The Chinese Big Lie

riddles wrote: »

Walking down a street in China is an experience throats clearing and phlegm flying left and right ��
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/china-s-olympic-effort-to-brush-up-spitting-image-1.341366

rubbish. Let's push those stereotypes, shall we?

I'd say there's a similar percentage of people in Ireland spitting or coughing up phlegm, it's just with the larger population that it seems more common. Few young people do it, and men more likely that women. Most likely to be older people or people who do low end jobs. Similar to here too. I can't recall any of my students or colleagues ever do it in my presence. It's more of a thing for country people.

China is changing, with a lot of behavior becoming unacceptable long before the virus hit.

Eric Cartman wrote: »

From a human rights point of view, government corruption, censorship and health service point of view china is miles worse than the US and I have no idea why people continuously try to defend effective dicatorships by falsely claiming the US is worse.

China is way worse in terms of what they've done within their own borders. However, it's worth considering that China hasn't involved themselves in any wars, except for Korea. They've done little in terms of direct involvement to destabilize any regions with their foreign policy, apart from meddling with foreign countries political systems (like Australia).

The US plays a game of pushing most of it's evils beyond it's borders. Guantanamo bay, and "black op"/contractors holding sites are established outside their borders to avoid the limitations of their domestic laws. In my lifetime, I have seen the US invade Iraq based on lies, extending their military adventures into many other parts of the M.East, and playing power games which have destabilized a range of other countries in the region.

You see, I don't see this as being a competition to see who is the worst. That's going to depend on which victims you speak to. I'd imagine that someone who has lost their family to a drone strike would be quick to point out that the US is worse than China... It's not about being the worst... but that both are pretty bad.

As for corruption... China has always been corrupt, and have never really tried to hide the fact. It's part of their actual culture, and their attempts to reduce corruption are typically just ways to consolidate power for various factions. However, the US... is incredibly corrupt. Voter district manipulation, claims of tampering with vote counts in a variety of elections, politicians playing to lobbyist groups, corporations with direct buying power within their political system... etc. Virtually all their politicians leave their positions with a higher net worth than on going in. Hardly a suggestion of a remotely honest system.... that died with Kennedy. (back then the corruption was more honest and less covered is BS)

Nah. China is worse in terms of it's abuses... but the US is worse because they claim a higher moral position. The US promotes itself as the defender of the free world, but their own contributions to human rights abuses are rather significant.... and the US has a wider reach to perform those abuses. China is pretty much limited to Mainland China and it's immediate neighbors. The US can (and does) push it's agenda on the whole world.

When I was young, I saw the US as the Sheriff to stand up for truth and justice. As an adult, I see the US as a corporation that looks after its own interests, will crush opposition, and then run a PR campaign. They've managed to tarnish their white knight outfit pretty well.

As for China.. they've always been a danger. They always will. I know posters here like to think they understand Chinese culture, or they dismiss it as being irrelevant... but China is going to be a danger for everyone in the future, because they have something to prove to themselves. That they're not a victim anymore. Haven't you noticed that those who see themselves as victims, often become the greatest of bullies? China is like that. They'll spread throughout Asia settling historical/cultural scores at some point.

Still, I would see both the US and China as being threats to world stability.

As for defending "China"... I do. I admit it. I tend to defend the common Chinese people from the outdated stereotyping, and collective responsibility that often gets thrown around on boards. I also do tend to argue certain aspects relating to the government, but I wouldn't be one to defend their concentration camps, work camps, ethnic cleansing, executions, abuse of power, etc. I don't believe that democracy is a viable political system for Chinese people due to their history and culture.. not yet, anyway.

2u2me wrote: »

While I couldn't agree more with this, most of what's in this thread belongs in the conspiracy forum with regards to China lying about their numbers of infected/dead.

