The Chinese Big Lie

FVP3 · 05-04-2020 4:12pm

Yea, because China did not spend a penny the past few months? Give me a break

Less than the West will have to, as it locked down fully only in Wuhan.

Do you belive the 'offical' numbers? I do not, especially when many foreign journalists have been expelled from the country.
Put simply we do not know for sure the extent of what happened or what is happening in China. It may look worse in the west but that is because in the west there is generally open and transparent government and press. In China you habe none of those things. If you want to believe the official line from the CCP, then go ahead and make a fool of yourself.

Yes, I do. In fact they were rarely disputed until the US numbers overtook the Chinese numbers. Also if what happened in Wuhan didn't work, what will work?

Yes, lots of industrial capacity where they can sell to themselves once other people don't want to do business with them. You can have as many factories as you want, but its useless if no one wants to buy your stuff.

This is where you are going to be specific about who these "other people" are, and why an organisation like BRICS, or their Asian neighbours, or indeed American manufacturers would get this to work.

05-04-2020 4:12pm

skellig_rocks wrote: »

I think no one are expecting financial compensation will come to fruition. However it would generate public attention and bad publicity which China hates. China and Chinese people hates losing "faces".

You're a foreigner. You have no face. They're not losing face to us, because we are not worthy of respect. On the individual level, that can change but on a national level? We're barbarians.

China expects bad publicity from the West. When has it ever received glorious praise? So.. you'd be achieving nothing.

I worry China are actually going backward since Xi became President. His policies on Xijiang, Hong Kong, Taiwan and internal controls are some worrying trends. It is not helpful that he helped himself to become president for life after changing the Chinese Constitution in 2018.]

Ahh well, I've never bought into that Idea that China has moved past Mao... They've just done a PR campaign, but at it's core, it's still a brutal regime with no respect for life.

Xi is tied to the military. He promised them Taiwan, so that will need to happen soon, since the diplomatic option is completely unworkable. China has been modernizing it's military for decades, especially under Xi, and there will be desires to show the world that they can stand up to the other powers.

As for Xijiang, any population that resists Chinese rule is firmly crushed. That's been the trend forever, and it's never changed. And HK? Exactly what I expected to happen. The PRC have never held to past agreements, and HK is considered sacred soil to them, stolen by the British. Once more, resistance to the party line must be squashed.

As you said in previous posts few weeks ago. You probably will notice anti-foreigners sentiment increase in the near future.

Anti-foreigner sentiment has always been there. Overt/direct expression of it is rare, but, yes, I expect to see far more of it when I return.

It's one of the reasons I despise those ranting on the internet. And I'm not talking about Chinese netcitizens, although they're a pack of morons too.

FVP3 · 05-04-2020 4:15pm

markodaly wrote: »

If this is a serious topic, about China, then why in gods name are you bringing up native American genocide as a way to shield China's own war crimes when it comes to their own attempts at Genocide and ethnic cleansing?

A classic case of whataboutery.

Because somebody else mentioned the supposed genocides of Chinese imperialism, I merely pointed out the US was the greatest genocidal nation in the 19C, far surpassing all European empires.

Its an aside to the main argument.

Please tell me how you are going to extract China from the world economy.

FVP3 · 05-04-2020 4:16pm

Deleted User wrote: »

It's one of the reasons I despise those ranting on the internet. And I'm not talking about Chinese netcitizens, although they're a pack of morons too.

Why are you going back to such a horrible place, by your own reckoning.

BanditLuke · 05-04-2020 4:20pm

FVP3 wrote: »

What's the obsession with China in the 19th C? Of course it was an empire in its history, but largely destroyed and controlled by Western adventurism ( and in the case of the British -- drug pushing) by mid 19C. A rebellion against this saw a motley crew of European colonial powers advance into the country raping and looting it.

The real genocidal colonialism of the 19C was the American Empire's movement West into native american territory.

Start a thread on it if you feel so strongly about it.

