Masks

paleoperson · 05-04-2020 04:13PM

Yes: surgical

Bob24 wrote: »

If the only point to argue against my post is that “unlikely to be of any benefit” is significantly different advice from saying “useless”, I think it is a fairly weak point (I never said I was quoting the exact wording of the HSE website btw, I was just summarising in a word the general message sent by Irish authorities).

If we leave the linguistic argument aside and stick to the wording of the HSE, “unlikely to be of any benefit” is a fallacious statement in the exact same way as I explained in my post.

It's clearly code for "you're a hysterical idiot if you wear a face mask". Another good one I saw outside my pharmacy is "There is no evidence that wearing a face mask will help prevent getting the virus".... some joke!

JoChervil · 05-04-2020 04:19PM

peasant wrote: »

Here's some research into what is the best material for your home-made masks:

https://smartairfilters.com/en/blog/best-materials-make-diy-face-mask-virus/

Just made summerizing pic from this article to easier to get.

There is no excuse for not wearing it. And everyone can make it. We all have pillow cases or t-shirts. Just cut 20cmx20cm square, make 3 pinches from both sides and attach any thread in the corners. And you don’t even need to sew it, though we all are able to fix a button. But you can use a simple stapler for it and staple pinches and threads from the inside (not to hurt your face later).

And just think, if we all would wear them, so the air would be filtered twice till it get into our lungs,

Fleetwoodmac · 05-04-2020 04:32PM

Manion wrote: »

OK so they didn't say they were useless, that comes from you.

You seem to playing with semantics here... surely people have the critical thinking skills to see the continuous shifting of goalposts throughout the directives given by those supposedly in the know. It's either the masks offer no benefit or they are necessary but required by the frontline staff... which is it..
The onus at this stage should be that we make our own informed decision instead of waiting for directives that seem to be at this stage misguided and bordering on negligence.
Sending front line staff out without the proper equipment is akin to using them as cannon fodder and the indefensible cannot be defended.

twirlagig · 05-04-2020 04:36PM

I have a handheld steamer thing in the back of some press that I bought maybe 2 years ago but never really used...
I am going to try get a few masks tomorrow if I can...
Would something like this be effective on masks? They must reach higher temperatures than washing machines?

Fleetwoodmac · 05-04-2020 04:47PM

twirlagig wrote: »

I have a handheld steamer thing in the back of some press that I bought maybe 2 years ago but never really used...
I am going to try get a few masks tomorrow if I can...
Would something like this be effective on masks? They must reach higher temperatures than washing machines?

30 mins in oven at 70° has been directive given to hse staff ... may be easier than steamer

JoChervil · 05-04-2020 04:50PM

twirlagig wrote: »

I have a handheld steamer thing in the back of some press that I bought maybe 2 years ago but never really used...
I am going to try get a few masks tomorrow if I can...
Would something like this be effective on masks? They must reach higher temperatures than washing machines?

If you can't get a mask, just make a cotton mask. Then you can simply iron them. Cotton can be ironed on high enough setting

Professor Moriarty · 05-04-2020 04:51PM

twirlagig wrote: »

I have a handheld steamer thing in the back of some press that I bought maybe 2 years ago but never really used...
I am going to try get a few masks tomorrow if I can...
Would something like this be effective on masks? They must reach higher temperatures than washing machines?

If you have a few masks and you are going to reuse them, keep them in the shed and use them every three days. No need to sanitise.

twirlagig · 05-04-2020 05:02PM

Fleetwoodmac wrote: »

30 mins in oven at 70° has been directive given to hse staff ... may be easier than steamer

I only know that one time I used it I stupidly thought ‘it can’t be that hot’... had a burn blister on my finger after for days.
The few masks that seem available are to me kinda paper like / slash cardboard-ish. I’m not putting anything into the oven now apart from
food.

twirlagig · 05-04-2020 05:07PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

If you have a few masks and you are going to reuse them, keep them in the shed and use them every three days. No need to sanitise.

Thanks PM.... I don’t have a shed....
Do you remember that song from yonks ago?
Living in a box by Living in a box?
That’s me

dublin99 · 05-04-2020 05:09PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

If you have a few masks and you are going to reuse them, keep them in the shed and use them every three days. No need to sanitise.

Most important is the way you put on/take off mask.

Sanitise hands BEFORE putting on mask and press down on wire strip around nose.

Adjust. Stretch over nose and pull over chin to get good seal. Do not touch mask/face while out.

Sanitise hands before removing mask. Use the straps/ties. Do not touch the outside (can be contaminated).

Dispose of or store mask (I put the ffp2 respirator in a clean ziplock after a quick 30 minutes use in shop. In Asia people put surgicals masks in clean A4 envelope or ziplock say during meals.)

