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The Chinese Big Lie

[Deleted User]

So it seems the chatter coming from the US and the UK in recent days is true. The chinese have been fudging the numbers. There is too much coming out at the moment for this not to be true.
Found this article to be of interest: https://www.the-american-interest.com/2020/03/31/the-chinese-big-lie/

I suppose this then reduces our faith in the WHO as they said China was doing a great job. It also makes containing the virus harder as we don't really know how effective the chine containment was if they are messing with the data.

I tended to believe this was a conspiracy theory but have come to believe that today that the chinese having been messing with the infected/deaths number.

What do my esteemed boardsies think?

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The Great Gatsby

There's always been a Superpower . . . the Roman Empire, the British Empire, USSR, USA . . . is China next? If so, no thanks . . . Bad and all as the USA is, I'll take it over China anytime . . . they would make 1984 read like a comic book.

Suckit

Quick question........ (It ended not being as quick as I planned)

Would China be less susceptible to the virus as they are less careful than us?
They are not big on sterilisation, nor over the top on general cleanliness either (not as a race, but as a country, as most is rural). They also eat things like bats, rats, dogs etc. that could carry disease or any number of things.
But that could also be down things like the Spanish flu, where they didn't get hit hard, and as a result are one of the the places believed that it originated from. (This is not my theory, nor the one I believe).
The 2nd wave of the Spanish flu was far more deadly than the first, and hit in October - November, yet China was almost unnafected by it.
That could
1. Make them less likely to start relying on antibacterial wipes, spray, disenfectant, bleach etc.
2. may make them less capable of contracting viruses like this..

Something like this - https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20151118-can-you-be-too-clean

tuxy

Suckit wrote: »

Quick question........ (It ended not being as quick as I planned)

Would China be less susceptible to the virus as they are less careful than us?
They are not big on sterilisation, nor over the top on general cleanliness either (not as a race, but as a country, as most is rural). They also eat things like bats, rats, dogs etc. that could carry disease or any number of things.
But that could also be down things like the Spanish flu, where they didn't get hit hard, and as a result are one of the the places believed that it originated from. (This is not my theory, nor the one I believe).
The 2nd wave of the Spanish flu was far more deadly than the first, and hit in October - November, yet China was almost unnafected by it.
That could
1. Make them less likely to start relying on antibacterial wipes, spray, disenfectant, bleach etc.
2. may make them less capable of contracting viruses like this..

Something like this - https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20151118-can-you-be-too-clean

If that was the case disease would be low in 3rd world countries.

No Chinese troops were involved in the 1st world war. Outside of the war travel was very low compared to today. This is how they avoided the Spanish flu.

Airyfairy12

Suckit wrote: »

Quick question........ (It ended not being as quick as I planned)

Would China be less susceptible to the virus as they are less careful than us?
They are not big on sterilisation, nor over the top on general cleanliness either (not as a race, but as a country, as most is rural). They also eat things like bats, rats, dogs etc. that could carry disease or any number of things.
But that could also be down things like the Spanish flu, where they didn't get hit hard, and as a result are one of the the places believed that it originated from. (This is not my theory, nor the one I believe).
The 2nd wave of the Spanish flu was far more deadly than the first, and hit in October - November, yet China was almost unnafected by it.
That could
1. Make them less likely to start relying on antibacterial wipes, spray, disenfectant, bleach etc.
2. may make them less capable of contracting viruses like this..

Something like this - https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20151118-can-you-be-too-clean

The Virus is hitting every country very hard, including less developed countries were sanitation isnt very good. It's not just Europe and western countries experiencing this pandemic.

Suckit

tuxy wrote: »

If that was the case disease would be low in 3rd world countries.

No Chinese troops were involved in the 1st world war. Outside of the war travel was very low compared to today. This is how they avoided the Spanish flu.

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

The Virus is hitting every country very hard, including less developed countries were sanitation isnt very good. It's not just Europe and western countries experiencing this pandemic.

Yeah, knew that when I typed, but i don't know any numbers. It just seemed to make sense to me. I also remember seeing the Chinese frontline walking through the streets blasting them (the streets) with I guess diluted bleach or something.

A few drinks too many tonight. This is the first time in over a year I have stayed in the one place for more than 3 days............. I am cracking up.

Airyfairy12

Suckit wrote: »

Yeah, knew that when I typed, but i don't know any numbers. It just seemed to make sense to me. I also remember seeing the Chinese frontline walking through the streets blasting them (the streets) with I guess diluted bleach or something.

