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FG to just do nothing for the next 5 years.

17172747677200

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 71,051 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    markodaly wrote: »
    Oh here we go.
    The bore has come out of the daily hibernation.

    But lets take it this way, you blame FF for the crash, but I guess the good economic news since 2011 has been 'luck' and nothing to do with the government at the helm?

    You cannot have it both ways, either governments in power are be blamed for their bad mistakes and praised for good outcomes or not.

    There have been some good policy..some bad policy and some downright appalling policy. And there has been luck too.

    FG dropped to 20% of the vote for a reason mark and they rehabilitated the party that sunk the country in the process.

    If you don't want to confront the realities of why that happened that's your problem.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,431 ✭✭✭Mortelaro


    smurgen wrote: »
    Okay so you're saying the government didn't spend on infrastructure the last few years because they were in your words " bound by a CBD restriction under the growth and stability pact" is this right?

    No


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,330 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    There have been some good policy..some bad policy and some downright appalling policy. And there has been luck too.

    FG dropped to 20% of the vote for a reason mark and they rehabilitated the party that sunk the country in the process.

    If you don't want to confront the realities of why that happened that's your problem.

    So, we are back to the inane hurler on the ditch mode.
    Good to know.

    I swear, at this stage, you just copy and paste your responses from one big word doco. I don't think you have said anything original for about 3 months now.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 71,051 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    markodaly wrote: »
    So, we are back to the inane hurler on the ditch mode.
    Good to know.

    I swear, at this stage, you just copy and paste your responses from one big word doco. I don't think you have said anything original for about 3 months now.

    Double down and deflect, with some disparaging content.

    Yawn Mark, yawn.

    When you figure out and confront why you are down to 20% of the vote, get back to us. You might find that 'confrontation' tallies with what we are saying.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,330 ✭✭✭✭markodaly



    When you figure out and confront why you are down to 20% of the vote, get back to us. You might find that 'confrontation' tallies with what we are saying.

    :rolleyes:

    Again, you totally ignore my post. Another copy and paste job.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 71,051 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    markodaly wrote: »
    :rolleyes:

    Again, you totally ignore my post. .

    I didn't ignore it...honest.


    Here is what I said in the first part of my post:


    Double down and deflect, with some disparaging content.


    Here is the reponse to what you said which is in italics



    So, we are back to the inane hurler on the ditch mode.
    Good to know.
    = Double down.

    I swear, at this stage, you just copy and paste your responses from one big word doco.
    = Deflection

    I don't think you have said anything original for about 3 months now. = Disparagement


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,275 ✭✭✭tobsey


    smurgen wrote: »
    Keep using the word balderdash,it might start making sense if you use it another 2/3 times maybe.
    Meanwhile caretaker government spending away with minimal supervision and treating the press using Trumpesque tactics.

    https://twitter.com/gavreilly/status/1245851088898740224?s=19

    He’s the minister for finance. He needs to work with facts and figures. There’s no point in a reporter asking how which will be spent on this or that, or how much less will be taken in a particular type of tax if Donohoe hasn’t been prepped. There’s no way he’ll have figures in his head like that. If he gets the questions he can have someone look them up and give in accurate answer.

    That same day, Varadkar took open questions from the floor and it was clear that he hadn’t sight of them. One was on the signing of the new emergency legislation, he said he thought it was signed but he’d have to check offline. That’s the difference in his role, he’s expected to answer questions on the overall strategy of the government, not necessarily the specifics.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,275 ✭✭✭tobsey


    There have been some good policy..some bad policy and some downright appalling policy. And there has been luck too.

    FG dropped to 20% of the vote for a reason mark and they rehabilitated the party that sunk the country in the process.

    If you don't want to confront the realities of why that happened that's your problem.

    That was Bowie’s, or Matt Barrett's favourite line on these threads, that FG made FF electable and that was somehow damning on FG. In fact FF’s vote didn’t really grow at all in the latest election. They bounced back a bit in 2016 from their wipeout in 2011 but have stagnated since. The biggest gains by far were by SF, so if anything FG’s performance boosted SF. I’d have thought you’d be happy with that. Why you’re saying FG’s losses are a benefit to FF is strange. The numbers don’t support that.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,873 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    markodaly wrote: »
    I have to love this nonesense.

    Ireland has had the fastest growing economy in the EU.
    I will repeat, Irelend had the FASTEST growing economy in the EU.

