The Chinese Big Lie

paleoperson · 05-04-2020 6:13pm

The way this thing is going is it's going to ravage through the world. 70% of people may well end up getting it, they even said the idea is to flatten the curve.

What do you do when a small child is being especially irritating? It's often incredibly easy to just tell them a white lie about what will happen in the future. You say something like "we'll see" when you know full well what's going to happen. It just makes things easier in the long run. Then when the time comes you say "oh, maybe not quite yet, let's wait another while". The same is being done right now by governments, this idea of two weeks was a farce, same with the end of April. The only figures that will show a decrease in numbers over the coming months will be as the conoravirus is systematically attributed to other diseases like pneumonia or cardiovascular events.

Every government is hiding the numbers to some extent or another. A cynic might say that what you're seeing among the headlines and government response is just so that there won't be rioting and mass hysteria as the obituaries run nine times as long as usual.

The people claiming it's all a big hoax and sensationalism by the media and how the governments of the world are inexplicably trying to kill their own economies are acting as useful idiots for the very people they think they're criticizing. People like Ron Paul who stated it the reaction was a "hoax" is acting exactly as the governments and economies of the world wish for him to act. Of course the governments are made of real people who are also afraid (I shudder to think how they would be reacting if it didn't affect them or their families), but on the whole, the system is entirely putting pressure on forcing the economy to continue no matter how may deaths there are.

There'll be updated guidelines on how to diagnose and treat coronavirus and especially on what to enter as cause of death.

skellig_rocks · 05-04-2020 6:16pm

FVP3 wrote: »

If that were true then why would they close the cinemas again?

What are you saying is under-reported? Cases? That is true everywhere. Nobody is testing everybody, not even in Korea or Germany.

So yes that is true. Cases are underestimated.

However how could a death rate that is supposedly much larger ( up to 40 times much larger in some reports) be hidden.

Well judging from the comments posted here, I don't think many people are believing China's figures.

That itself is the problem. Lack of transparency of China made people distrust China. Even if the figures are *real*, China is victim of its own lack of transparency.

FVP3 · 05-04-2020 6:18pm

Wibbs wrote: »

and both had a short shelf life. Fascism lasted not much more than a decade and communism lasted 80 years and kicked off in Russia most strongly because it was throwing off the shackles of mass slavery and near medieval feudalism.

And where is Russia now on the authoritarian stakes? What about other Eastern European States? You posited the claim that Europe has a natural inclination to individualism, but I think that ideology is a thin overlay over much of continental and eastern Europe, and is weak enough in the Nordic countries ( where the curtains always twitch) and in Ireland too. As for fascism and communism being short lived, in the latter case that's because of a major war, and in the former it was longer lived so far than the democracies that came after it, so far. And many of those democracies are reverting to authoritarianism. In the long run of European history democracy or freedom is an outlier. And I see a trend away from free speech or assembly everywhere, including in Britain, which is the only European country where this might have strong cultural, rather than ideological, roots.

China has been a lot more stable in political philosophy and for far longer.

With bouts of major instability. Which is why they fear democracy, they see the application of democracy in Russia, Iraq and the results of the Arab Spring and want no part of that.

05-04-2020 6:19pm

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Also - a poster seems to be saying wet markets should continue as it is cheap food for the poor????!

Nope. I'm asking people to stop making ignorant and naive posts about wet markets.

A poster? You're really going to be that lazy? There is a quote function. Hardly rocket science.

I reject that completely.

Yay! I reject your post completely.

Let China clean house and sort out its domestic food supply without these dreadful wet markets that cause cross species viruses.

Well, wet markets have been in operation in many countries worldwide for a very long time, without causing cross species viruses.

But let's hear some practical and realistic suggestions. How would you close them? What would you replace them with? How would you enforce the change and ensure it stays changed? and how would you pay for it?

Go on. Love to hear a realistic proposal about the shutting down of wet markets considering the number of times they've been shutdown before, and reappeared. Feel free to research the topic and see the problems of Africa or other countries have had in removing them...

4068ac1elhodqr · 05-04-2020 6:35pm

cryptocurrency wrote: »

... that would bankrupt the G7

£3,200,000,000,000 would likely assit the G7 economically, if China delivered it promptly.

Many nations aready said China would have to face some responsibility, or be held to account, for this global pandemic.