A few drinks too many tonight. This is the first time in over a year I have stayed in the one place for more than 3 days............. I am cracking up.

The numbers are the same as western countries. We're not hearing about them as much but when do we ever? The media leaves those countries out for some reason?
An earlier post either here or another thread posted a link about Ecuador, bodies are rotting on the streets.

I think the virus was slower to spread to Africa and third world places because people dont really travel to those areas as much as they do to other western countries so Europe and the US got hit with it first before third world places did.
Numbers are starting to creep up now in Africa, South America, middle east and small islands.
The virus is slowly moving across the entire planet and no country has gotten out of this lightly.

Yurt2

tuxy wrote: »

If that was the case disease would be low in 3rd world countries.

No Chinese troops were involved in the 1st world war. Outside of the war travel was very low compared to today. This is how they avoided the Spanish flu.

France and Britain used about 140k Chinese as labour behind the lines in the WW1 conflict.

There is a theory (though unproven) that they perhaps were the ones that brought the Spanish flu to Europe.

riddles

Walking down a street in China is an experience throats clearing and phlegm flying left and right ��
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/china-s-olympic-effort-to-brush-up-spitting-image-1.341366

plodder

Bushmaster64 wrote: »

It's more and more likely that this virus escaped out of the Bio lab in Wuhan. It was reported that a lab worker had previously been bitten by a Corona infected bat and self isolated some years ago.

We know bats carry it. We know bats can transfer to humans.

My feeling is that the Chinese regime prefers the story of it coming from wet markets more than the story of a bungling regime which let a virus escape a top security facility.

It's likely that a bat infected a lab technical.

It's far too coincidental that just a couple of hundred meters from the wet market reported to be the spark for infection, there's a level 4 security bio lab.

Infections of humans by animals are not that unusual. Normally, those infections can't be passed on to other humans though. What is unusual about this outbreak is the mutation that allowed it to pass from human to human.

Bushmaster64

plodder wrote: »

Infections of humans by animals are not that unusual. Normally, those infections can't be passed on to other humans though. What is unusual about this outbreak is the mutation that allowed it to pass from human to human.

All Coronaviruses as far as I'm aware are transmissible between human to human.

It's the jump from animal to human that is the harder part under normal circumstances, but not under the dreadful food hygiene practices of the Chinese.

But the fact the CCP offered up the theory of wet market infection means it wasn't wet markets. It was the level 4 Bio lab 200 meters from the wet market.

BarryD2

Suckit wrote: »

Would China be less susceptible to the virus as they are less careful than us?

So have better developed immune systems??

The problem with that is their reported statistics indicated steady growth of the disease over a few weeks, then mysteriously this growth came to a shuddering slowdown. I think you’d have to suspect that a great many Chinese people are dying but that a decision was made that the economy is more important and there’s money to be made..... not least from Ireland.

We’ll be losing billions and the Chinese will be making trillions.

[Deleted User]

riddles wrote: »

Walking down a street in China is an experience throats clearing and phlegm flying left and right ��
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/china-s-olympic-effort-to-brush-up-spitting-image-1.341366

rubbish. Let's push those stereotypes, shall we?

I'd say there's a similar percentage of people in Ireland spitting or coughing up phlegm, it's just with the larger population that it seems more common. Few young people do it, and men more likely that women. Most likely to be older people or people who do low end jobs. Similar to here too. I can't recall any of my students or colleagues ever do it in my presence. It's more of a thing for country people.

China is changing, with a lot of behavior becoming unacceptable long before the virus hit.

Bushmaster64

Deleted User wrote: »

rubbish. Let's push those stereotypes, shall we?

I'd say there's a similar percentage of people in Ireland spitting or coughing up phlegm, it's just with the larger population that it seems more common. Few young people do it, and men more likely that women. Most likely to be older people or people who do low end jobs. Similar to here too. I can't recall any of my students or colleagues ever do it in my presence. It's more of a thing for country people.

China is changing, with a lot of behavior becoming unacceptable long before the virus hit.

Anecdotal, but I have Chinese neighbours and their parents came to visit from China.

Every morning they would be in the garden coughing up phlegm and spitting it out. Absolutely no regard to being discreet either. Really loud about it.