    If it were all just a global economic boom, why are Ireland top of the class when it comes to things like growth and unemployment. Just pure luck I guess? Nothing to do with good policies drawing capital or investment, making it a good place to create jobs?

    Look at Greece. SF poster boy. It had a 17% unemployment rate last year, a youth unemployment rate of over 35%!

    SF fans trying to argue economics is like a one handed man trying to play the violin.

    you cant credit any of them for our geographical position or that we are english speaking and brexit. The low corportate tax helps. An insane rate of marginal tax, a lot of red tape, rip off insurance, the 23% rate of vat is a joke! Ripp off accomodation and child care, crap transport. I wouldnt credit FG with too much, we could have a far better economy than we do. If your argument is FG are the best of the current lot for economy, fair enough! But it could be a lot better.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,275 ✭✭✭tobsey


    smurgen wrote: »
    Still trying to make up your mind on what I said.i'll check in tomorrow.

    In the meantime here's Lieo with some anecdotes to keep us entertained.

    https://twitter.com/caulmick/status/1245795488466640899?s=19
    If you don’t believe that’s happening out there then you’re naive in the extreme. Why Varadkar would say it and make himself look bad though I have no idea. It wasn’t his smartest move.

    If people were working for 300 euro a week and knew they’d get 350 if temporarily laid off then of course they’d prefer the second option, even if it was the wrong thing to do. The government had no choice but to make the payment a flat rate that wasn’t means tested or else the system would collapse. It also makes it rife for abuse though.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 71,051 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    tobsey wrote: »
    That was Bowie’s, or Matt Barrett's favourite line on these threads, that FG made FF electable and that was somehow damning on FG. In fact FF’s vote didn’t really grow at all in the latest election. They bounced back a bit in 2016 from their wipeout in 2011 but have stagnated since. The biggest gains by far were by SF, so if anything FG’s performance boosted SF. I’d have thought you’d be happy with that. Why you’re saying FG’s losses are a benefit to FF is strange. The numbers don’t support that.

    FF should have been dead and buried in 2011. But FG couldn't afford to do that because it would then be a straight fight between them and SF.

    So they rehabilitated the other party of the power swap. FF should have went the way of the PD's before them - redundant, irrelevant and toxic.

    SF did it the hard way with both FF and FG trying to take them down.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,431 ✭✭✭Mortelaro


    Fianna Fáil aren't going anywhere
    Arch supporter Fionnan Sheehan is editor of the Irish independent and is busy converting it to the new Irish Press


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 71,051 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Mortelaro wrote: »
    Fianna Fáil aren't going anywhere
    Arch supporter Fionnan Sheehan is editor of the Irish independent and is busy converting it to the new Irish Press

    No, they aren't going anywhere. Like dock weed you have to keep it cut back or it will just get stronger.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,211 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    FF should have been dead and buried in 2011. But FG couldn't afford to do that because it would then be a straight fight between them and SF.

    So they rehabilitated the other party of the power swap. FF should have went the way of the PD's before them - redundant, irrelevant and toxic.

    SF did it the hard way with both FF and FG trying to take them down.

    What a load.of Baloney. It was Labour that saved FF. In there rush to be part of the government in 2011 they made unsustainable promises, remember the Labour way or the Frankfurt way. If labour has not over promised they would have been the main opposition party from 2011- whenever, it is likely that if FG had the numbers to form a government by itself it would have only lasted 3-4 years not 5. Labour would have stormed into power and SF would still be only a party of 10ishTDs

    Instead labour left an open gate to both SF and FF.you should be thanking Gilmore and Rabbit

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 71,051 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    What a load.of Baloney. It was Labour that saved FF. In there rush to be part of the government in 2011 they made unsustainable promises, remember the Labour way or the Frankfurt way. If labour has not over promised they would have been the main opposition party from 2011- whenever, it is likely that if FG had the numbers to form a government by itself it would have only lasted 3-4 years not 5. Labour would have stormed into power and SF would still be only a party of 10ishTDs

    Instead labour left an open gate to both SF and FF.you should be thanking Gilmore and Rabbit

    Blame anyone but FG.

    Surprise surprise we now have them coalescing to cling onto power for a wee while longer. :)

    They'll help SF alright by being completely transparently obvious in what they are doing.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,431 ✭✭✭Mortelaro


    No, they aren't going anywhere. Like dock weed you have to keep it cut back or it will just get stronger.