Sanitise hands again AFTER removing mask.

paleoperson · 05-04-2020 05:09PM

Yes: surgical

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

If you have a few masks and you are going to reuse them, keep them in the shed and use them every three days. No need to sanitise.

Sounds like a reasonable idea as the virus should start to disintegrate after a few days. If you had a rotation of them such as one for every day you might be doing fairly well. On most surfaces it's supposed to disintegrate rapidly. Exposure to UV light should also be helpful. Obviously still far from ideal though or health services would be doing it all the time. I wonder if it could be that the virus would live longer suspended in the mask threads than on a surface.

Remember the virus is far smaller than the mask filter. Even a perfectly fitted mask probably will not stop many or maybe most particles from getting through, but they certainly stop some percentage that are in water vapour.

Fleetwoodmac · 05-04-2020 05:12PM

twirlagig wrote: »

I only know that one time I used it I stupidly thought ‘it can’t be that hot’... had a burn blister on my finger after for days.
The few masks that seem available are to me kinda paper like / slash cardboard-ish. I’m not putting anything into the oven now apart from
food.

Perhaps they were referring to n95s..

2u2me · 05-04-2020 05:17PM

paleoperson wrote: »

Remember the virus is far smaller than the mask. Even a perfectly fitted mask probably will not stop many or maybe most particles from getting through, but they certainly stop some percentage.

I believe they do stop most of the transmission of viral load by stopping the biggest of particles especially in interactions with others. You need a larger quantity of the aerosolized particles that can get through masks to get infected. Viral load matters apparently.

Your eyes though are still pretty exposed, so getting the best super duper mask going is pretty pointless unless you also opt for the protective eye wear.

Bob24 · 05-04-2020 05:20PM

paleoperson wrote: »

Remember the virus is far smaller than the mask filter.

This is correct, but from what I have read it isn’t really a concern because the virus itself doesn’t tend to flow freely in the air but is almost always attach to particles which are easily blocked by the mask (tiny saliva/water droplets, tiny dust particles, etc).

Now I haven’t studied this in details ... but I think this is a convincing explanation of why correctly fitted FFP2/FFP3 masks can be considered very efficient at preventing contamination through the nose and mouth (of course our eyes are another path which is not covered by a mask so the mask itself doesn’t offer complete protection, but it significantly reduces the chances of contamination and can be considered near 100% protective when used in combination with goggles tightly fitted full body protection).

paleoperson · 05-04-2020 05:23PM

Yes: surgical

2u2me wrote: »

I believe they do stop most of the transmission of viral load by stopping the biggest of particles especially in interactions with others. You need a larger quantity of the aerosolized particles that can get through masks to get infected. Viral load matters apparently.

Your eyes though are still pretty exposed, so getting the best super duper mask going is pretty pointless unless you also opt for the protective eye wear.

Bob24 wrote: »

This is correct, but from what I have read it isn’t really a concern because the virus itself doesn’t tend to flow freely in the air but is almost always attach to particles which are easily blocked by the mask (tiny saliva/water droplets, tiny dust particles, etc).

Now I haven’t studied this in details ... but I think this is a convincing explanation of why correctly fitted FFP2/FFP3 masks can be considered very efficient at preventing contamination through the nose and mouth (of course our eyes are another path which is not covered by a mask).

I was going to wear my old student chemistry lab eye protection but I had a look around outside the shop and I couldn't see anyone even wearing a mask. I started thinking that it might only be a tiny help and it could attract hooligans which though incredibly unlikely might be a bigger risk, I was also conscious of stares. I'm kicking myself now that I didn't wear them though as they do help - as can be seen from the mask the fact that others aren't doing it or the authorities don't advise it is not much of a guide to go on. Bob24 I disagree about "near 100%" though, only a hazmat suit with proper spraying off after use could be considered as 100%.

iamwhoiam · 05-04-2020 05:29PM

dublin99 wrote: »

Most important is the way you put on/take off mask.

Sanitise hands BEFORE putting on mask and press down on wire strip around nose.

Adjust. Stretch over nose and pull over chin to get good seal. Do not touch mask/face while out.

Sanitise hands before removing mask. Use the straps/ties. Do not touch the outside (can be contaminated).

Dispose of or store mask (I put the ffp2 respirator in a clean ziplock after a quick 30 minutes use in shop. In Asia people put surgicals masks in clean A4 envelope or ziplock say during meals.)

Sanitise hands again AFTER removing mask.

How long would you need to leave in the zip lock before using again ? Would you wipe the mask down with a anti bac wipe before putting in the bag ?

Bob24 · 05-04-2020 05:34PM

paleoperson wrote: »

Bob24 I disagree about "near 100%" though, only a hazmat suit with proper spraying off after use could be considered as 100%.

