendations of others, he never ultimately takes responsibility apart from the Easter Bunny because I doubt he wasted the time of the experts like he claimed for that advice...
People need to listen to all the deflection of responsibility he has done and continues to do.
It is like the Nuremburg trials with Simon Harris "I was only following orders" from others.

easypazz · 13-04-2020 08:54PM

joe_99 wrote: »

This is the third graph shows German tests on correct dates. Red line.

We were seeing a nice drop on red line until a few days ago when it started to grow again. Probably down to increase in testing

Is there any graph where number of tests is averaged off?

Say number of positives per 000 on each day the swab was taken.

trapp · 13-04-2020 08:54PM

RobertKK wrote: »

This is what I am talking about.
Simon Harris always deflects onto others, he has spent his whole career as the minister for health deflecting decisions and responsibility as being the actions or recommendations of others, he never ultimately takes responsibility apart from the Easter Bunny because I doubt he wasted the time of the experts like he claimed for that advice...
People need to listen to all the deflection of responsibility he has done and continues to do.
It is like the Nuremburg trials with Simon Harris "I was only following orders" from others.

But who are the others?

If the experts are the right experts then fair enough but De Gascun and Nolan haven't filled me with confidence.

Who else is on that commitee?

Anita Blow · 13-04-2020 08:56PM

JP Liz V1 wrote: »

If you were given a negative diagnosis, you could have gone out but because positive then spreading the virus without knowing, 100 positive cases getting the wrong negative result first when positive is bad by HSE

I think we need to get the testing here working well, delayed results at nearly 20 to 30 days is ridiculous

Every single test for every single disease in every single country carries a certain proportion of false negatives and positives. They are unavoidable. The HSE is not responsible for this fact of life.

Ardent · 13-04-2020 08:56PM

I can't believe the rubbish I'm reading on this thread - nitpicking and potshots at the government. Let's be clear, there are no winners with this virus, only losers. And the countries that lose the least are those that follow WHO and medical advice. I think our current leaders have done a fine job up to now in that regard.

13-04-2020 08:58PM

TheDoctor wrote: »

French president Emmanuel Macron has said that lockdown in his country is to be extended until 11 May.

But importantly he has said what he intends to relax on 11 May, such as crèches and some schools to return. Articulating that 11 May will be the start of some relaxing of the lockdown I am sure will make the month between now and then much easier to handle and see a higher level of obedience, compared to if he had just extended the status quo for a month with no communication of a plan

DevilsHaircut · 13-04-2020 08:58PM

No sane government (I'm not including the US in that) would go against the recommendations of the experts it has appointed to advise it in the event of a global pandemic.

Sam Russell · 13-04-2020 08:59PM

Mwengwe wrote: »

May have been off-base with earlier comments about supermarket workers

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/04/12/grocery-worker-fear-death-coronavirus/

I was surprised at this.

Retail workers in their 60s, 70s and 80s say they’re worried about their health — but need the money

How many workers in Supermarkets are aged over 70?

messin doorman · 13-04-2020 09:00PM

Ficheall wrote: »

We can't all have genius leaders like Trump who know everything without needing to heed the advice of experts.

And for the record, they were wrong as far as the nursing homes were concerned.

By all means heed the advice of your experts. In fact if you believe in the advice, follow it. But be accountable for it. Understand the advice, probe it, critique it, stand over it. And when a journalist probes you over your decisions as an elected representative have the spine and courage and principle to explain why you took the decisions you took and why your experts were right. Don’t point the figure at your experts like a coward, like you are a passenger in this crisis.

Jim_Hodge · 13-04-2020 09:02PM

Sam Russell wrote: »

I was surprised at this.

How many workers in Supermarkets are aged over 70?

In the US? At least 50% of them.

trapp · 13-04-2020 09:02PM

DevilsHaircut wrote: »

No sane government (I'm not including the US in that) would go against the recommendations of the experts it has appointed to advise it in the event of a global pandemic.

100% correct.

But who are the experts that are dictating policy?

Nolan made his approach clear on prime time.

''Better not to think of lifting restrictions''

That's not the approach to run a country.

I'm not saying the experts are wrong but if they are effectively running the country we need to know who they are and how good they are.

Nolan and De Gascun are academics and don't inspire confidence to run the country. Others will need to be involved in the decision making process too.

Maestro85 · 13-04-2020 09:03PM

Thoughts on this.

https://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=229893

American friend of mine told me today that this is going to be the new Hail Mary pass that will be talked about in the US like chloroquine.