Beechwoodspark · 05-04-2020 6:42pm

Klaz I’m not going to quote that long post but to answer you

China is big enough, smart enough, rich enough and developed enough to crack down on wet markets country wide.

They have state surveillance as a norm in their society.

They have all manner of state power to enforce the govt will. This is a one party state remember

So yes It is very realistic to call upon China to end wet markets for ever.

They should have done it decades ago and also traditional medicine should be dumped into the trash can as well. Quackery.

goldbug371 · 05-04-2020 7:03pm

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Klaz I’m not going to quote that long post but to answer you

China is big enough, smart enough, rich enough and developed enough to crack down on wet markets country wide.

They have state surveillance as a norm in their society.

They have all manner of state power to enforce the govt will. This is a one party state remember

So yes It is very realistic to call upon China to end wet markets for ever.

They should have done it decades ago and also traditional medicine should be dumped into the trash can as well. Quackery.

The idea of them banning traditional medicine has absolutely no hope whatsoever. Many Chinese are immensely proud of Chinese medicine and believe it superior to western medicine. It would be like them telling us to ban Guiness.

They could easily ban the wet markets if they wanted to but they won't because they don't want to. They might promise to do that, though and then just not do it. They would never let foreigners tell them how to run their lives in their own country.

paleoperson · 05-04-2020 7:11pm

goldbug371 wrote: »

The idea of them banning traditional medicine has absolutely no hope whatsoever. Many Chinese are immensely proud of Chinese medicine and believe it superior to western medicine. It would be like them telling us to ban Guiness.

They could easily ban the wet markets if they wanted to but they won't because they don't want to. They might promise to do that, though and then just not do it. They would never let foreigners tell them how to run their lives in their own country.

My knowledge of Chinese politics is fairly sparse but I doubt that's the reason. They simply don't want to, like think it's rather nice to have wet markets despite them repeatedly producing viruses that kill millions of people?

A more logical explanation I think is that they really don't have the level of control they claim on these people. Clamping down on them could cause major rioting and revolts and harm right across China. .

05-04-2020 7:19pm

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Klaz I’m not going to quote that long post but to answer you

Your perception of a long post is vastly different than mine.

Yay! An answer. This should be good.

China is big enough, smart enough, rich enough and developed enough to crack down on wet markets country wide.

Big enough? Yup. Massive territory. Huge population, of whom a large percentage are extremely poor, and rely on temp jobs for incomes. Developed enough? Err.. have you ever seen China outside of the main cities? I suspect you haven't.

They have state surveillance as a norm in their society.

No, they don't. My university has security cameras everywhere. In my classes, on the campus, around each of the student dormitories. Yup. All powered down, because they're too expensive to run and maintain. Only the ones near the entrances are active and monitored.

You've bought into the propaganda pieces that say that China is watching everyone. They're not. They would certainly love to, but the logistics and cost involved are beyond them.

They have all manner of state power to enforce the govt will. This is a one party state remember

Actually, there are a number of parties, but yes, a single ruling party. And? That's supposed to mean something?

Let me give you an example. Since I started living there, Beijing has tried to bring in a no smoking ban across the country three times. Each time it has been ignored. The last one is being somewhat enforced within government institutions, but I know many places where the employees/staff continue to smoke. Customers continue to light up in no smoking zones, and will argue successfully against having to stop.. because Beijing is far away, whereas the customers local influence is not.

As for enforcing it... you're really advocating their use of the steel fist? Abusive policing, interning in camps, etc Or perhaps you have some other ideas that are more civilised?

So yes It is very realistic to call upon China to end wet markets for ever.

They should have done it decades ago and also traditional medicine should be dumped into the trash can as well. Quackery.

That wasn't an answer. Fail.

You know I originally came to boards because posters challenged me to research, develop a better posting style, and generally be more logical in my thinking. This "new" version of boards is severely lacking in that respect, except for some more established posters.

Go on. Make an effort. Give me something practical, logical, and doesn't sound like you know nothing about China.

goldbug371 · 05-04-2020 7:22pm

paleoperson wrote: »

My knowledge of Chinese politics is fairly sparse but I doubt that's the reason. They simply don't want to, like think it's rather nice to have wet markets despite them repeatedly producing viruses that kill millions of people?

A more logical explanation I think is that they really don't have the level of control they claim on these people. Clamping down on them could cause major rioting and revolts and harm right across China. .