Was glad when they left. The neighbours are great though. We're friendly and hang out occasionally.

bob mcbob

FVP3 wrote: »

America is far worse of course. I mean take a look at the last 20 years. Whats china done compared to the US? Has it killed millions of muslims based on lies? Invaded multiple countries? Destabilized whole swathes of the middle east and North Africa, and Europe as the asylum seekers flow into Europe.

Yes, their neighbours are hostile to China, as most South Americans are to the US. That tends to happen. However as Europeans we should worry about our area of the world, and the US is our enemy.

Well China has certainly locked up millions of Uighurs - it is difficult to know how many they killed

plodder

Bushmaster64 wrote: »

All Coronaviruses as far as I'm aware are transmissible between human to human.

It's the jump from animal to human that is the harder part under normal circumstances, but not under the dreadful food hygiene practices of the Chinese.

But the fact the CCP offered up the theory of wet market infection means it wasn't wet markets. It was the level 4 Bio lab 200 meters from the wet market.

No, I don't think so. There are hundreds of animal coronaviruses which don't transfer to or between humans. There are only six known human coronaviruses.

nullzero

Bushmaster64 wrote: »

Anecdotal, but I have Chinese neighbours and their parents came to visit from China.

Every morning they would be in the garden coughing up phlegm and spitting it out. Absolutely no regard to being discreet either. Really loud about it.

Was glad when they left. The neighbours are great though. We're friendly and hang out occasionally.

Supposedly the coughing up and spitting out of Phlegm in the morning is a Chinese tradition.

Bushmaster64

bob mcbob wrote: »

Well China has certainly locked up millions of Uighurs - it is difficult to know how many they killed

I don't think they're being killed, just.......reeducated

Eric Cartman

From a human rights point of view, government corruption, censorship and health service point of view china is miles worse than the US and I have no idea why people continuously try to defend effective dicatorships by falsely claiming the US is worse.

Dravokivich

Eric Cartman wrote: »

From a human rights point of view, government corruption, censorship and health service point of view china is miles worse than the US and I have no idea why people continuously try to defend effective dicatorships by falsely claiming the US is worse.

They all have horrible bottoms.

2u2me

Eric Cartman wrote: »

From a human rights point of view, government corruption, censorship and health service point of view china is miles worse than the US and I have no idea why people continuously try to defend effective dicatorships by falsely claiming the US is worse.

While I couldn't agree more with this, most of what's in this thread belongs in the conspiracy forum with regards to China lying about their numbers of infected/dead.

LessOutragePlz

2u2me wrote: »

While I couldn't agree more with this, most of what's in this thread belongs in the conspiracy forum with regards to China lying about their numbers of infected/dead.

Na it doesn't suggest that we're all conspiracy nuts for questioning their numbers.

Can you show me one independent foreign journalist currently reporting death and infection numbers from inside China?

How can we trust or believe any information that they have provided considering that they have been lying since the beginning of this outbreak by silencing the doctors that diagnosed the first few cases of covid-19 and trying to suppress any reporting of the initial outbreak.

To say that the questioning of their figures belongs in the conspiracy forum is delusional IMO.

[Deleted User]

Eric Cartman wrote: »

From a human rights point of view, government corruption, censorship and health service point of view china is miles worse than the US and I have no idea why people continuously try to defend effective dicatorships by falsely claiming the US is worse.

China is way worse in terms of what they've done within their own borders. However, it's worth considering that China hasn't involved themselves in any wars, except for Korea. They've done little in terms of direct involvement to destabilize any regions with their foreign policy, apart from meddling with foreign countries political systems (like Australia).

The US plays a game of pushing most of it's evils beyond it's borders. Guantanamo bay, and "black op"/contractors holding sites are established outside their borders to avoid the limitations of their domestic laws. In my lifetime, I have seen the US invade Iraq based on lies, extending their military adventures into many other parts of the M.East, and playing power games which have destabilized a range of other countries in the region.

You see, I don't see this as being a competition to see who is the worst. That's going to depend on which victims you speak to. I'd imagine that someone who has lost their family to a drone strike would be quick to point out that the US is worse than China... It's not about being the worst... but that both are pretty bad.

As for corruption... China has always been corrupt, and have never really tried to hide the fact. It's part of their actual culture, and their attempts to reduce corruption are typically just ways to consolidate power for various factions. However, the US... is incredibly corrupt. Voter district manipulation, claims of tampering with vote counts in a variety of elections, politicians playing to lobbyist groups, corporations with direct buying power within their political system... etc. Virtually all their politicians leave their positions with a higher net worth than on going in. Hardly a suggestion of a remotely honest system.... that died with Kennedy. (back then the corruption was more honest and less covered is BS)

Nah. China is worse in terms of it's abuses... but the US is worse because they claim a higher moral position. The US promotes itself as the defender of the free world, but their own contributions to human rights abuses are rather significant.... and the US has a wider reach to perform those abuses. China is pretty much limited to Mainland China and it's immediate neighbors. The US can (and does) push it's agenda on the whole world.

