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Rights on Notice of Redeployment in Public Sector

124

Comments

  • #92
    noodler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,479 ✭✭✭✭noodler


    beauf wrote: »
    Lets take your inference that these people are sitting at home nothing to do and go full hyperbole.

    So say someone has no work and is sitting at home for a month with nothing to do. They work up 1.5 days of FL. Another person sitting at home with nothing to do doesn't work up this 1.5.

    So for those 1.5 days. Both have nothing to do. Whats the difference in the real world.

    I guess that's a bit like saying, what's charm if someone takes the max uncertified sick leave (again agreeing that the Flexi wasnt 'legitimately' earned) You could argue what's the harm if said employee does nothing anyway. But a cost actually was put on that (for the purposes of what would be saved when the allowable uncertified sick leave was reduced from 7 days a year to 7 days over a two year period). I can't remember the figures, and you could argue about whether these were cash savings that were fully realised.

    Nevertheless your example is as you say, hyperbole, and doing less than usual is still not nothing. One problem I would see is people building Flexi when it is not busy and then utilising it when things are busier.

    I admit we are in strange times, and obviously you aren't advocating additional free leave for people doing nothing anyway, but it is a very reductive way of looking at it.


  • #93
    AulWan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,653 ✭✭✭AulWan


    beauf wrote: »
    Lets take your inference that these people are sitting at home nothing to do and go full hyperbole.

    So say someone has no work and is sitting at home for a month with nothing to do. They work up 1.5 days of FL. Another person sitting at home with nothing to do doesn't work up this 1.5.

    So for those 1.5 days. Both have nothing to do. Whats the difference in the real world.

    With effect from 1 July 2014, the maximum amount of flexi leave allowed in any flexi period (4 weeks) is one day.


  • #94
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,690 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    mod can you ALL cut out the squabbling immediately or there will be further cards


  • #95
    Cork Lass
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,081 ✭✭✭Cork Lass


    Reputable Rog wrote: »
    Nothing understandable about it. The Unions have been deplorable.

    I disagree with this. These are unprecedented times and the government has instructed that people be redeployed. What Union could possibly stand in the way of this. How would you feel if the teachers refused to go back into the schools in June and July should they reopen for the exams?


  • #96
    noodler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,479 ✭✭✭✭noodler


    AulWan wrote: »
    With effect from 1 July 2014, the maximum amount of flexi leave allowed in any flexi period (4 weeks) is one day.

    Increased back up to 1.5 a while ago.


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  • #97
    P2C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 253 ✭✭P2C


    If you have childcare issues and need to look after your kids during this crisis you probably will have to take parental leave/ special leave or reduced pay/ hours. If you’re not available for redeployment you’re not available for work. Unless your existing job is continuing and can be done remotely . I have seen loads of staff not coming into work since middle of March and citing childcare even though we are in the middle of a crisis and they have the skills to be in a position to help out.
    jadie wrote: »
    I’m also in this predicament and Forsa were no help to me. My workplace (public sector) does not have a deployment policy normally.

    I am waiting to hear back from PAS but with childcare issues can really only work from home. I’m not sure if we have any rights. If we refuse is it a disciplinary matter?


  • #98
    customerunhap
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17 ✭customerunhap


    Is this a wind-up?
    “I have seen loads of staff not coming into work since middle of March and citing childcare even though we are in the middle of a crisis and they have the skills to be in a position to help out.”
    The reason people potentially can’t attend work is because the state has told childcare providers to close, and what’s astonishing is the trade union I am a member of (for now) have gone along with the re-deployment of their members without any planning from employers regarding childcare.
    If I’m forced to take unpaid leave I will have to do so, I’ll lose out pay, the state will lose out tax wise and the first thing I’ll cut will be my trade union membership with Forsa as they’ve been useless to me regarding this matter when I sought advice.
    I want to go along with re-deployment, should we just bring our kids along to work so, is that what you suggest?


  • #99
    P2C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 253 ✭✭P2C


    I am citing what a senior HR manager told me last week when enquiring about a staff member I line manage who has not come into work since the middle of March. The rest of the department have being attending work as they have been redeployed to setting up testing centres, contact training and admin in public health. This person original role has ceased and they were to be available for redeployment. They have refused those requests. Basically the person has done no work for a month. They are at home looking after their kids. The point from HR is that the circulars are for people who can and are suitable for working from home should work from home. This person is not in the category. That’s the position of the employer. I know it sounds harsh for all the reasons you stated. I was told their are 1000’s in the same position. The grievance process is the next step if they don’t take leave or parental leave. Be interesting to see if they cut pay in the next few months or will the unions intervene.


  • #100
    Addle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,817 ✭✭✭Addle


    They will cut pay.


  • #101
    customerunhap
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17 ✭customerunhap


    In fairness, if it’s a public servant refusing the option of working from home via redeployment instead of going in, that’s not on.

    What I am stating is if I am told be at an office 9-5 Mon Fri, and you aren’t providing any flexibility as an employer to work from home in light of no creches permitted open, that is totally unreasonable.