Yes, I am referring to someone wearing a sealed full body protective kit which includes many different parts and would take at least 15 minutes to put on if fitted properly by a professional when I say near 100% protection. I.e. quite a bit tighter protection than our hospital workers are wearing at the moment. There are too many posts for me to find it again, but there was time lapse video of a Chinese nurse fitting the gear on the main Covid-19 thread at some point.

I would have to look it up but I think there were studies showing that if fitted properly this kind of setup was only allowing very, very, few transmissions to frontline medical staff (and that high rate of transmission is usually caused by the lack of full protective gear or improper fitting of the gear).

I think we are saying the same thing?

Bob24 · 05-04-2020 05:38PM

iamwhoiam wrote: »

How long would you need to leave in the zip lock before using again ? Would you wipe the mask down with a anti bac wipe before putting in the bag ?

Ideally 3 days, but at the very least one day. I wouldn't wipe the mask at the risk of damaging it, as anyway if it has virus on it the idea is that the "quarantine" period in the bag will kill it.

And this is just my view but I wouldn’t fully seal the ziplock immediately after pitting the mask inside. It will be slightly humid from your breathing through it and IMO you kind want it dry up a bit rather than let the humidity ferment in a seal bag for days.

Manion · 05-04-2020 05:51PM

Fleetwoodmac wrote: »

You seem to playing with semantics here... surely people have the critical thinking skills to see the continuous shifting of goalposts throughout the directives given by those supposedly in the know. It's either the masks offer no benefit or they are necessary but required by the frontline staff... which is it..
The onus at this stage should be that we make our own informed decision instead of waiting for directives that seem to be at this stage misguided and bordering on negligence.
Sending front line staff out without the proper equipment is akin to using them as cannon fodder and the indefensible cannot be defended.

Not really semantics, just a case of me pointing out that youre taking one statement, flipping it, increasing intensity and extrapolating. Furthermore presenting a binary spectrum of positions and a clear "if this than that" logical which isn't very critical.

Like I don't think you're wrong, I just think how you've arrived at your conclusions and the strength of your absolute belief scary. I see it repeated over and over in this crisis.

There is some good advice on this thread, there is all so a lot of conjecture, racism, and conspiracy theories. Anyway at this stage it doesn't matter, I can see the mask topic is one of those us or them things now.

Bob24 · 05-04-2020 05:55PM

Manion wrote: »

youre taking one statement, flipping it, increasing intensity and extrapolating. Furthermore presenting a binary spectrum of positions and a clear "if this than that" logical which isn't very critical.

Just saying, but isn't it rather what you are doing below in the way you describe the thread? I admittedly haven't read every single post in the thread but at least on the last few pages I don't really see "a lot" (if any) of what you are describing. In particular, if there is genuine racism I am have full faith in the mods to address it, but which specific posts are you referring to?

Manion wrote: »

There is some good advice on this thread, there is all so a lot of conjecture, racism, and conspiracy theories. Anyway at this stage it doesn't matter, I can see the mask topic is one of those us or them things now.

iamwhoiam · 05-04-2020 06:01PM

Bob24 wrote: »

Ideally 3 days, but at the very least one day. I wouldn't wipe the mask at the risk of damaging it, as anyway if it has virus on it the idea is that the "quarantine" period in the bag will kill it.

And this is just my view but I wouldn’t fully seal the ziplock immediately after pitting the mask inside. It will be slightly humid from your breathing through it and IMO you kind want it dry up a bit rather than let the humidity ferment in a seal bag for days.

Thank you . Our masks are cotton we made them ourselves

Fleetwoodmac · 05-04-2020 06:21PM

Manion wrote: »

Very condescending. Good case in point of people jumping to conclusions and hearing what they want. I wrote one thing but you read a lot into it that wasn't there.

Not sure the government ever stated they where useless. Pretty certain the advise was that you don't need to use them to use them if not sick. I also think people are in general not capably of understanding complex messaging and that things are changing and the advise is evolving with. Much rather attribute maliciousness or incompetently as thats easy. I won't think any less of them if the advise is updated to recommend and later make mandatory the wearing of masks. I'd assume we've reached a point where thats the best guidance.

Remember in the first weeks of this when the advise was everyone with any symptom get tested and we had 96% of those tested coming back negative while frontline medical staff were waiting over a week for an appointment. The advise changed on testing so it was more targeted. It was the right decision even with obvious shortcomings.

I've no desire to get into a you said this, I said that but you speak of people not understanding complex messaging... seriously, let's not overcomplicate things here. Are the masks effective in preventing the acquiring and spread of covid... people aren't looking for anything more complex than that. And implying that we the general public can't grasp this message is indeed condescending....I don't think anyone on this thread is implying malice but undoubtedly we can see ineptitude in the directives given. If the experts are confused themselves, then they should refrain from giving misguided advice.
Don't use them unless we are sick... misguided given the asymptomatic cases that have been documented internationally.