When I was young, I saw the US as the Sheriff to stand up for truth and justice. As an adult, I see the US as a corporation that looks after its own interests, will crush opposition, and then run a PR campaign. They've managed to tarnish their white knight outfit pretty well.

As for China.. they've always been a danger. They always will. I know posters here like to think they understand Chinese culture, or they dismiss it as being irrelevant... but China is going to be a danger for everyone in the future, because they have something to prove to themselves. That they're not a victim anymore. Haven't you noticed that those who see themselves as victims, often become the greatest of bullies? China is like that. They'll spread throughout Asia settling historical/cultural scores at some point.

Still, I would see both the US and China as being threats to world stability.

As for defending "China"... I do. I admit it. I tend to defend the common Chinese people from the outdated stereotyping, and collective responsibility that often gets thrown around on boards. I also do tend to argue certain aspects relating to the government, but I wouldn't be one to defend their concentration camps, work camps, ethnic cleansing, executions, abuse of power, etc. I don't believe that democracy is a viable political system for Chinese people due to their history and culture.. not yet, anyway.

[Deleted User]

Dravokivich wrote: »

They all have horrible bottoms.

Not true. I've properly researched the subject in China.

But yes, flat asses are really common, and razor sharp hip bones... but with a changing diet, their bodies are changing too.

[Deleted User]

2u2me wrote: »

While I couldn't agree more with this, most of what's in this thread belongs in the conspiracy forum with regards to China lying about their numbers of infected/dead.

Nah. They're lying about their numbers. I wouldn't consider it to be a conspiracy. To admit the real numbers would force them to accept responsibility.. not to us, but to their own people. They know that many Chinese have VPNs now, and access foreign news sites. Still... while the numbers are being manipulated, within China, the government has hyped up the danger of the virus which is rather suggestive that the numbers of dead are higher than stated.

But then, I suspect many countries, like India, or Russia are also lying about the numbers. Being honest would give momentum towards even more social instability/unrest.

bob mcbob

Deleted User wrote: »

Nah. They're lying about their numbers. I wouldn't consider it to be a conspiracy. To admit the real numbers would force them to accept responsibility.. not to us, but to their own people. They know that many Chinese have VPNs now, and access foreign news sites. Still... while the numbers are being manipulated, within China, the government has hyped up the danger of the virus which is rather suggestive that the numbers of dead are higher than stated.

But then, I suspect many countries, like India, or Russia are also lying about the numbers. Being honest would give momentum towards even more social instability/unrest.

Yes I agree but the big big big problem they have now is that they knew what was happening but they suppressed it. They allowed it to spread worldwide in order to not allow their own population to know what was really happening.

When it comes out what they have done - this will fundamentally change relations between China and the West.

[Deleted User]

bob mcbob wrote: »

Yes I agree but the big big big problem they have now is that they knew what was happening but they suppressed it. They allowed it to spread worldwide in order to not allow their own population to know what was really happening.

Actually... you're giving them far too much credit, and misunderstanding the situation in China.

In hindsight, they've been able to identify the virus as it exists today, back in October, but at the time, the average theory was that it was a relatively common flu virus that was just worse than normal. Something to worry about but not a pandemic scenario. And while we can point to the doctor who came out stating that the virus was more serious, you've got to understand that the PRC isn't as organised as many here think.

There are layers of government bureaucracy and little kingdoms of power/influence. The party is in every aspect of Chinese life, and the party is incredibly corrupt. That doctor who came out would have been a party member himself, and might have playing his own political maneuvering. It's the way things are over there. Everything is about their position, and they're concerned with what might threaten or boost that position.

Honestly, I doubt Beijing knew much before the rest of us the seriousness of the virus. Chinese people are very insular, and aren't clued in to world affairs. They also don't tend to learn much about things that aren't directly related to their own jobs... and even there, they're often very lackluster about developing their knowledge (I'm a university lecturer over there)

The point being is that while we on boards will browse all manner of topics, and have an awareness of the risks for many things... the average Chinese party member is rather clueless, except when it comes to party politics. Pretty much all aspects of Chinese culture is connected with politics, so they don't really explore other things that aren't useful. That's why there are specialists/experts... but those experts owe their positions to the party, so most won't want to rock the boat, and draw the wrong kind of attention.