They have absolute control over their people.

Living in China makes you see things from a completely different angle. They prefer squat public toilets for example as they are seen to be more hygienic. They even complained to me when I put toilet cleaner in the toilet on my business premises. Many public toilets smell as I'm sure you can imagine. I once took my young child to the play area in an upmarket department store. The toilet nearby wreaked - but if you bring it up with them, they'll have a perfectly logical argument as to why this is the correct way. The same goes for the wet markets - the products sold there are seen as the most fresh and thus, have the best flavour. They won't be going anywhere. One thing I have carried on after leaving China is not wearing shoes in the house.

Harry Palmr · 05-04-2020 7:26pm

One thing I have carried on after leaving China is not wearing shoes in the house.

That's just being polite or it ought to be. No one wants scruffy shoe soles treading into the floors

05-04-2020 7:26pm

goldbug371 wrote: »

The idea of them banning traditional medicine has absolutely no hope whatsoever. Many Chinese are immensely proud of Chinese medicine and believe it superior to western medicine. It would be like them telling us to ban Guiness.

It's not just that, although it's part of it. The government has endorsed the use of it, and invested heavily in the establishment of such hospitals or universities. They're not going to shut down all of that.

But also, to them, a variety of it works. I've had it work for me. I've also had it not work. It's very hit & miss... although considering I've had 3 decades of treatment for a shaking disorder, western medicine can very hit & miss too.

They could easily ban the wet markets if they wanted to but they won't because they don't want to. They might promise to do that, though and then just not do it. They would never let foreigners tell them how to run their lives in their own country.

Nope. They could ban them, but enforcing the ban is the real question. You say you've lived a long time in China... surely you know what I mean by that? If you don't.. then, I do wonder where in China you lived.. Taiwan perhaps?

05-04-2020 7:31pm

goldbug371 wrote: »

They have absolute control over their people.

No, they don't. They have massive control over population centers. Their control over people is spotty, and entirely dependent on where, who, and whether they're connected.

Okay. I'm calling into question your experience of China. Gimme some details, because you're pushing the stereotypical rubbish bandied around on the internet, ignoring the realities of actually living there.

Living in China makes you see things from a completely different angle.

Agreed.

They prefer squat public toilets for example as they are seen to be more hygienic.

Which they are. If properly maintained. Less contact between a person and a surface... less passing on of germs, or disease to other people.

goldbug371 · 05-04-2020 7:36pm

Deleted User wrote: »

It's not just that, although it's part of it. The government has endorsed the use of it, and invested heavily in the establishment of such hospitals or universities. They're not going to shut down all of that.

But also, to them, a variety of it works. I've had it work for me. I've also had it not work. It's very hit & miss... although considering I've had 3 decades of treatment for a shaking disorder, western medicine can very hit & miss too.

Nope. They could ban them, but enforcing the ban is the real question. You say you've lived a long time in China... surely you know what I mean by that? If you don't.. then, I do wonder where in China you lived.. Taiwan perhaps?

1 year in Hong Kong
5 years in Taiwan
1 year in Shanghai
11 years in Dalian

As it seems to be getting questioned.

I get what you mean by enforcement, but this comes down to the will of the government. Rules are periodically enforced and then relaxed depending on the mood of the time, or what dignitary is visiting. BUT if they wanted to enforce it all the time, they absolutely could, but they won't. Look how they enforced the lockdown in all areas.

05-04-2020 7:58pm

goldbug371 wrote: »

1 year in Hong Kong
5 years in Taiwan
1 year in Shanghai
11 years in Dalian

As it seems to be getting questioned.

I wouldn't consider either HK or Taiwan as being China simply because the culture and infrastructure is so far above it. But Dalian is a great spot, although Harbin is much better.

I get what you mean by enforcement, but this comes down to the will of the government. Rules are periodically enforced and then relaxed depending on the mood of the time, or what dignitary is visiting. BUT if they wanted to enforce it all the time, they absolutely could, but they won't. Look how they enforced the lockdown in all areas.

How would they enforce it all the time? The lockdown was enforced for a limited period and was accepted by the majority of the population as being necessary. They had enormous public support for the lockdown. The wet markets are different. Throughout China, it's the local government that runs the show, with the Police/PSB/Militia being the prime influences or enforcers. Beijing is far away, and reports can/will be doctored to ensure that compliance is shown, but as with most things in China, there are layers to their behavior.