This is about the ruteless CCP.

markodaly · 05-04-2020 4:21pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Europe needs to step away from the US, and make friends with Russia. They're the natural ally in all this, along with making connections with all the "lesser" nations worldwide. Step away from the US and China, because we shouldn't become dependent on either. They will have a war or a series of wars within our lifetimes. If China doesn't start one, the US will find an excuse.

I would not disagree with you about the US wanting to be the guy with the biggest bat when it comes to any negotiations, but the EU making friends with Russia and Putin? Christ, going from the saucepan to the fire. This is a country who anxed a portion of the Ukraine not so many years ago.

Sorry, but the US, warts and all are better than Russia.

The US is not what it once was.

Perhaps, but the Western Liberal order is still stronger than what China can produce at the moment. To take one example where do the best and brightest Chinese students study? In American Ivy league colleges. Sure Xi's daughter went to Harvard.

These things still matter.

Once the best of the West are studying in China, then we can proclaim the west to be dead.

05-04-2020 4:25pm

2u2me wrote: »

I do question everything that comes out of China, and in this specific circumstance they past my test of scrutiny.

I would accept any kind of evidence. With the amount of people here sure that China are fudging their numbers I'd expect to see something. Second hand conjecture from an urn delivery driver is just not enough for me.
As previously stated by another poster VPNs are widely used in China they cannot suppress something of this magnitutude. Bill Clinton couldn't suppress an affair in the 90s.

They have too much to lose and too little to gain by lying about their numbers IMO. Their numbers also align with other countries in the region.

Well, first off VPN access is very spotty. I could get on one day and be unable to connect for a week after. Especially during their security council meetings. The PRC has the ability to seriously hamper the use of VPNs should they really be bothered to do so.

Secondly, most people don't know anything. Just like here. Personal knowledge is extremely limited... with most people referring to articles online.... and if someone did claim personal knowledge, the nature of the internet, makes it a very high chance of you being dismissed...

Third, with movement being restricted there's less chance to see anything beyond your own little area.

And lastly, releasing unofficial information is treason. China has active anti-spying campaigns... few people will want to be charged with treason. Considering the range of spyware in all electronics, and their ability to manage internet connections, most people would be too afraid to say anything... regardless of the reality of being traced, the fear is enough. A reasonable fear in my book, if you're Chinese. As for expats, at the best of times, their view of China is rather limited... now? even more so.

markodaly · 05-04-2020 4:27pm

FVP3 wrote: »

Less than the West will have to, as it locked down fully only in Wuhan.

And you know this how?

The fact is you do not, no one does.
Now stop posting made up opinions as fact.

Yes, I do.

Then you are a fool to believe the CCP and their 'official' numbers.
Did you also believe annual potato yield in 1977 Soviet Russia? :pac:

This is where you are going to be specific about who these "other people" are, and why an organisation like BRICS, or their Asian neighbours, or indeed American manufacturers would get this to work.

The BRIS have enough to worry about themselves than being aligned to China. This Virus is going to have a bigger impact in those countries than the West. Just look at the South Africa Rand and the Brazillian Real the past few months.

05-04-2020 4:30pm

FVP3 wrote: »

Less than the West will have to, as it locked down fully only in Wuhan.

Yes, I do. In fact they were rarely disputed until the US numbers overtook the Chinese numbers. Also if what happened in Wuhan didn't work, what will work?

This is where you are going to be specific about who these "other people" are, and why an organisation like BRICS, or their Asian neighbours, or indeed American manufacturers would get this to work.

The chinese numbers don't make sense from an infection point of view. I don't believe them. It's got a handle on the virus too quickly for those numbers to be realistic.

05-04-2020 4:32pm

FVP3 wrote: »

Why are you going back to such a horrible place, by your own reckoning.

I have a contract for employment, and I never break contracts. Personal morality.

Although more importantly, I have a Chinese girlfriend, and I'm missing her. Simple as that really.

Don't get me wrong. I'm near my end with living in China. Not for the reasons that are thrown around on boards, but I've grown weary of the Chinese mindset.

