The Chinese Big Lie

beauf · 08-04-2020 07:14AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

....
Japan's ...has the best navy in Asia. Hand down. The best. ...

China has a vast navy. It's already in numerous territorial disputes at sea with it's neighbours as it tries to strong arm its neighbours.

https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/navy-ships/a27532437/china-now-has-more-warships-than-the-us/

cryptocurrency · 08-04-2020 08:26AM

declanflynn wrote: »

Ireland is way ahead of China on almost every measure and always will be

Militarily? Thats comforting to know.

BanditLuke · 08-04-2020 09:23AM

When all this is said and done the world needs to social distance China from the civilised world.

Doctors room ghost · 08-04-2020 09:26AM

BanditLuke wrote: »

When all this is said and done the world needs to social distance China from the civilised world.

Won’t happen.we will be still buying their plastic tat and thanking them for taking our money.

2u2me · 08-04-2020 09:27AM

declanflynn wrote: »

Ireland is way ahead of China on almost every measure and always will be

I had a good laugh at this thanks!

For anyone still disputing the numbers of China, how about those of Taiwan? Ther numbers are also very low and their testing is ridiculously good. Their curves followed the same trajectory.

Are they also lying?

Taiwain's response is one of the best globally

The question is not what Australia[or western countries] did wrong -- 20 countries have more cases than Australia, and seven have more than 10 times as many -- but how Taiwan has kept the virus under control when other parts of the world have not.

Bold bits I added.

_Brian · 08-04-2020 09:30AM

declanflynn wrote: »

Ireland is way ahead of China on almost every measure and always will be

I think your mistaking “different” with “ahead”
It’s the typical position of narrow minds that automatically think of a culture that’s so radically different as somehow lesser than our own.

2u2me · 08-04-2020 09:34AM

BanditLuke wrote: »

When all this is said and done the world needs to social distance China from the civilised world.

Because they harvest organs from falon gong practitioners? Or because they are a emerging superpower intent on stealing the worlds intellectual property?
Or is it because they are a communist regime that needs stopping?
Or because they assimilate different cultures, imprison and reeducate millions of muslims?

If it's for those reasons I'm with you; if it's because you're scared of another corona virus outbreak then I've got news for you; it's not restricted to China. You better go find a cave somewhere and start renovating.

TheValeyard · 08-04-2020 09:35AM

_Brian wrote: »

I think your mistaking “different” with “ahead”
It’s the typical position of narrow minds that automatically think of a culture that’s so radically different as somehow lesser than our own.

Would not say he is just on about culture. But pretty sure we dont have detention camps for Muslim or organ harvesting facilities. Its hardly a narrow mind to call out a society whose government is blatantly abusive and suppressing rights elsewhere.

08-04-2020 09:46AM

markodaly wrote: »

As you said, the media and self-appointed experts. They were all over RTE for example, usually of the left-wing variety, the RBB types. They barely stopped short in cheering for Saddam!

People confuse that the ****show that came after Iraq was conquered was somehow down to their military ineptitude, not the political decision making. It's common in these types of debates.

Maybe people do but I'm not. The point remains that Iraq was not, and never was, a genuine risk to the US. Sure, it had some capability to kill Americans depending on how they chose to attack but, there was no expectation of Iraq surviving or enduring a conventional war for long.

The point remains though. The US has not done well in wars since WW2.

What makes you think that? The US as far as I can tell, as zero interest in invading Iran with massive amounts of ground troops and do some nation-building there. It wants regime change of course, but it will want to do it another way, building internal pressure on the regime, rather than go all in.

The American public have zero interest in it either, which is the deciding factor.

Rhetoric coming from their politicians, and the estimates by military experts. The "leaks" to the media of "plans", and that they already have special forces in country. Add to that covid will have weakened them considerably. Plenty of reasons.

Perhaps not a 'formal' alliance but certainly they are friends in the region.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan_Relations_Act

Taiwan also buys plenty of arms from the US, something that annoys the hell out of China.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-48917705

Which is all still just a gesture and doesn't bind the US into defending Taiwan. It simply provides the US with an excuse to have troops stationed there.

I would have thought a mutual defense pact with the US was a good ace to have.

Previously? Sure. Now? Not so much. What do you do when the US is the aggressor?

Also the US no longer has much interest in keeping extensive military tied up in Asia, which means they're reacting to events.... by taking forces from other territories. Again, their force projection capabilities are limited these days, so it's questionable as to whether US forces would arrive in time to be useful in the defense of any of these countries.