    Are you sure you're not talking about Sinn Féin:D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 71,051 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Mortelaro wrote: »
    Are you sure you're not talking about Sinn Féin:D

    One man's weed is another's flower...etc etc ;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,933 ✭✭✭smurgen


    blanch152 wrote: »
    That is the problem, you are relying on book learning from an economics masters.

    Economics theory usually only survives about five minutes in the real world, hence that is why you get so much wrong. By the time you adapt economics to reality, it is more like a combination of psychology, sociology, behavioural science and business management than any recognisable economics that you pick up in college.

    I agree 100% that's why is more regarded as an art than a science by those that have studied it. However I was scoffed at and accused of lying about my education last night. The latest insults cast. Hence why I wanted to tackle people on the actual theory that I studied.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,933 ✭✭✭smurgen


    christy c wrote: »
    You never gave a figure, what was Google's effective rate of tax in 2018?

    When referencing companies paying more than 12.5% you said "Some companies?lol maybe small companies than can't afford tax efficient structures".

    Please don't get on your high horse with insults either, with your frequent mention of Finnerbots.

    Is this before of after you dismissed the creative accounting that facilitates tax deductible payments back to the parent company? You know that part that puts the profit shifting part into BEPS?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,199 ✭✭✭christy c


    smurgen wrote: »
    Is this before of after you dismissed the creative accounting that facilitates tax deductible payments back to the parent company? You know that part that puts the profit shifting part into BEPS?

    Whenever you have calculated the effective rate come back to me.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,933 ✭✭✭smurgen


    markodaly wrote: »
    What nonsense is this?

    EVERY country in the western world is going to have a huge bill to pay after this dies down. Blaming FG for the fact that a bill is due because of Covid-19 is among one of the most stupidest comments I have seen here for a while.

    You're intentionally misrepresenting what I said. I'm saying the boom was squandered and we're more exposed than we should be. That stupid comment is your own because you created a false arguement out of the misreading of my comment and attributing it to me.but I've seen it as a regular tactic out of yourself.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,933 ✭✭✭smurgen


    christy c wrote: »
    Whenever you have calculated the effective rate come back to me.

    So still ignoring what I'm saying or don't understand which is it? I hope to Christ you're not an accountant given the understanding you're showing.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,199 ✭✭✭christy c


    smurgen wrote: »
    So still ignoring what I'm saying or don't understand which is it? I hope to Christ you're not an accountant given the understanding you're showing.

    As I said, come back to me when you have calculated the effective rate of tax.

    I understand royalty payments perfectly, and they were explained to you by another poster when you were waffling a few weeks ago.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,431 ✭✭✭Mortelaro


    smurgen wrote: »
    I agree 100% that's why is more regarded as an art than a science by those that have studied it. However I was scoffed at and accused of lying about my education last night. The latest insults cast. Hence why I wanted to tackle people on the actual theory that I studied.

    In my opinion, just going on your posts,you do not have a masters degree in Economics.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,275 ✭✭✭tobsey


    Blame anyone but FG.

    Surprise surprise we now have them coalescing to cling onto power for a wee while longer. :)

    They'll help SF alright by being completely transparently obvious in what they are doing.

    You’re point on this is pure nonsense Francie. Do you think FG said to their voters who were leaving them, here Vote for FF so?? If the voters went to FF instead of the other parties that’s the fault of those parties. I’m sure you’d be delighted if FG had held on to them and kept FF and SF small alright.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,933 ✭✭✭smurgen


    markodaly wrote: »
    Oh here we go.
    The bore has come out of the daily hibernation.

    But lets take it this way, you blame FF for the crash, but I guess the good economic news since 2011 has been 'luck' and nothing to do with the government at the helm?

    You cannot have it both ways, either governments in power are be blamed for their bad mistakes and praised for good outcomes or not.

    The world financial markets have seen their biggest bull period ever. And as a small open economy it's a case of a rising tide lifting all boats.

    Have a read of this as it highlights alot of how I feel and my worries on how we run the economy. I find the National Competitiveness Council reports good and I'd love to see the Department of Finance pay more attention to them.

    https://www.rte.ie/news/2018/1219/1018003-competitiveness-threat/


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,275 ✭✭✭tobsey


    smurgen wrote: »
    You're intentionally misrepresenting what I said. I'm saying the boom was squandered and we're more exposed than we should be. That stupid comment is your own because you created a false arguement out of the misreading of my comment and attributing it to me.but I've seen it as a regular tactic out of yourself.