I genuinely doubt the conspiracy theories about how long Beijing knew about the virus as a genuine danger. As a strong flu bug arriving during/after winter? That happens every year, and isn't too much of a concern. Chinese people are rather harsh about the loss of life in certain circumstances, and are very fatalistic about certain "traditional" disaster types.

As for allowing it to spread.... Even weeks after i left China, there were zero checks in western airports. None. No followups on people coming from high risk zones. No real effort to contain the virus except asking people to self-isolate. Whooptie do. Children coming back from Italy weren't stopped and quarantined for two weeks, before going home. Christ, cheltenham went ahead... as if that wasn't a prime example of allowing the virus to spread.... You complain about China not doing enough.. but other countries weren't doing much and a lot less than China.

I flew through three airports when I came back from China... and China was the only airport to ask where I was coming from, and test my temperature. Turkey, Germany, and Ireland. No checks beyond the security checks... and this was when the red flag had been raised. So... nah... I don't buy into passing the responsibility on to China. Even with warning, other countries ignored the risk.

When it comes out what they have done - this will fundamentally change relations between China and the West.

I find this incredibly funny. What relationships? China doesn't trust or like any western governments. They think our politics are corrupt, hypocritical, and unreliable. Few western politicians gain any kind of respect from Chinese people, and that's usually on an individual level.

As for the west? Western politicians over the years have publicly made insulting or dismissive remarks about China through the media. Trump's Chinese virus comment is a prime example of this, but there are no shortage of examples where western media will do pieces painting China as a terror, and western governments making hard noises, but backing down when China doesn't flinch.

Besides, considering that China is surrounded by US military bases, or those of its allies, and that US Naval ships regularly sail into sight of the Chinese mainland, China has zero reason to trust or like Western nations. Could you imagine if a Chinese naval task force anchored within sight of America's western seaboard, or placed military/rocket bases in Cuba or Venezuela? There are US nukes in a variety of countries around China, or on vessels based in those countries.

I wouldn't say there are any relations between China and the West except for trade. It's a cold war with smiley faces.

2u2me

Deleted User wrote: »

Nah. They're lying about their numbers. I wouldn't consider it to be a conspiracy. To admit the real numbers would force them to accept responsibility.. not to us, but to their own people. They know that many Chinese have VPNs now, and access foreign news sites. Still... while the numbers are being manipulated, within China, the government has hyped up the danger of the virus which is rather suggestive that the numbers of dead are higher than stated.

But then, I suspect many countries, like India, or Russia are also lying about the numbers. Being honest would give momentum towards even more social instability/unrest.

The reason I think it belongs in conspiracy is because there has been no evidence supplied that they are fudging their numbers.

They took draconian measures much sooner than the rest of the world, why would you and most others assume they must be lying? Why can these draconian measures not work at stopping the spread of this virus?

Yurt2

2u2me wrote: »

The reason I think it belongs in conspiracy is because there has been no evidence supplied that they are fudging their numbers.

They took draconian measures much sooner than the rest of the world, why would you and most others assume they must be lying? Why can these draconian measures not work at stopping the spread of this virus?

How do you think the open gathering of evidence that embarrasses the CCP works?

Anybody with a passing knowledge of modern China, and observing the spread of the virus elsewhere, knows their numbers are horsesh*t.

McGiver

Yurt! wrote:

There is a theory (though unproven) that they perhaps were the ones that brought the Spanish flu to Europe.

Multiple strands of evidence that it indeed originated in China as most HxNx flu pandemic strains do.
Probable origin in China, with further amplification in the US and/or Europe.

patnor1011

2u2me wrote: »

The reason I think it belongs in conspiracy is because there has been no evidence supplied that they are fudging their numbers.

They took draconian measures much sooner than the rest of the world, why would you and most others assume they must be lying? Why can these draconian measures not work at stopping the spread of this virus?

There was no evidence supplied that they are not fudging their numbers.
People presume they do as they do have history of doing so. Last example was sars outbreak few years ago. They outright lied about it until the very last minute when they could not lie anymore. Maybe they just got better this time so it is just harder to catch them but time will tell as they simply cant silence everyone back home.
By the way - every country start fudging the numbers at some stage.