And it's not a horrible place. In many ways, I prefer it to living in Ireland or many other countries I've lived in. I enjoy the lifestyle, and most people I meet are great. Don't judge China by what you read on the internet. Most of those posters haven't spent any extensive time there or have just been there as a tourist. China and Chinese people can be fantastic.. which is why I've stayed there for 11 years... when I could have stayed/returned to Japan or S.Korea.

2u2me · 05-04-2020 4:37pm

Deleted User wrote: »

[...]As for expats, at the best of times, their view of China is rather limited... now? even more so.

I do see what you're saying but if everyone's view is so limited, how do half the world know the chinese are lying when there is no proof on the table?

Also it would only take 1 chinese person that really knows to speak out about it. As we learned with the doctor that broke this story there are heros willing to speak out if it is important enough.

It's like convicting someone of murder just because they had motive to do it. Motive alone does not make a crime. We need something more tangible.
I guess we can't know for sure right now, but the more time that passes and as no new information gets released the less probable that there was any kind of coverup of the numbers of dead.

05-04-2020 4:43pm

markodaly wrote: »

I would not disagree with you about the US wanting to be the guy with the biggest bat when it comes to any negotiations, but the EU making friends with Russia and Putin? Christ, going from the saucepan to the fire. This is a country who anxed a portion of the Ukraine not so many years ago.

And I wouldn't have any issue with Russia retaking all their national territories going back to pre-WW2 borders. As I said people are selfish, and don't really care. I'm one of those people too.

Russia would be an ally of equality. There isn't a huge disparity in strength. There is with the US.

Sorry, but the US, warts and all are better than Russia.

The US under Bill Clinton, or prior presidents? Sure. But American politics have shifted dramatically, and I wouldn't want Europe allied to any of them anymore.

Perhaps, but the Western Liberal order is still stronger than what China can produce at the moment. To take one example where do the best and brightest Chinese students study? In American Ivy league colleges. Sure Xi's daughter went to Harvard.

I've taught in Peiking University and Shanghai International Studies University. They're damn good universities. The rest of China is pretty iffy to downright awful... but there are many great minds in China produced within Chinese universities.

Chinese people tend to study abroad for the prestige involved and the expectation that foreign education is better. However, in the last five years, we've seen many Chinese students return complaining about how bad their universities were. Western universities are not the bastions of quality anymore... and Harvard tends to rely on it's reputation rather than improving it's overall standards. I've had conversations with visiting professors from Harvard who complain about how far standards have dropped, and the politics going on. So... nah. Referring to US education just reinforces the point that they're not what they once were... although originally, I was referring to their military. They're not prepared to wage war with a country of comparable size... oh, they'd tear China to pieces, but they'd be mauled in return. And that's ignoring the risks of nukes being used, which neither side have effective counters for.

Once the best of the West are studying in China, then we can proclaim the west to be dead.

Ahh but I never said the west was dead. I said that the US was not what it once was. There is a major difference.

05-04-2020 4:50pm

2u2me wrote: »

I do see what you're saying but if everyone's view is so limited, how do half the world know the chinese are lying when there is no proof on the table?

You want to take two different things and apply the same standard to them. Nope. Don't agree.

Also it would only take 1 chinese person that really knows to speak out about it. As we learned with the doctor that broke this story there are heros willing to speak out if it is important enough.

Sure. And where is that doctor now? Exactly. Enough said. Although, you might want to track down what happened to his family.... they're not going to be treated as heroes. Everyone should be honest and outspoken, when it's not their family under threat...

It's like convicting someone of murder just because they had motive to do it. Motive alone does not make a crime. We need something more tangible.
I guess we can't know for sure right now, but the more time that passes and as no new information gets released the less probable that there was any kind of coverup of the numbers of dead.

There's never going to be anything tangible... people are basing this on past behavior... or personal understanding of Chinese culture. I live there. That's what I'm basing this on. My own understanding of how Beijing and Chinese people behave in general.