    Went from a massive deficit to a surplus, went from being bailed out by IMF at astronomical rates to borrowing on the bond markets at some of the lowest rates for any countries in the world. Yeah, wasted that boom alright.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,933 ✭✭✭smurgen


    tobsey wrote: »
    Went from a massive deficit to a surplus, went from being bailed out by IMF at astronomical rates to borrowing on the bond markets at some of the lowest rates for any countries in the world. Yeah, wasted that boom alright.

    Ya good but could have been better. We've under spent in key areas that would secure our competitiveness into the future e.g housing and public transport and utilities. If we're looking at the return on investment for our public spending we should have absolutely pumped money into some of these areas as they could give us a good return even in a recession. If you've time have a read of this. It's pretty interesting stuff. U.S centric but we can use some of the principles being discussed.

    https://www.epi.org/publication/the-potential-macroeconomic-benefits-from-increasing-infrastructure-investment/


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 71,051 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    tobsey wrote: »
    You’re point on this is pure nonsense Francie. Do you think FG said to their voters who were leaving them, here Vote for FF so?? If the voters went to FF instead of the other parties that’s the fault of those parties. I’m sure you’d be delighted if FG had held on to them and kept FF and SF small alright.

    That is just naivety.

    FG and FF know they have to work together ultimately.

    It's a bit like two parachutists colliding midair and getting their chutes tangled, with the result there is only one chute working. Both will cling to one another not willing to let go to see who's chute is the damaged one.

    Same as the two power swap parties...they know ultimately one of them is going down, they just don't know which one.

    They will merge closer and closer together as a result...they are now about to get as close to one another without actually merging.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,933 ✭✭✭smurgen


    Mortelaro wrote: »
    In my opinion, just going on your posts,you do not have a masters degree in Economics.

    Okay so tell me the parts of economic theory that my posts are in contraction of?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,933 ✭✭✭smurgen


    I wonder will Harris be turning attention to the nursing homes now that inaction have lead to numerous deaths? Couldn't even talk to our reply to the head of the nursing home body until the body count got too high to ignore. How in God's name were the nursing home visitations kept open for so long?

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/nursing-homes-body-wants-urgent-meeting-with-simon-harris-990134.html


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,431 ✭✭✭Mortelaro


    smurgen wrote: »
    I wonder will Harris be turning attention to the nursing homes now that inaction have lead to numerous deaths? Couldn't even talk to our reply to the head of the nursing home body until the body count got too high to ignore. How in God's name were the nursing home visitations kept open for so long?

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/nursing-homes-body-wants-urgent-meeting-with-simon-harris-990134.html

    Jaysis..that's 3 days old

    It's the job of the CMO and NPHET
    Heres today's latest ...

    https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2020/0404/1128463-covid19-coronavirus-ireland/


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,933 ✭✭✭smurgen


    Mortelaro wrote: »
    Jaysis..that's 3 days old

    It's the job of the CMO and NPHET
    Heres today's latest ...

    https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2020/0404/1128463-covid19-coronavirus-ireland/

    So he’s days late implementing these time sensitive measures it seems. Important we document the timelines for when the dust settles here. Like here where on March 11th the government stance was it was too early to ban visitors after nursing homes Ireland had put in restrictions on visits. http://www.redfm.ie/news/coronavirus/department-of-health-blanket-ban-on-visitors-to-hospitals-and-nursing-homes-amid-coronavirus-unnecessary/


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,431 ✭✭✭Mortelaro


    smurgen wrote: »
    So he’s days late implementing these time sensitive measures it seems. Important we document the timelines for when the dust settles here. Like here where on March 11th the government stance was it was too early to ban visitors after nursing homes Ireland had put in restrictions on visits. http://www.redfm.ie/news/coronavirus/department-of-health-blanket-ban-on-visitors-to-hospitals-and-nursing-homes-amid-coronavirus-unnecessary/

    You need to contact NPHET about that
    Did Fine Gael murder your mother or something?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,124 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    Mortelaro wrote: »
    In my opinion, just going on your posts,you do not have a masters degree in Economics.

    I think it’s very unfair to claim something like that. If you don’t agree with points or think it’s misinterpreted, use that to argue. But to say that someone lied about something that could be an integral part of who they are isn’t nice. I have had similar things said to me and it really hurt. Especially with what is happening, no one knows the impact it can have.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,933 ✭✭✭smurgen


    joeguevara wrote: »
    I think it’s very unfair to claim something like that. If you don’t agree with points or think it’s misinterpreted, use that to argue. But to say that someone lied about something that could be an integral part of who they are isn’t nice. I have had similar things said to me and it really hurt. Especially with what is happening, no one knows the impact it can have.