Manion · 05-04-2020 06:23PM

Bob24 wrote: »

Just saying, but isn't it rather what you are doing below in the way you describe the thread? I admittedly haven't read every single post in the thread but at least on the last few pages I don't really see "a lot" (if any) of what you are describing. In particular, if there is genuine racism I am have full faith in the mods to address it, but which specific posts are you referring to?

I can only conclude you've read the posts and decided they were not problematic.

Bob24 · 05-04-2020 06:26PM

Manion wrote: »

I can only conclude you've read the posts and decided they were not problematic.

Well you'd have to be more specific. For exemple you are saying that in your opinion there is racism on this thread which is a serious allegation and I am sure will be addressed if it is the case. Which particular post(s) are you referring to and have you reported them?

cnocbui · 05-04-2020 06:34PM

2u2me wrote: »

I believe they do stop most of the transmission of viral load by stopping the biggest of particles especially in interactions with others. You need a larger quantity of the aerosolized particles that can get through masks to get infected. Viral load matters apparently.

Your eyes though are still pretty exposed, so getting the best super duper mask going is pretty pointless unless you also opt for the protective eye wear.

I may well be wrong, but my understanding is that the virus' molecular key targets a match with ACE-2 receptors, which are mostly found in the back of the nose - hence the unpleasant swab - and in the aveoli deep in the lungs.

Keying with this receptor is what tricks the cell wall into lowering it's guard and allows the virus to inject it's RNA for replication. Unless eyes have ACE-2 receptors, I suspect the virus might not have a great prospect for entering the body via that route and making it's way to the lungs before some element of the immune system asks it for it's credentials.

spookwoman · 05-04-2020 06:38PM

No: I don't care enough

On another note would be ideal if you could wash your coat/clothes and hair after being in the supermarket. Ref hair option would be hat even a swim hat would be ideal as you can throw it in a basin with disinfectant.

Bob24 · 05-04-2020 06:41PM

cnocbui wrote: »

I may well be wrong, but my understanding is that the virus' molecular key targets a match with ACE-2 receptors, which are mostly found in the back of the nose - hence the unpleasant swab - and in the aveoli deep in the lungs.

Keying with this receptor is what tricks the cell wall into lowering it's guard and allows the virus to inject it's RNA for replication. Unless eyes have ACE-2 receptors, I suspect the virus might not have a great prospect for entering the body via that route and making it's way to the lungs before some element of the immune system asks it for it's credentials.

I am not a doctor either and we are all trying to figure this out as we go, but it says here: "once contaminated, hands can transfer the virus to your eyes, nose or mouth. From there, the virus can enter your body and can make you sick.".

What I understand is that you can get contaminated through your eyes but the nose and mouth are definitely the largest contamination vector (as per your explanation).

cnocbui · 05-04-2020 06:49PM

Bob24 wrote: »

I am not a doctor either and we are all trying to figure this out as we go, but it says here: "once contaminated, hands can transfer the virus to your eyes, nose or mouth. From there, the virus can enter your body and can make you sick.".

What I understand is that you can get contaminated through your eyes but the nose and mouth are definitely the largest contamination vector (as per your explanation).

Sorry, did you just link to the WHO?
:rolleyes:;)

cnocbui · 05-04-2020 06:56PM

On further reading it certainly may be possible, though it is unclear:

According to the South China Morning Post , Wang thinks the virus entered his left eye because he wasn’t wearing protective eyewear.

Dr. Jan Evans Patterson, professor of medicine and pathology in the Long School of Medicine’s infectious diseases division at UT Health San Antonio, confirms that a scenario like Wang’s could potentially happen.

In Wang’s situation, she says, respiratory droplets from an infected person might have reached his eyes or other mucous membranes.

Generally, though, transmission of COVID-19 comes with so many unknowns that it’s “plausible but unlikely” to contract it through hand-to-eye contact, says Dr. Stephen Thomas , chief of infectious diseases at SUNY Upstate Medical University in Syracuse, New York.

https://www.allaboutvision.com/conditions/coronavirus-and-your-eyes/

So eyes may be a risk factor but one with low probability.

Seanergy · 05-04-2020 07:11PM

Yes: valved

There's been afew request's for a boards driven grassroots community effort in this COVID19 masks thread.

The coming soon page will be down on www.diymasks.ie for boards.ie members until 9 tonight.

I know this platform has oddels of inhouse cross disipline knowledge and know how that can expediate our efforts to make a difference to this pandemic.

Masks

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