Wibbs · 05-04-2020 5:02pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Ahh but I never said the west was dead. I said that the US was not what it once was. There is a major difference.

+1000

2u2me · 05-04-2020 5:05pm

Deleted User wrote: »

My own understanding of how Beijing and Chinese people behave in general.

Well if we're all laying our cards on the table I'm giving you my understanding as a person who is 1/4 chinese as my grandfather fled there during the war to Thailand.

What would be the reason for them to alter the number of dead and to what magnitude? Double? 10x? 100x?
To appease their citizens?

Now consider what they risk with altering these numbers.

05-04-2020 5:10pm

2u2me wrote: »

Well if we're all laying our cards on the table I'm giving you my understanding as a person who is 1/4 chinese as my grandfather fled there during the war to Thailand.

Have you lived or spent time in mainland China? Not dismissing your opinions. Btw. but it's a lot like Americans coming over here to explain the North to us, even though they've never stepped foot in Ireland before. I don't put much stock in ethnic associations... personal experience is king.

What would be the reason for them to alter the number of dead and to what magnitude? Double? 10x? 100x?
To appease their citizens?

Fear. Social instability. Social instability or unrest is a major risk to the PRC.

And more importantly... this virus is still here. It's still early days.

Now consider what they risk with altering these numbers.

They risk nothing because to their people, the party line is the real line.

jmreire · 05-04-2020 5:18pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I have a contract for employment, and I never break contracts. Personal morality.

Although more importantly, I have a Chinese girlfriend, and I'm missing her. Simple as that really.

Don't get me wrong. I'm near my end with living in China. Not for the reasons that are thrown around on boards, but I've grown weary of the Chinese mindset.

And it's not a horrible place. In many ways, I prefer it to living in Ireland or many other countries I've lived in. I enjoy the lifestyle, and most people I meet are great. Don't judge China by what you read on the internet. Most of those posters haven't spent any extensive time there or have just been there as a tourist. China and Chinese people can be fantastic.. which is why I've stayed there for 11 years... when I could have stayed/returned to Japan or S.Korea.

This is true of most Countrys,,their public image is about as far removed as possible from the "real" thing, the on the ground experience of actually working and living in that Country, and interacting with the people. It has been my experience that most citizens have healthy disrespect for their "elected Representatives", no matter how much "kow-towing" goes on in public.

Away With The Fairies · 05-04-2020 5:21pm

https://youtu.be/bpQFCcSI0pU

I'm so sick watching this. People have went missing because they spoke up.

Seriously, will the truth come out eventually, is it from a wet market or the lab?

2u2me · 05-04-2020 5:23pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Fear. Social instability. Social instability or unrest is a major risk to the PRC.
And more importantly... this virus is still here. It's still early days.

They risk nothing because to their people, the party line is the real line.

I'm sorry but your story just doesn't add up. Why would they have reported any of the figures that they have? Why just report some of them at all? Why release the genome to the world in January?
Do you really expect them to be hiding let's saying 100,000 dead?

Going about it half assed doesn't seem like it has any effect on the morale of its public. E.g. News of 10,000 dead instead of 3,000 doesn't really have any relevence on that news.

This still belongs in conspiracy until some sort of evidence comes to light.

bob mcbob · 05-04-2020 5:23pm

FVP3 wrote: »

it is true but it's hardly up to the Chinese to stop flights into Europe and the US. Its the other way around, and the US did that in late Jan, about the only sensible thing that Trump has done.

Due to the secrecy in China, Europe and the USA had no idea how bad it was. Only CCP did. The knew exactly how bad it was by closing their internal borders.

Wonder how many people died as a result of this.

2u2me · 05-04-2020 5:27pm

Away With The Fairies wrote: »

Seriously, will the truth come out eventually, is it from a wet market or the lab?

Scientists firmly believe the wet lab to be the origin.

It's like we found a completely new weapon, instead of a repurposed existing one.