    I'm getting a good laugh off this. The FG fanboys questioning my educational background while a completely inept, disaster after disaster health minister who's also a college dropout,no education in the area he works in and zero experience gets their support :) couldn't make this stuff up.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,159 ✭✭✭declanflynn


    That is just naivety.

    FG and FF know they have to work together ultimately.

    It's a bit like two parachutists colliding midair and getting their chutes tangled, with the result there is only one chute working. Both will cling to one another not willing to let go to see who's chute is the damaged one.

    Same as the two power swap parties...they know ultimately one of them is going down, they just don't know which one.

    They will merge closer and closer together as a result...they are now about to get as close to one another without actually merging.
    that's because the left have never had the numbers to form a government, so really it's the Irish people who are to blame


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,124 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    smurgen wrote: »
    I'm getting a good laugh off this. The FG fanboys questioning my educational background while a completely inept, disaster after disaster health minister who's also a college dropout,no education in the area he works in and zero experience gets their support :) couldn't make this stuff up.

    I don’t care which side a person is on but I find it below the belt for anyone to openly declare that someone is lying about their education or job. Obviously if someone claims to be something when they clearly aren’t is a different matter. But if someone is being genuine then it’s below the belt. People can be so cruel and accusing someone of being a liar is so hurtful.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 71,051 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    that's because the left have never had the numbers to form a government, so really it's the Irish people who are to blame

    No...but so inept have the recent incarnations of FF and FG been, that we know where it is headed.

    I reckoned before the crisis that the best out come from and indecisive election was FG/FF ending up coalescing because that garunteed change next time around. I still might get that outcome.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,211 ✭✭✭✭Suckit


    that's because the left have never had the numbers to form a government, so really it's the Irish people who are to blame
    Sorry, but how does that make sense?
    To blame for what exactly?

    FG never hold on the majority vote per party, with 2 exceptions, and both of those times were exceptional circumstances.
    FG know that, and it is likely why they strike so many deals when they are in, which in turn leads to their majority vote per party dropping again. If they moved forward and looked barely like they were in for the good of the country, they would do better. Their arrogance doesn't help either.
    They expect those votes to go back to FF though, that's why their knickers got so twisted this time. FF historically have majority vote per party until they mess up, then FG come in and look after their seats for a while.
    Now there is another contender for that seat and FG can't handle it. They are trying everything that they can, unfortunately for them, they have the most useless lot calling the shots, in their entire existence.
    I believe that they will live to regret not going with Coveney, for a long time to come.
    Leo and his spin team are looking good right now, but it won't stay that way.
    The reality is, another party were always going to come in and shake things up. It mightn't happen yet, but it's not long away, whoever that party may be.
    My money is on FG being the biggest casualty.

    If you want to blame someone for the state of politics and the country, blame the take-all parties. They have had a century of mistakes forgiven over and over again. Still they take.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,945 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Suckit wrote: »
    Sorry, but how does that make sense?
    To blame for what exactly?

    FG never hold on the majority vote, with 2 exceptions, and both of those times were exceptional circumstances.
    FG know that, and it is likely why they strike so many deals when they are in, which in turn leads to their majority vote dropping again. If they moved forward and looked barely like they were in for the good of the country, they would do better. Their arrogance doesn't help either.
    They expect those votes to go back to FF though, that's why their knickers got so twisted this time. FF historically have majority vote until they mess up, then FG come in and look after their seats for a while.
    Now there is another contender for that seat and FG can't handle it. They are trying everything that they can, unfortunately for them, they have the most useless lot calling the shots, in their entire existence.
    I believe that they will live to regret not going with Coveney, for a long time to come.
    Leo and his spin team are looking good right now, but it won't stay that way.
    The reality is, another party were always going to come in and shake things up. It mightn't happen yet, but it's not long away, whoever that party may be.
    My money is on FG being the biggest casualty.

    If you want to blame someone for the state of politics and the country, blame the take-all parties. They have had a century of mistakes forgiven over and over again. Still they take.

    FG have never ever had a majority vote in this country.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,945 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    smurgen wrote: »
    The world financial markets have seen their biggest bull period ever. And as a small open economy it's a case of a rising tide lifting all boats.