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  • #102
    gauchesnell
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 949 ✭✭✭gauchesnell


    why dont you move the person into a role that can be done remotely. Cant agree that their are thousands in the same position.

    I am a public servant and would love to be redeployed but my whole sector isnt eligible (im in education). My work hasnt provided us admin with any work laptops and there is only a certain amount that can be done from home on a personal laptop. Management arent bothered about us.

    Would gladly volunteer to move to take pressure off those that cant due to childcare/other issues but I cant. Maybe a volunteer register might work better.


  • #103
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    You might be able to juggle childcare or similar and work from home in your existing job. You might not if redeployed and not allowed to work from home.

    I'm not sure people are getting that distinction.

    Someone who is not doing anything, well that's entirely different. I'm not even sure that needs clarifying.


  • #104
    AulWan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,653 ✭✭✭AulWan


    Two in my section (that I have been covering for!) have been redeployed for contact tracing. Not in our own offices but in other locations.

    The work is being done in different shifts, I think 8am-2pm and 2pm-10pm. So while one shift might not suit, the other might be possible for someone with kids.

    I was told DSP work could not be done remotely.


  • #105
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    noodler wrote: »
    I guess that's a bit like saying, what's charm if someone takes the max uncertified sick leave (again agreeing that the Flexi wasnt 'legitimately' earned) You could argue what's the harm if said employee does nothing anyway. But a cost actually was put on that (for the purposes of what would be saved when the allowable uncertified sick leave was reduced from 7 days a year to 7 days over a two year period). I can't remember the figures, and you could argue about whether these were cash savings that were fully realised.

    Nevertheless your example is as you say, hyperbole, and doing less than usual is still not nothing. One problem I would see is people building Flexi when it is not busy and then utilising it when things are busier.

    I admit we are in strange times, and obviously you aren't advocating additional free leave for people doing nothing anyway, but it is a very reductive way of looking at it.

    Well you are factually wrong. It's not free leave. No matter how often you repeat this incorrectly.

    You request leave, so if it doesn't suit the business needs it can be refused. If so your staff end up on leave at the same time that's the managers responsibility.

    This has nothing to sick leave. Even if it was there are rules and regulations around that also. But that's a entirely different topic.

    Basically you've avoided the question. If some one is doing nothing. What leave they take has no effect. You've got bigger issues than Flexi in that case.

    But you're not really discussing leave. You're discussing performance and productivity just obliquely. That should not be measured by clock watching either, or by peoples physical presence. But many places do this no doubt.

    Most places don't have proper metrics anyway. Many places are just realising this now. Maybe.


  • #106
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    AulWan wrote: »
    Two in my section (that I have been covering for!) have been redeployed for contact tracing. Not in our own offices but in other locations.

    The work is being done in different shifts, I think 8am-2pm and 2pm-10pm. So while one shift might not suit, the other might be possible for someone with kids.

    I was told DSP work could not be done remotely.

    It would depend if someone else in the household can do their job and cover childcare. In theory they could both have to do the same shift.

    As some said earlier in that case they would have to go on unpaid leave for 2-3 months.


  • #107
    AulWan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,653 ✭✭✭AulWan


    What is more likely is they will either (a) try to go on sick leave or (b) be forced to leave their kids with the grandparents again, as I don't know anyone who can afford to lose 2/3 months wage, and before you know it, the whole thing will start all over again.


  • #108
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Sick leave won't cover it.

    High risk mixing kids and grandparents.


  • #109
    AulWan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,653 ✭✭✭AulWan


    beauf wrote: »
    Sick leave won't cover it.

    High risk mixing kids and grandparents.

    I meant sick leave for non-Covid related illness.

    I agree about the grandparents, but if people are desparate enough, they will take the risk rather then face 3 months with no income, and no entitlment to the Pandemic Payment. Especially in one income families or where both incomes are civil service.


  • #110
    noodler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,479 ✭✭✭✭noodler


    beauf wrote: »
    Well you are factually wrong. It's not free leave. No matter how often you repeat this incorrectly.

    You request leave, so if it doesn't suit the business needs it can be refused. If so your staff end up on leave at the same time that's the managers responsibility.

    This has nothing to sick leave. Even if it was there are rules and regulations around that also. But that's a entirely different topic.

    Basically you've avoided the question. If some one is doing nothing. What leave they take has no effect. You've got bigger issues than Flexi in that case.

    But you're not really discussing leave. You're discussing performance and productivity just obliquely. That should not be measured by clock watching either, or by peoples physical presence. But many places do this no doubt.

    Most places don't have proper metrics anyway. Many places are just realising this now. Maybe.

    I have to be honest.

    You accuse me of avoiding the question but you are actually just playing down the impact of spurious flexitime. Of course it is free if it spuriously claimed. That was the whole hypothesis you put forward in your previous post.

    I didn't avoid the question, I was quite clear. You put forward an extreme "they do nothing" example and asked "what harm if they miss a day spuriously claimed if they do nothing anyway". I told you quite clearly there is a monetary cost associated with reducing spurious absences.