TLDR: Anti-Parasite Drug Ivermectin Stunts COVID-19 Virus Culture in Lab Study

JP Liz V1 · 13-04-2020 09:05PM

There have been 199 deaths recorded in community settings and 167 of those have happened in nursing homes here

https://twitter.com/FergalBowers/status/1249777764531687426

BabysCoffee · 13-04-2020 09:05PM

Sam Russell wrote: »

I was surprised at this.

How many workers in Supermarkets are aged over 70?

Older workers in supermarkets in the states are very common. Many work the tils but some very old people are employed as "greeters" at the doors of the supermarket - they give you a trolley as you enter the store

Doctors room ghost · 13-04-2020 09:07PM

amadangomor wrote: »

Haven't checked here in a while.

Used to get good info and insights.

Now the moaners have taken over

”They lie in wait like wolves. The smell of blood in their nostrils. Waiting. Interminably waiting”

DevilsHaircut · 13-04-2020 09:08PM

trapp wrote: »

100% correct.

But who are the experts that are dictating policy?

Nolan made his approach clear on prime time.

''Better not to think of lifting restrictions''

That's not the approach to run a country.

I'm not saying the experts are wrong but if they are effectively running the country we need to know who they are and how good they are.

Nolan and De Gascun are academics and don't inspire confidence to run the country. Others will need to be involved in the decision making process too.

Do you think we need a clear-out of NPHET right now? Perhaps a referendum so the public can appoint the new members, Paddy Cosgrave, Conor McGregor...?

RobertKK · 13-04-2020 09:08PM

trapp wrote: »

But who are the others?

If the experts are the right experts then fair enough but De Gascun and Nolan haven't filled me with confidence.

Who else is on that commitee?

I do not know.
There is a void in between where all are putting the responsibility.

The experts rightly say they give their advice and it is up to the government to make a decision based on that.
At the same time rather than accepting ultimate responsibility, the government do be sure to make it clear how it was not their own wisdom, but they make it clear it is based on the experts and they are doing it based on what they said.
This takes away the responsibility the government have for the decision, if it goes wrong, they will not accept the responsibility but blame the experts.
The experts have been left very exposed by the government.

RobertKK · 13-04-2020 09:14PM

Ardent wrote: »

I can't believe the rubbish I'm reading on this thread - nitpicking and potshots at the government. Let's be clear, there are no winners with this virus, only losers. And the countries that lose the least are those that follow WHO and medical advice. I think our current leaders have done a fine job up to now in that regard.

Some would view your post, just as how you view others as being rubbish.

Do people seriously believe the actions in early March for example were good?
Ireland has been following the actions of other countries, we have never been a leader in all of this.

messin doorman · 13-04-2020 09:16PM

RobertKK wrote: »

I do not know.
There is a void in between where all are putting the responsibility.

The experts rightly say they give their advice and it is up to the government to make a decision based on that.
At the same time rather than accepting ultimate responsibility, the government do be sure to make it clear how it was not their own wisdom, but they make it clear it is based on the experts and they are doing it based on what they said.
This takes away the responsibility the government have for the decision, if it goes wrong, they will not accept the responsibility but blame the experts.
The experts have been left very exposed by the government.

To cap it all off we don’t even have a functioning parliament yet to hold the government to account either. Again, not something anyone was in a rush to remedy

Last time the Dáil sat harris was screaming that they should NOT be sitting and it was shameful owing to the health risk.

Absolute twilight zone stuff. You wouldn’t get French people putting up with this galactical absurdity

Boggles · 13-04-2020 09:23PM

Ardent wrote: »

I can't believe the rubbish I'm reading on this thread - nitpicking and potshots at the government. Let's be clear, there are no winners with this virus, only losers. And the countries that lose the least are those that follow WHO and medical advice. I think our current leaders have done a fine job up to now in that regard.

The WHO won't recommend masks, and the medical advice up until quite recently was go visit your granny in the nursing home, be grand.

Anyone who thinks our governance or the WHO are doing a fine job is either delusional or Simon Harris.

If we can't get testing even semi right during a lock down, we haven't a hope of reopening anything.

Let's hope they start getting their shít together, because 20 days for front line staff waiting for test results is nowhere fúcking near a "fine job".

It's a complete shít show!

Covid19 Part XV - 15,251 in ROI (610 deaths) 2,645 in NI (194 deaths) (19/04) Read OP

Comments