This evidence for natural evolution was supported by data on SARS-CoV-2's backbone -- its overall molecular structure. If someone were seeking to engineer a new coronavirus as a pathogen, they would have constructed it from the backbone of a virus known to cause illness. But the scientists found that the SARS-CoV-2 backbone differed substantially from those of already known coronaviruses and mostly resembled related viruses found in bats and pangolins.

Source

FVP3 · 05-04-2020 5:59pm

2u2me wrote: »

I'm sorry but your story just doesn't add up. Why would they have reported any of the figures that they have? Why just report some of them at all? Why release the genome to the world in January?
Do you really expect them to be hiding let's saying 100,000 dead?

Going about it half assed doesn't seem like it has any effect on the morale of its public. E.g. News of 10,000 dead instead of 3,000 doesn't really have any relevence on that news.

This still belongs in conspiracy until some sort of evidence comes to light.

The fact that the chinese did in fact report plenty of deaths and exponential increases in numbers at the beginning and then engaged in a draconian authoritarian lockdown which was much more aggressive than the west, would seem to lend credence to the idea that their figures are correct.

Also the relaxation of the lockdown led to increased cases, also reported, so the Chinese did what they had to do and locked down the cinemas again.

The frenzy about China lying began on the very day the US figures exceeded the Chinese ones, its a reaction by US intelligence.

05-04-2020 6:02pm

2u2me wrote: »

I'm sorry but your story just doesn't add up.

What story? I haven't put forward any stories. I've said that the PRC has not been honest with it's reported numbers.

Pretty simple really. And why? Because they tend to downplay or cover up everything. All reports. Again why? Think of the "great leap forward". Millions of people dying through famine, work quotas, or mismanagement, but reports abounded about the success of it all. This is common in China, considering the nature of the PRC. I'm not putting forward any conspiracy theories. I'm simply sticking to their track record.

This still belongs in conspiracy until some sort of evidence comes to light.

Ahh well, I've never been a fan of shutting down discussion. You haven't actually addressed my points, and instead deflected or suggested things that I haven't actually proposed.. so.. nah.

FVP3 · 05-04-2020 6:03pm

Away With The Fairies wrote: »

https://youtu.be/bpQFCcSI0pU

I'm so sick watching this. People have went missing because they spoke up.

Seriously, will the truth come out eventually, is it from a wet market or the lab?

If is is a bio-engineered virus then the primary suspects would be the US, who have a history of doing this, particularly in Asia.

https://medium.com/insurge-intelligence/the-long-suppressed-korean-war-report-on-u-s-use-of-biological-weapons-released-at-last-20d83f5cee54

and its own people. It's a particularly evil regime.

https://www.businessinsider.com/military-government-secret-experiments-biological-chemical-weapons-2016-9?r=US&IR=T

I doubt it was the US in this case though. Or China. The wet market is the obvious origin.

skellig_rocks · 05-04-2020 6:04pm

Yurt! wrote: »

This is the exact crux of the issue. You're saying they've dealt with it impressively when you don't know and the evidence is piling up that it was more severe than the Chinese government were and are admitting. They've kicked out foreign journalists for heaven's sake.

I've spoken to people in mainland China, both expat and local, who don't believe the figures.

My own instinct from having spent a decent amount of time in China over the last decade, is that their figures are bunk, and they'll say anything to turn a PR disaster into a victory.

I honestly don't know why people are determined to amplify a propaganda campaign coming from a country that has had a hostile posture to the outside world for the last few years.

Two of their own citizen journalists, Fang Bin and Chen Qiushi, who were reporting up-to-minute situations in Wuhan, went missing in Wuhan since mid-February and they are still missing as of now.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-51486106

The biggest problem about China is not about their numbers or propaganda, the real problem is *no one* really know what actually happened in China in the past 2 months. It is like a big mystery blackbox of unknowns.

No matters how bad US or Europe are, at least we know what it is happening. That is why we are spectating China's numbers. I would not be surprised even Xi doesn't know the real figures.