Nah. They're lying about their numbers. I wouldn't consider it to be a conspiracy. To admit the real numbers would force them to accept responsibility.. not to us, but to their own people. They know that many Chinese have VPNs now, and access foreign news sites. Still... while the numbers are being manipulated, within China, the government has hyped up the danger of the virus which is rather suggestive that the numbers of dead are higher than stated.

But then, I suspect many countries, like India, or Russia are also lying about the numbers. Being honest would give momentum towards even more social instability/unrest.

bob mcbob wrote: »

Yes I agree but the big big big problem they have now is that they knew what was happening but they suppressed it. They allowed it to spread worldwide in order to not allow their own population to know what was really happening.

Actually... you're giving them far too much credit, and misunderstanding the situation in China.

In hindsight, they've been able to identify the virus as it exists today, back in October, but at the time, the average theory was that it was a relatively common flu virus that was just worse than normal. Something to worry about but not a pandemic scenario. And while we can point to the doctor who came out stating that the virus was more serious, you've got to understand that the PRC isn't as organised as many here think.

There are layers of government bureaucracy and little kingdoms of power/influence. The party is in every aspect of Chinese life, and the party is incredibly corrupt. That doctor who came out would have been a party member himself, and might have playing his own political maneuvering. It's the way things are over there. Everything is about their position, and they're concerned with what might threaten or boost that position.

Honestly, I doubt Beijing knew much before the rest of us the seriousness of the virus. Chinese people are very insular, and aren't clued in to world affairs. They also don't tend to learn much about things that aren't directly related to their own jobs... and even there, they're often very lackluster about developing their knowledge (I'm a university lecturer over there)

The point being is that while we on boards will browse all manner of topics, and have an awareness of the risks for many things... the average Chinese party member is rather clueless, except when it comes to party politics. Pretty much all aspects of Chinese culture is connected with politics, so they don't really explore other things that aren't useful. That's why there are specialists/experts... but those experts owe their positions to the party, so most won't want to rock the boat, and draw the wrong kind of attention.

I genuinely doubt the conspiracy theories about how long Beijing knew about the virus as a genuine danger. As a strong flu bug arriving during/after winter? That happens every year, and isn't too much of a concern. Chinese people are rather harsh about the loss of life in certain circumstances, and are very fatalistic about certain "traditional" disaster types.

As for allowing it to spread.... Even weeks after i left China, there were zero checks in western airports. None. No followups on people coming from high risk zones. No real effort to contain the virus except asking people to self-isolate. Whooptie do. Children coming back from Italy weren't stopped and quarantined for two weeks, before going home. Christ, cheltenham went ahead... as if that wasn't a prime example of allowing the virus to spread.... You complain about China not doing enough.. but other countries weren't doing much and a lot less than China.

I flew through three airports when I came back from China... and China was the only airport to ask where I was coming from, and test my temperature. Turkey, Germany, and Ireland. No checks beyond the security checks... and this was when the red flag had been raised. So... nah... I don't buy into passing the responsibility on to China. Even with warning, other countries ignored the risk.

When it comes out what they have done - this will fundamentally change relations between China and the West.

I find this incredibly funny. What relationships? China doesn't trust or like any western governments. They think our politics are corrupt, hypocritical, and unreliable. Few western politicians gain any kind of respect from Chinese people, and that's usually on an individual level.

As for the west? Western politicians over the years have publicly made insulting or dismissive remarks about China through the media. Trump's Chinese virus comment is a prime example of this, but there are no shortage of examples where western media will do pieces painting China as a terror, and western governments making hard noises, but backing down when China doesn't flinch.

Besides, considering that China is surrounded by US military bases, or those of its allies, and that US Naval ships regularly sail into sight of the Chinese mainland, China has zero reason to trust or like Western nations. Could you imagine if a Chinese naval task force anchored within sight of America's western seaboard, or placed military/rocket bases in Cuba or Venezuela? There are US nukes in a variety of countries around China, or on vessels based in those countries.

I wouldn't say there are any relations between China and the West except for trade. It's a cold war with smiley faces.