I get that individually, one nation will not be able to go toe to toe with China, but that is a dangerous game for China. If they do go ahead and pick on one of the weaker nations, say Vietnam or the Philippines, then alarm bells will ring out across the pacific rim because they know, they could be next.
An alliance of the aforementioned nations would certainly prove a stern test to China, especially with arms backing from the US.

Except that China won't. They gain nothing of value. China want a return to Imperial power, where all of Asia admired the strength and wealth of the Empire. They want to be admired and receive worship. They don't want land that they can't hold. Xinjiang, Tibet, etc have all been harsh lessons in that respect. Taiwan is different. Not taking Taiwan would be the end of the CCP.

The average American or European I doubt cares about this, but with China pushing its weight around in the South China seas and antagonising many countries in the process, and with the rise of Chinese Nationalism, then I can certainly see it eventuating over the next few years or decade that, some mutual defense pack could be signed by many of these nations.

Sure, except they all hate each other. Asian's remember their history and every little hatred. It's definitely possible except, that I don't think it's needed. And they know that.... except for Japan. Japan will always remain a serious target.

China wants a defensive ring. They want territory in which they can create defenses against any aggression. Taiwan punches a whole in any such network, which is why they sought to create island bases.

In peacetimes, those sentiments are all fine when you have student protests and the like. The average Japanese, South Korean, or Taiwanese knows that regardless of what Trump says, the Americans have no interest in conquering or engaging militarily with them. They just want to trade with them and be onside against China.

However, a more aggressive China will certainly bring this perceived anti-western, if it exists, (which is a point over-egged imo) into sharp focus.
Again, the past few years has been interesting and I am certainly hearing a lot of concern in the likes of Australia, Japan and South Korea over Chinese actions in HK and on Universities more locally.

There's little difference between US or Chinese dominance. Both want their culture, and morals to be spread to other countries.

You might be hearing a lot, but most Asians I know or have met, have dismissed HK because they understand that what happened, was always going to happen. HK was land stolen by the British when China was weak, and China isn't weak anymore. What they do within their own territories is of no concern to other Asians... since they would expect the same courtesy extended to them.

It doesnt have to be nukes, it but it could certainly be economic isolation and marking China as a pariah state.
Most states would stay out of it, but for those with skin in the game, in the pacific rim most of them, knowing that they could be next will certainly cater to their primitive interests and side with the power that has the military might, and that is the US.

As an aside, I was listening to RTE radio over the weekend, and there was a general sense that China being the harmless factory of the world appears to be gone. Those days are over and id expect more and more countries to take a harder line with them as a result. If China doubles down, then it will harm them more than anyone else, imo.

I've already addressed the economic aspects, and regarding China being a pariah state. Post has gone on too long already, no point repeating myself.

08-04-2020 09:58AM

declanflynn wrote: »

Ireland is way ahead of China on almost every measure and always will be

Ahh. No desire to actually respond to points made, and have an actual discussion... instead... classic deflection. :rolleyes:

beauf wrote: »

China has a vast navy. It's already in numerous territorial disputes at sea with it's neighbours as it tries to strong arm its neighbours.

https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/navy-ships/a27532437/china-now-has-more-warships-than-the-us/

Your own link shows how inadequate the Chinese navy is... and Japan classified all ship types as destroyers, to bypass the limits of the constitution post WW2, which means they have the best naval force in Asia. Missile ships are the future, which is why everyone is converting to them, and Japan is already there in spades.

Note that even in the piece you quoted, I said the best. Not the largest. The best...

2u2me wrote: »

Because they harvest organs from falon gong practitioners? Or because they are a emerging superpower intent on stealing the worlds intellectual property?
Or is it because they are a communist regime that needs stopping?
Or because they assimilate different cultures, imprison and reeducate millions of muslims?

If it's for those reasons I'm with you; if it's because you're scared of another corona virus outbreak then I've got news for you; it's not restricted to China. You better go find a cave somewhere and start renovating.

Except that Irish people aren't affected by those harvesting organs or IP theft... so they don't really care beyond sitting on some kind of moral outrage that dispels pretty quick when some outrage closer to home appears.

Honestly, I'm doubtful that covid will be enough to get westerners interested enough to stay focused on China for longer than a few months once covid is declining in importance.

2u2me · 08-04-2020 10:18AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Honestly, I'm doubtful that covid will be enough to get westerners interested enough to stay focused on China for longer than a few months once covid is declining in importance.

Agree with you there. But moreso because we're living in a clown world where we're bombarded with 'more important issues'.

Take for example Hollywood, they are only allowed a few big movies into China every year, so all of their big blockbusters praise China highly trying to get into their markets. China are definitely pulling wool over our eyes.

