The Chinese Big Lie

BanditLuke wrote: »

You think the average Chinese citizen organised this? Where did i say i'd anything against anyone but the CCP?

Because the article is about the people of Wuhan celebrating their lockdown being over. They've literally not left their (likely incredibly small) apartments for over 2 months. Something like this can also be used for propaganda purposes by the CCP for sure, but it doesn't mean that people in Wuhan need to be completely somber and without any joy when coming out of this.

Do Irish people only now, after this coronavirus crisis, realise that China is a big dishonest country, even to its own people, even on China's constitution:

http://en.people.cn/constitution/constitution.html

Constitution of the People's Republic of China wrote:

Article 35. Citizens of the People's Republic of China enjoy freedom of speech, of the press, of assembly, of association, of procession and of demonstration.

Article 36. Citizens of the People's Republic of China enjoy freedom of religious belief. No state organ, public organization or individual may compel citizens to believe in, or not to believe in, any religion; nor may they discriminate against citizens who believe in, or do not believe in, any religion. The state protects normal religious activities. No one may make use of religion to engage in activities that disrupt public order, impair the health of citizens or interfere with the educational system of the state. Religious bodies and religious affairs are not subject to any foreign domination.

Article 37. The freedom of person of citizens of the People's Republic of China is inviolable. No citizen may be arrested except with the approval or by decision of a people's procuratorate or by decision of a people's court, and arrests must be made by a public security organ. Unlawful deprivation or restriction of citizens' freedom of person by detention or other means is prohibited; and unlawful search of the person of citizens is prohibited. Article 38. The personal dignity of citizens of the People's Republic of China is inviolable. Insult, libel, false charge or frame-up directed against citizens by any means is prohibited.

Article 39. The home of citizens of the People's Republic of China is inviolable. Unlawful search of, or intrusion into, a citizen's home is prohibited.

Article 40. The freedom and privacy of correspondence of citizens of the People's Republic of China are protected by law. No organization or individual may, on any ground, infringe upon the freedom and privacy of citizens' correspondence except in cases where, to meet the needs of state security or of investigation into criminal offences, public security or procuratorial organs are permitted to censor correspondence in accordance with procedures prescribed by law.

Article 41. Citizens of the People's Republic of China have the right to criticize and make suggestions to any state organ or functionary. Citizens have the right to make to relevant state organs complaints and charges against, or exposures of, violation of the law or dereliction of duty by any state organ or functionary; but fabrication or distortion of facts with the intention of libel or frame-up is prohibited. In case of complaints, charges or exposures made by citizens, the state organ concerned must deal with them in a responsible manner after ascertaining the facts. No one may suppress such complaints, charges and exposures, or retaliate against the citizens making them. Citizens who have suffered losses through infringement of their civil rights by any state organ or functionary have the right to compensation in accordance with the law.

I hope one positive outcome of this crisis is everyone (especially the West) try to understand China better, both its positive and negatives. Whether you like China or not, China's actions will affect all of us in the next 20 years. Hope we won't just keep thinking China is just a cheap tat factories for merchandises in our pound/euro stores.

Deleted User wrote: »

The point remains though. The US has not done well in wars since WW2.

Again, it depends on what you are referring to. If you are referring to the US military, then it has done fine. If you are referring to political decision making and interference, then that is different.

Rhetoric coming from their politicians, and the estimates by military experts. The "leaks" to the media of "plans", and that they already have special forces in country. Add to that covid will have weakened them considerably. Plenty of reasons.

Nah, I don't buy it. If things were going to kick off, they would have some months back after the assassination of Soleimani. The US got what they wanted out of that one, and backed off.

I can definitely see lots of unconventional pressure being exhorted though.

Previously? Sure. Now? Not so much. What do you do when the US is the aggressor?

What does who do?
Why would the US be the aggressor in the Pacific Rim? They have their bases there, they have their alliances already in place. All they need to do is hold fast and let China push the others even closer into their fold. It is already happening.

Also the US no longer has much interest in keeping extensive military tied up in Asia, which means they're reacting to events.... by taking forces from other territories. Again, their force projection capabilities are limited these days, so it's questionable as to whether US forces would arrive in time to be useful in the defense of any of these countries.

Afaik that is a lot of talk from Trump et al, but there are still well over 80,000 US military personel stationed in the East Asian region alone. And I cant see that number dwindling. I know Australia signed an agreement with the US to station an extra 2,500 marines in Dawin.