It's like prostitution. The Government made a huge show about destroying mainstream prostitution in cities. So they were all closed down, raids were done, and the city areas cleaned up. The prostitution simply moved to the outskirts/suburbs, or found a way to become more invisible than before. It still goes on, but not publicly. And that's how the wet markets would be... a show made to say the markets are gone but they would still exist without anyone speaking of it.

Know the hairdressers that turn into a brothel at night when they hand a pink light outside their door? Day time haircut, night time - girls wearing qipao waving from the doors. Ahh China.

Beechwoodspark · 05-04-2020 8:14pm

Ok so klaz you are listing impediments to a ban. I have no reason to quibble with your POV. And experience of living in China.

However I can tell you that if China is hit with rolling multi billion dollar fines from the global community (based on their own reports and not Chinese propaganda) then wet markets will be eradicated.

goldbug371 · 05-04-2020 8:25pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I wouldn't consider either HK or Taiwan as being China simply because the culture and infrastructure is so far above it. But Dalian is a great spot, although Harbin is much better.

How would they enforce it all the time? The lockdown was enforced for a limited period and was accepted by the majority of the population as being necessary. They had enormous public support for the lockdown. The wet markets are different. Throughout China, it's the local government that runs the show, with the Police/PSB/Militia being the prime influences or enforcers. Beijing is far away, and reports can/will be doctored to ensure that compliance is shown, but as with most things in China, there are layers to their behavior.

It's like prostitution. The Government made a huge show about destroying mainstream prostitution in cities. So they were all closed down, raids were done, and the city areas cleaned up. The prostitution simply moved to the outskirts/suburbs, or found a way to become more invisible than before. It still goes on, but not publicly. And that's how the wet markets would be... a show made to say the markets are gone but they would still exist without anyone speaking of it.

Know the hairdressers that turn into a brothel at night when they hand a pink light outside their door? Day time haircut, night time - girls wearing qipao waving from the doors. Ahh China.

The government are out to ensure their survival above all. They would never never enforce it all the time unless it was beneficial to them.

If they wanted to, however, they would conduct a publicity campaign to say that wet markets are unhygienic and patriotic Chinese protect their country by embracing the highest standards of hygiene. In a cashless society, they might then monitor payments to and from anyone suspected of being involved in this trade and adjust their social scores or punish accordingly to deter the black market trade. Although they may not completely eradicate it, they would hugely reduce the trade. I condone none of this totalitarianism by the way, I'm just theorising as to how they would enforce a ban to answer your question. I suppose I have more belief in the power of the CCP than you. I think that ultimately the government don't want to ban the markets.

Prostitution, I have no real knowledge about to be frank. I get my hair cut at home:)

skellig_rocks · 05-04-2020 8:48pm

Ronin247 wrote: »

We all saw what was happening in China in January. The whole world could see it. Maybe the Chinese did try to suppress the initial outbreak news for some sort of jingoistic reason or just plain stupidity, the fact is that the whole world did know about it. So if the Chinese had acted sooner what would America or Europe have done differently?
I could see what was coming down the line for the USA, everyone on the planet could see and yet US government refused to do anything. This isn't anti US or pro China it is a fact. If China had said in December "there is a weird virus going round " what would Trump have done???

The problem is when countries were trying to do something back in January/February, China was not happy:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-02-06/china-lashes-out-at-countries-restricting-travel-over-virus

Beijing is growing increasingly angry at countries imposing harsh travel restrictions on visitors from China as the world tries to contain the spread of a deadly coronavirus.

Authorities have registered “strong objections” with countries who have cut flights to China during the outbreak, foreign ministry spokeswoman Hua Chunying said Thursday. She said countries were ignoring recommendations from the World Health Organization and International Civil Aviation Organization, which have advised against canceling flight routes and limiting travel to affected nations.

“We deplore and oppose those countries who went against WHO’s professional recommendations and ICAO’s bulletins,” Hua said. “Their actions, which sowed panic among the public, will not help prevent and control the epidemic. They have gravely disrupted normal personnel exchanges, international cooperation, and order of the international market for air transportation.”