I just find it sad that this is the case China gets all the attention; for the wrong reasons. In the future maybe they can look back and say "Look you all got it wrong- see you must be wrong about everything else"

tobefrank321 · 08-04-2020 10:21AM

The world will watch with interest now what happens in China after lifting of restrictions on Wuhan. Risky move by them, as there could be a large number of asymptomatic spreaders.

tobefrank321 · 08-04-2020 10:24AM

declanflynn wrote: »

Ireland is way ahead of China on almost every measure and always will be

We will always be well ahead on their non existent food standards.

This outbreak has to be a massive wake up call for both the Chinese and the rest of the world around their eating habits and unproven TCM which is devastating rare species.

We cannot go back to the way it was.

2u2me · 08-04-2020 10:26AM

tobefrank321 wrote: »

The world will watch with interest now what happens in China after lifting of restrictions on Wuhan. Risky move by them, as there could be a large number of asymptomatic spreaders.

Let's hope it goes well I'm getting antsy. It seems our own restrictions won't be lifted come friday

the_syco · 08-04-2020 10:54AM

cryptocurrency wrote: »

The same people are lauding it as "spectacular" and "amazing feat of construction" "it's the best".

The Daily Fail comments always have this sort of crap. They're the british version of rednecks.

cryptocurrency wrote: »

China must have made everything up and covered more deaths than the great leap forward.

Does that make you feel better? It can't possibely be the though they just handled a dam sight better. Sure isn't it still 1888.

cryptocurrency wrote: »

I remember when the Chinese built a hospital in about a week, fully plumbed, power, AC...a video emerged online showing a water leak and the daily mail crowd

They worked 24/7 for 10 days with most of the stuff being prefabricated; the Chinese are used to building these buildings on a mass scale, such as for their their reeducation camps.

tobefrank321 wrote: »

The world will watch with interest now what happens in China after lifting of restrictions on Wuhan. Risky move by them, as there could be a large number of asymptomatic spreaders.

All of said hospitals that were built in the beginning of February were closed on 10th March, as they are no longer needed. As of March 27th, there has been a massive increase of cremations. Cremation is an effective way to ensure no-one spreads the virus when the Chinese relax restrictions in Wuhan.

I doubt anyone who had coronavirus symptoms is still alive there.

beauf wrote: »

China has a vast navy. It's already in numerous territorial disputes at sea with it's neighbours as it tries to strong arm its neighbours.

https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/navy-ships/a27532437/china-now-has-more-warships-than-the-us/

I think it has one working aircraft carrier. No doubt more are in production using the American blueprints.

Not sure if they have any stealthy submarines yet. They do have a load of them, but unless you can move silently, you may as well just have a ship.

IAMAMORON · 08-04-2020 10:57AM

If the world had any balls it would sanction the phuck out of the lying bastards.

South Korea spoofed as well.

Total white wash.

Beechwoodspark · 08-04-2020 10:59AM

tobefrank321 wrote: »

We will always be well ahead on their non existent food standards.

This outbreak has to be a massive wake up call for both the Chinese and the rest of the world around their eating habits and unproven TCM which is devastating rare species.

We cannot go back to the way it was.

Dead right.

The thing ppl are saying on this thread is that China will brazenly ignore the concerns UNLESS there is serious serious sanction.

That should take the form of multi billion dollar rolling monthly fines UNTIL they sort out their extremely dangerous and quite frankly disgusting wet markets and wild life meat industry.

declanflynn · 08-04-2020 11:02AM

BanditLuke wrote: »

When all this is said and done the world needs to social distance China from the civilised world.

That will definitely happen, I think almost everyone knows that in order to protect our health, we need to keep them as far away as possible, China exports will be decimated, you could see a famine and a revolution there, I feel a little sorry for the ordinary Chinese peasants

declanflynn · 08-04-2020 11:04AM

2u2me wrote: »

I had a good laugh at this thanks!

For anyone still disputing the numbers of China, how about those of Taiwan? Ther numbers are also very low and their testing is ridiculously good. Their curves followed the same trajectory.

Are they also lying?

Taiwain's response is one of the best globally

Bold bits I added.

I too had a good laugh when I read this one, I didn't think anyone believed the Chinese numbers, open your eyes man.

Beechwoodspark · 08-04-2020 11:05AM

I Have a bit of sympathy for the average joe in China. It’s the CCP where the fault lies.

They should’ve cracked down on wet markets decades ago but no...

The attitude seems to have been “fcuk it twill be grand” mixed with self serving corruption and laziness.

Townton · 08-04-2020 11:05AM

tobefrank321 wrote: »

We will always be well ahead on their non existent food standards.

This outbreak has to be a massive wake up call for both the Chinese and the rest of the world around their eating habits and unproven TCM which is devastating rare species.

We cannot go back to the way it was.