Some further reading brought me here.
https://www.pacom.mil/About-USINDOPACOM/

Approximately 375,000 U.S. military and civilian personnel are assigned to the USINDOPACOM area of responsibility. U.S. Pacific Fleet consists of approximately 200 ships (to include five aircraft carrier strike groups), nearly 1,100 aircraft, and more than 130,000 Sailors and civilians dedicated to protecting our mutual security interests. Marine Corps Forces, Pacific includes two Marine Expeditionary Forces and about 86,000 personnel and 640 aircraft assigned. U.S. Pacific Air Forces comprises of approximately 46,000 airmen and civilians and more than 420 aircraft. U.S. Army Pacific has approximately 106,000 personnel from one corps and two divisions, plus over 300 aircraft and five watercraft assigned throughout the AOR from Japan and Korea to Alaska and Hawaii. Of note, component command personnel numbers include more than 1,200 Special Operations personnel. Department of Defense civilian employees in the Indo-Pacific Command AOR number about 38,000.

I know some of those numbers include personel in Hawaii, but still, its looks like Obama's pivot to Asia may have been wise in hindsight.

Except that China won't. They gain nothing of value. China want a return to Imperial power, where all of Asia admired the strength and wealth of the Empire. They want to be admired and receive worship. They don't want land that they can't hold. Xinjiang, Tibet, etc have all been harsh lessons in that respect. Taiwan is different. Not taking Taiwan would be the end of the CCP.

You contradict yourself in the very same paragraph. You state that China has no interest being the aggressor, or empire but wants respect and adulration. Then you state clearly, that they must take back Taiwan, something that can only happen with a military invasion. So which is it. They are either aggressors or not?

You think if that invasion happens, South Korea, Japan, Vietnam, India, the Philippines, Australia, Indonesia, Thailand would just say, 'Ah grand so, Ted'?

Hell no. They would all be pushed into some form of US backed military alliance.
And that is not even mentioning the US. It will be a brave American president to let Taiwan go without a fight. Obama was weakend by his talk on Syria and Russia, yet he did nothing. Taiwan would be that by x100

If Taiwan is so important to China why has it not happened already?

Sure, except they all hate each other. Asian's remember their history and every little hatred. It's definitely possible except, that I don't think it's needed. And they know that.... except for Japan. Japan will always remain a serious target.

The Europeans don't think the same? Germany, France, the UK... always the best of friends? Yet, all members of NATO.
If there is a big enough bully in the neighbourhood, interests can become alligned.

China wants a defensive ring. They want territory in which they can create defenses against any aggression. Taiwan punches a whole in any such network, which is why they sought to create island bases.

I always thought of it in terms of trade routes, hence the push for the belt and road initiative.

Maybe they are overly paranoid. I don't think any country wants to invade China, or have boots on the ground. Taiwan does its own thing, its not a threat militarily, but it is a percieved threat in the minds of the leadership. Personally, I think they need to let that ship sail and get on with it. We saw the push back in Hong Kong, Taiwan would be a million times worse for them, its not just worth it.

You might be hearing a lot, but most Asians I know or have met, have dismissed HK because they understand that what happened, was always going to happen. HK was land stolen by the British when China was weak, and China isn't weak anymore. What they do within their own territories is of no concern to other Asians... since they would expect the same courtesy extended to them.

Well, maybe they are Asians who reside in China, but for the Asians I speak to, Hong Kong definitely is a big deal, the thin edge of the wedge if you please. They see it are ground zero currently, that if China gets to do what it wants there, renege on its treaty obligations and the west nowhere to be seen, then it will be up to each country in the region to cooperate to try and frustrate further Chinese incursions.

FVP3 wrote: »

This whole thread should be retitled The US Deep State Big Lie.

Funny how the trump supporters think the whole Steele Dossier was a deep state outsourced fake, but when the same agencies and their neoconservative outlets ( often hostile to Trump) tell us that China lied, that "intelligence forces" say that 40 times as many people died, that China controls the WHO, they fall in line, like the good sheeple that they are.

By all means create a thread like that, but this thread is about China.

Its a free country, but lets not try and do your usual poor attempt at dragging this thread off topic now.

To whoever on this supporting China non stop (can’t recall your names and have muted some of you) here are some facts

The US is far and away the strongest military force On the planet.

China would pay up if the rest of the world demanded multi billion dollar rolling monthly fines until wet markets are eradicated. (Not based on Chinese propaganda)