Her comments are some of China’s harshest words yet for countries including the U.S., Australia and Singapore, which are barring non-resident visitors from mainland China, restricting flights and canceling already-issued visas.

skellig_rocks · 05-04-2020 9:01pm

Deleted User wrote: »

To best of my knowledge,china is country essentially propping up.the US and its insane borrowings??

Would china not just pull the plug and crash.whole world econmy in such a scenario??

Maybe it is also the case of China needs to lend money to US, because of China's massive current account surplus?

fryup · 05-04-2020 9:17pm

goldbug371 wrote: »

1 year in Hong Kong
5 years in Taiwan
1 year in Shanghai
11 years in Dalian

out of interest...do you ever watch Serpentza youtube channel? if so what do think? is he accurate in his views on chinese society?

gastass2 · 05-04-2020 9:18pm

super

bob mcbob · 05-04-2020 9:35pm

FVP3 wrote: »

I am posting to unserious people.

if you want to be taken seriously, then perhaps give some explanation of how we would extract China from the world economy. Specifics.

Easy - apply a tariiff of 30% of everything made in China. Within a very short space of time a lot of the low cost manufacturing for the West would move to Vietnam, etc.

Xi can have complete control behind his Great Wall. I feel sorry for the Chinese people in that situation though.

bob mcbob · 05-04-2020 9:47pm

Deleted User wrote: »

What difference would it have made? At the time that China was stating along with the WHO that the virus was serious, most western countries hadn't imposed any restrictions, except for token gestures.

There were foreign aid/medical workers in China long before the virus reached Italy. Western governments weren't completely reliant on Chinese reports... :rolleyes:

As for the numbers dying, might as well ask how many people died because Trump or Boris dismissed initial claims of the severity of the virus. Nah. We're grand. We will continue to shake hands with people. Yup.

Blaming China for what it did, I get that. But this shifting of everything on to them? Rubbish. I returned to Ireland on January 23rd, and the seriousness of the virus was known very soon after that.. At least, little people like myself knew it was serious... why the excuses for the big boys/gals in western governments who have better resources to find out such information?

And even better, the world has been watching China for years. What about all those resources used to keep tabs on China, and watching/analyzing of Chinese media? I know a variety of companies who do market forecasting, who have departments whose sole purpose to monitor shifts within Chinese media... what about the info they collated?

Maybe a bit before your time but there was a similar view about SARs when it first appeared around 2000. The West mobilised to counter it and it did not get beyond SE Asia. 80K infected and 3K dead.

To me who saw both this looked similar and the numbers the CCP were quoting also looked similar. But we all know it isn't.

This argument that "you should have known what was happening" has been used for a long time from MeToo to the Catholic church's child abuse. It did not wash then and it does not wash now.

goldbug371 · 05-04-2020 10:34pm

fryup wrote: »

out of interest...do you ever watch Serpentza youtube channel? if so what do think? is he accurate in his views on chinese society?

I've followed serpentza since the beer girl days. His videos weren't always so negative towards China. It's sad to see his frustrations with the way things have turned in that past few years really show now in every video.

Personally, I was never that enamoured with the mainland. I loved my time in Taiwan and Hong Kong, but by the time I moved to the mainland (2004) I was past my, I've moved away from home/ I have a new life mentality. During my time there, I didn't really explore all the nooks and crannies of the country as he did (with C-milk), but I do speak read and type Chinese so much that I spoke only to locals rather than the expat community and then mainly employees of mine.

I never got into any trouble and even when the other directors of my business decided to cut me out, I still managed to reverse it on them with the help of all my clients and do that without any legal repercussions. So, it is possible to live there and avoid much of the negativity which he does point out in his videos.

I worked for 10 years and then was told by my local partners they were closing it down the next day due to the government and not to come in, only to take the clients elsewhere the next day and tell them I was leaving China. Rather than showing anger, I invited them to a restaurant twice, bought them a nice meal and thanked them for cooperating with me. My staff (defied the other Chinese directors) and clients all rallied round me and got me back on my feet, and I still have many of the same clients today (five years later.)

So I think Winston sticks his neck out far more than I did, but I like him and his videos. He is genuine but his constant expressing of his opinions will rub the locals up the wrong way especially when using words like 'disgusting' to describe something when it might be better to let the viewer decide on how they feel about the pictures or behaviour he shows.