FVP3 · 05-04-2020 6:05pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Ahh well, I've never been a fan of shutting down discussion. You haven't actually addressed my points, and instead deflected or suggested things that I haven't actually proposed.. so.. nah.

There's been plenty of engagement with your points. You argument is entirely an argument to incredulity, but you fail to explain ( as everybody does) why the Wuhan lockdown wouldn't work.

Beechwoodspark · 05-04-2020 6:07pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

First, they'd tell everyone to fcuk off. It's a stupid idea because it's completely unworkable.

As for the wet markets, I wonder at the ignorance. It's been said many times already.

Wet markets appeal to the poor because they're cheap. You shut down the wet market, another one will appear somewhere else. You manage to keep all of them shut down, where do poor people buy food? Supermarkets have higher costs to operate so the food is more expensive, which means that poor people have less food to eat. Food is already subsidized in China. It's one of the governments few gestures towards welfare support, and it's still difficult for the poor to buy. Which results in instability, so the government will be forced to allow wet markets because that's what people already know and want.

How do you propose forcing people to stop using wet markets? You really want to encourage police brutality and sending people off to prison (Chinese prisons and work camps are pretty nasty)?

There are no easy and quick answers here. China needs time to evolve towards a better system... and that's going to take decades considering the sheer size of their population.

It’s not a stupid idea.

If China “tells” everyone to “eff off” as you put it and doesn’t settle the bill for this horrendous virus that they deceived (underline and bold) the world about then isolate it from the rest of the world.

Let it go back to being a pariah state - the pre Nixon to China situation more or less.

FVP3 · 05-04-2020 6:07pm

skellig_rocks wrote: »

Two of their own citizen journalists, Fang Bin and Chen Qiushi, who were reporting up-to-minute situations in Wuhan, went missing in Wuhan since mid-February and they are still missing as of now.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-51486106

The biggest problem about China is not about their numbers or propaganda, the real problem is *no one* really know what actually happened in China in the past 2 months. It is like a big mystery blackbox of unknowns.

No matters how bad US or Europe are, at least we know what it is happening. That is why we are spectating China's numbers. I would not be surprise even Xi doesn't know the real figures.

If that were true then why would they close the cinemas again?

What are you saying is under-reported? Cases? That is true everywhere. Nobody is testing everybody, not even in Korea or Germany.

So yes that is true. Cases are underestimated.

However how could a death rate that is supposedly much larger ( up to 40 times much larger in some reports) be hidden.

Beechwoodspark · 05-04-2020 6:11pm

Also - a poster seems to be saying wet markets should continue as it is cheap food for the poor????!

I reject that completely.

Let China clean house and sort out its domestic food supply without these dreadful wet markets that cause cross species viruses.

The traditional Medicine industry should be shut down completely as well as it is quackery at its worst.

05-04-2020 6:13pm

bob mcbob wrote: »

Due to the secrecy in China, Europe and the USA had no idea how bad it was. Only CCP did. The knew exactly how bad it was by closing their internal borders.

Wonder how many people died as a result of this.

What difference would it have made? At the time that China was stating along with the WHO that the virus was serious, most western countries hadn't imposed any restrictions, except for token gestures.

There were foreign aid/medical workers in China long before the virus reached Italy. Western governments weren't completely reliant on Chinese reports... :rolleyes:

As for the numbers dying, might as well ask how many people died because Trump or Boris dismissed initial claims of the severity of the virus. Nah. We're grand. We will continue to shake hands with people. Yup.

Blaming China for what it did, I get that. But this shifting of everything on to them? Rubbish. I returned to Ireland on January 23rd, and the seriousness of the virus was known very soon after that.. At least, little people like myself knew it was serious... why the excuses for the big boys/gals in western governments who have better resources to find out such information?

And even better, the world has been watching China for years. What about all those resources used to keep tabs on China, and watching/analyzing of Chinese media? I know a variety of companies who do market forecasting, who have departments whose sole purpose to monitor shifts within Chinese media... what about the info they collated?

The Chinese Big Lie

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