They tried tackling the wet markets before it drove them under ground. Then they let them back. CCP always more concerned with its image then welfare of people.

2u2me · 08-04-2020 11:11AM

declanflynn wrote: »

I too had a good laugh when I read this one, I didn't think anyone believed the Chinese numbers, open your eyes man.

So Taiwain and South Korea are also lying. Anyone who says China is lying must also believe this line. Its quite ridiculous. They're curves follow the same trends and they took similar measures around the same time.

2u2me · 08-04-2020 11:13AM

Townton wrote: »

They tried tackling the wet markets before it drove them under ground. Then they let them back. CCP always more concerned with its image then welfare of people.

Honestly, you think rich people go to these wet markets?

tobefrank321 · 08-04-2020 11:22AM

More evidence of WHO idiocy and bias towards China.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-world-health-organization-gives-the-nod-to-traditional-chinese-medicine-bad-idea/

For more than 2,000 years Chinese healers have used herbal powders and tinctures, dust made from various animal parts and strategically placed needles to treat a host of human ailments. These are used in hundreds of nations globally, but the practice in China is perhaps the most extensive, documented and catalogued. Traditional Chinese medicine (TCM) is based on the concept of qi, a system of energy that flows along meridians in the body to maintain health.
Over the past decade proponents of TCM have worked hard to move it into the mainstream of global health care—and it appears those efforts are coming to fruition. The latest (11th) version of the World Health Organization's list known as the International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems (ICD) will include these remedies for the first time.

A 2018 study in the British Journal of Clinical Pharmacology tested 487 Chinese products taken by sick patients and discovered 1,234 hidden ingredients, including approved and banned Western drugs, drug analogues and animal thyroid tissue. And in 2012 a team led by Megan Coghlan, then at Murdoch University of Australia, identified the DNA sequences in 15 samples of traditional medicines in the form of powders, tablets, capsules, bile flakes and herbal teas. The samples also contained plants that produce toxic chemicals and animal DNA from vulnerable or endangered species (the Asiatic black bear and saiga antelope, for example) and other creatures protected by international laws.

Thus, the proliferation of traditional medicines would have significant environmental impacts on top of the negative health effects. It would contribute to the destruction of ecosystems and increase the illegal trade of wildlife. China announced last October that it was legalizing the controlled trade of rhinoceros horn and tiger bone. (The move was postponed in November, following a global outcry.) Both are believed by practitioners to have the power to cure a range of ailments, from fever to impotence—although no study has found any beneficial outcome of ingesting either. Allowing even the controlled harvest of otherwise endangered creatures will boost illegal poaching, critics say.

2u2me · 08-04-2020 11:23AM

Here is another story counter narrative to all those believing China is lying about their numbers.

You say that the WHO is just a mouthpiece for them, so why would you not look a little deeper yourself into whats happening in Taiwan?

Video adds to Taiwan’s grievances, including accusations health body (WHO) ignored its early virus warnings

Irish Times

They wrote to the WHO on December 31st raising concern about human-to-human transmissions, and while they got a note to confirm their letter had been received they did not receive a response.

Taiwanese officials said they later sent a reminder, and submitted early research findings on an ongoing basis, but their concerns and research were not shared with other countries on WHO platforms as it is not a member.

the_syco · 08-04-2020 11:25AM

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

That should take the form of multi billion dollar rolling monthly fines UNTIL they sort out their extremely dangerous and quite frankly disgusting wet markets and wild life industry.

Wet markets are the Chinese version of farmers markets. People see them as healthier than supermarket food that is from intensive farming, and that the food is fresher.

Townton · 08-04-2020 11:48AM

2u2me wrote: »

Honestly, you think rich people go to these wet markets?

I don't really understand what it is you are asking. Re wet markets the story of trying to regulate them and the troubles the authorities had is relitivly well know to those that know what they are talking about.

declanflynn · 08-04-2020 11:51AM

2u2me wrote: »

So Taiwain and South Korea are also lying. Anyone who says China is lying must also believe this line. Its quite ridiculous. They're curves follow the same trends and they took similar measures around the same time.

can I have chicken in chop suey and egg fried rice

Townton · 08-04-2020 11:51AM

If people want an idea of the WHOs position on tiawan this is an interesting watch. Says a lot reason being is funding.

https://youtu.be/a82ogrzfNM8

declanflynn · 08-04-2020 11:53AM

the_syco wrote: »

Wet markets are the Chinese version of farmers markets. People see them as healthier than supermarket food that is from intensive farming, and that the food is fresher.

Ireland is the number 1 in the world for safe food, even the Chinese know it, look at Chinese imports of Irish food

The Chinese Big Lie

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