Much of what he says is how I feel, but was never brave enough to say beyond a couple of close confidants and that was probably to my advantage. So watching his videos is a way for me to vent my frustrations. I'm so lucky my wife thinks the same way as I do, so we don't argue about politics.

fryup · 05-04-2020 10:43pm

goldbug371 wrote: »

I'm so lucky my wife thinks the same way as I do, so we don't argue about politics.

is she chinese?

goldbug371 wrote: »

He is genuine but his constant expressing of his opinions will rub the locals up the wrong way especially when using words like 'disgusting' to describe something when it might be better to let the viewer decide on how they feel about the pictures or behaviour he shows.

but if he's showing a dog being boiled alive...what other word can you use but disgusting..........btw - does that actually happen? is it widespread?

skellig_rocks · 05-04-2020 10:51pm

goldbug371 wrote: »

The government are out to ensure their survival above all. They would never never enforce it all the time unless it was beneficial to them.

If they wanted to, however, they would conduct a publicity campaign to say that wet markets are unhygienic and patriotic Chinese protect their country by embracing the highest standards of hygiene. In a cashless society, they might then monitor payments to and from anyone suspected of being involved in this trade and adjust their social scores or punish accordingly to deter the black market trade. Although they may not completely eradicate it, they would hugely reduce the trade. I condone none of this totalitarianism by the way, I'm just theorising as to how they would enforce a ban to answer your question. I suppose I have more belief in the power of the CCP than you. I think that ultimately the government don't want to ban the markets.

Prostitution, I have no real knowledge about to be frank. I get my hair cut at home:)

As an example, Chinese government has been trying to stop people splitting for nearly 30 years, and yet you would still see people splitting everyday in China. Chinese people (especially older ones) think it is their tradition (from Mao era). And CCP don't care to strictly enforce it (unlike HK or Singapore in the 80s) because splitting is not high in CCP's priority.

It may be too risky politically for Chinese government to ban wet markets altogether. And CCP is not known for taking risky decisions. And I know old folks still loves their early morning trips to web markets.

goldbug371 · 05-04-2020 10:57pm

fryup wrote: »

is she chinese?

but if he's showing a dog being boiled alive...what other word can you use but disgusting..........btw - does that actually happen? is it widespread?

She's Taiwanese which we could never say in China. That's a frustration!

In all my time in China, I never saw a dog being boiled alive but then I never went looking for it as Winston does.

I saw live crocodile in a restaurant once along with all the live crabs, lobsters etc.

The wet markets were not a place that I went although someone did go for us.

I remember my first experience in a mainland restaurant on a quick border crossing from HongKong to Shenzhen 1998. The waitress gave me the menu (all in Chinese) and pointed to a word I, thankfully, had just learned 'squirrell.' '松鼠‘ You'll be pleased to hear, I said no.

I also had snake soup on my first day in HK without even knowing it. My Uncle was trying to shock me. He told me after I had finished two bowls.

I did see animals in cages, dead turtles being sold on the street etc I suppose I just became used to it.

goldbug371 · 05-04-2020 11:00pm

skellig_rocks wrote: »

As an example, Chinese government has been trying to stop people splitting for nearly 30 years, and yet you would still see people splitting everyday in China. Chinese people (especially older ones) think it is their tradition (from Mao era). And CCP don't care to strictly enforce it (unlike HK or Singapore in the 80s) because splitting is not high in CCP's priority.

It may be too risky politically for Chinese government to ban wet markets altogether. And CCP is not known for taking risky decisions. And I know old folks still loves their early morning trips to web markets.

That's another thing that surprised me. People told me that spitting up phlegm was healthy. (not in public, of course)

fryup · 05-04-2020 11:01pm

^^ would you say they are brain-washed? afraid to speak out?

cryptocurrency · 05-04-2020 11:41pm

goldbug371 wrote: »

1 year in Hong Kong
5 years in Taiwan
1 year in Shanghai
11 years in Dalian

As it seems to be getting questioned.

I get what you mean by enforcement, but this comes down to the will of the government. Rules are periodically enforced and then relaxed depending on the mood of the time, or what dignitary is visiting. BUT if they wanted to enforce it all the time, they absolutely could, but they won't. Look how they enforced the lockdown in all areas.

18 years in China???odd what did you possibly do? Don't say english teacher as over 30 that isn't respectable

The Chinese Big Lie

Comments