    You didn't like the answer.

    You have brought the discussion into a strange place though - " what harm etc"

    I'd agree "clock watching" isn't the only way to measure performance however, why you keep bringing it up in a discussion about abuse of timekeeping is unclear.


  • #111
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    You keep repeating "What harm" I never said that and never inferred that. That's a misrepresentation.

    The premise of spurious sick leave is the assumption that when in work they are productive and when on sick leave they are not.
    Hence the issue of cost. Cost is simply another way to measure productivity and output.
    noodler wrote: »
    ...The idea of keeping Flexi when ppl could log on at 8 and then log out at 7, without any supervision or verification of the actual work requirement, potentially netting them a further 1.5 days of AL a month, is absolutely ridiculous......

    However if there is no "supervision or verification of the actual work" it doesn't matter if you work flexi or 9-5.
    If no work is getting done. The output is the same. So cost saving between flexi or 9-5 is nil (if no work is getting done)

    So this then isn't a question about timekeeping. Its about productivity and remote working.
    How do you know someone is being productive if you can't see them. Then again how do you know they are productive when in the office anyway?


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  • #112
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    AulWan wrote: »
    I meant sick leave for non-Covid related illness.

    I realize that. But stretching that to 2 months? Unlikely.
    AulWan wrote: »
    I agree about the grandparents, but if people are desparate enough, they will take the risk rather then face 3 months with no income, and no entitlment to the Pandemic Payment. Especially in one income families or where both incomes are civil service.

    Oh I agree. I have no answers.


  • #113
    drake70
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 656 ✭✭✭drake70


    AulWan wrote: »
    Two in my section (that I have been covering for!) have been redeployed for contact tracing. Not in our own offices but in other locations.

    The work is being done in different shifts, I think 8am-2pm and 2pm-10pm. So while one shift might not suit, the other might be possible for someone with kids.

    I was told DSP work could not be done remotely.

    Incorrect. Many DSP staff are working remotely.


  • #114
    AulWan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,653 ✭✭✭AulWan


    drake70 wrote: »
    Incorrect. Many DSP staff are working remotely.
    Maybe current DSP staff are working remotely.

    I just posted the information as I was given it from my HR Unit. I am former DSP staff and enquired about returning to DSP in a remote capacity, but was informed that redeployed staff would not be able to work remotely.

    I am restricted to working remotely due to being high risk with underlying health conditions.


  • #115
    Reputable Rog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭Reputable Rog


    Cork Lass wrote: »
    I disagree with this. These are unprecedented times and the government has instructed that people be redeployed. What Union could possibly stand in the way of this. How would you feel if the teachers refused to go back into the schools in June and July should they reopen for the exams?

    The Unions have gone to ground, people are asking for guidance and clarification on matters around H&S, redeployment and ancillary matters and all they get back is refer to protocol this or circular that.
    Not good enough when people are paying over €300 a year out of their take home pay for representation.


  • #116
    Cork Lass
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,081 ✭✭✭Cork Lass


    Reputable Rog wrote: »
    The Unions have gone to ground, people are asking for guidance and clarification on matters around H&S, redeployment and ancillary matters and all they get back is refer to protocol this or circular that.
    Not good enough when people are paying over €300 a year out of their take home pay for representation.

    I don’t know what union you’re a member of but I’m constantly getting email updates from forsa plus lots of info on the website.


  • #117
    jadie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 900 ✭✭✭jadie


    P2C wrote: »
    I am citing what a senior HR manager told me last week when enquiring about a staff member I line manage who has not come into work since the middle of March. The rest of the department have being attending work as they have been redeployed to setting up testing centres, contact training and admin in public health. This person original role has ceased and they were to be available for redeployment. They have refused those requests. Basically the person has done no work for a month. They are at home looking after their kids. The point from HR is that the circulars are for people who can and are suitable for working from home should work from home. This person is not in the category. That’s the position of the employer. I know it sounds harsh for all the reasons you stated. I was told their are 1000’s in the same position. The grievance process is the next step if they don’t take leave or parental leave. Be interesting to see if they cut pay in the next few months or will the unions intervene.

    Did this person refuse remote working? Offered to them or not?


  • #118
    jadie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 900 ✭✭✭jadie


    Can we work remotely with HSE redeployment?


  • #119
    Technocentral
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,111 ✭✭✭Technocentral


    jadie wrote: »
    Can we work remotely with HSE redeployment?

    Id say limited chance as you couldnt use your personal phone to ring people for contact tracing?


  • #120
    Reputable Rog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭Reputable Rog


    Cork Lass wrote: »
    I don’t know what union you’re a member of but I’m constantly getting email updates from forsa plus lots of info on the website.

    They’re great to issue statements but getting them to actually advise on matters is another days work. I’m a member of LAPO.


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  • #121
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Technocentral wrote: »
    Id say limited chance as you couldnt use your personal phone to ring people for contact tracing?

    If they are using VoIP you could use a computer and headset to do this. It would be more of an issue around access to data I assume.


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