    Have a read of this as it highlights alot of how I feel and my worries on how we run the economy. I find the National Competitiveness Council reports good and I'd love to see the Department of Finance pay more attention to them.

    https://www.rte.ie/news/2018/1219/1018003-competitiveness-threat/


    I agree with a lot in that, but there is one party who promised to do the exact opposite of what is recommended by the NCC, and that is Sinn Fein. They have promised to narrow the tax base, increase uncompetitive public expenditure, increase pensions costs.

    You cannot seriously talk about the NCC warnings one minute and say you support Sinn Fein the next. That is just silliness.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,211 ✭✭✭✭Suckit


    blanch152 wrote: »
    FG have never ever had a majority vote in this country.
    Semantics.

    Most votes per party.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,124 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    blanch152 wrote: »
    FG have never ever had a majority vote in this country.

    I never actually new that.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,945 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Suckit wrote: »
    Semantics.

    Most votes per party.

    Look at your post again, it starts from the concept that Fine Gael have never retained the majority vote. Given what you wrote, it isn’t semantics to point out that the starting point of your post is completely made up.



    Suckit wrote: »
    Sorry, but how does that make sense?
    To blame for what exactly?

    FG never hold on the majority vote, with 2 exceptions, and both of those times were exceptional circumstances.
    FG know that, and it is likely why they strike so many deals when they are in, which in turn leads to their majority vote dropping again. If they moved forward and looked barely like they were in for the good of the country, they would do better. Their arrogance doesn't help either.
    They expect those votes to go back to FF though, that's why their knickers got so twisted this time. FF historically have majority vote until they mess up, then FG come in and look after their seats for a while.
    Now there is another contender for that seat and FG can't handle it. They are trying everything that they can, unfortunately for them, they have the most useless lot calling the shots, in their entire existence.
    I believe that they will live to regret not going with Coveney, for a long time to come.
    Leo and his spin team are looking good right now, but it won't stay that way.
    The reality is, another party were always going to come in and shake things up. It mightn't happen yet, but it's not long away, whoever that party may be.
    My money is on FG being the biggest casualty.

    If you want to blame someone for the state of politics and the country, blame the take-all parties. They have had a century of mistakes forgiven over and over again. Still they take.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,211 ✭✭✭✭Suckit


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Look at your post again, it starts from the concept that Fine Gael have never retained the majority vote. Given what you wrote, it isn’t semantics to point out that the starting point of your post is completely made up.
    Made up?
    If it makes you feel better I am happy to change it to majority vote per party.



    What I wrote is correct otherwise.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,164 ✭✭✭efanton


    Suckit wrote: »
    Sorry, but how does that make sense?
    To blame for what exactly?

    FG never hold on the majority vote, with 2 exceptions, and both of those times were exceptional circumstances.
    FG know that, and it is likely why they strike so many deals when they are in, which in turn leads to their majority vote dropping again. If they moved forward and looked barely like they were in for the good of the country, they would do better. Their arrogance doesn't help either.
    They expect those votes to go back to FF though, that's why their knickers got so twisted this time. FF historically have majority vote until they mess up, then FG come in and look after their seats for a while.
    Now there is another contender for that seat and FG can't handle it. They are trying everything that they can, unfortunately for them, they have the most useless lot calling the shots, in their entire existence.
    I believe that they will live to regret not going with Coveney, for a long time to come.
    Leo and his spin team are looking good right now, but it won't stay that way.
    The reality is, another party were always going to come in and shake things up. It mightn't happen yet, but it's not long away, whoever that party may be.
    My money is on FG being the biggest casualty.

    If you want to blame someone for the state of politics and the country, blame the take-all parties. They have had a century of mistakes forgiven over and over again. Still they take.

    Totally agree with almost all of what you have said there.

    But I think there is another dimension that is missed and likely to change once this pandemic is over. Too many governments, including ours, have relied too much on private companies to fill the holes of government failure to act over the last two or three decades. This mad idea that a free market will somehow benefit all of mankind, where the wealth will somehow filter down to even the poorest, and that companies and businesses will act in a socially responsible way is and has been a terrible way for any government to base policies on.

    There is no such thing as a free market, every stock exchange, banking system, and debt management system in the world is highly regulated for very good reason. Unregulated greed would utterly destroy the social fabric of most countries and no doubt increases the rate of poverty and risk of wars.

    After this crisis almost every country in the world will have racked up massive debt. The smart ones will avoid any form of austerity at all costs if possible those that stick to their existing dogma are likely to make a bad situation even worse.

    Does that mean we get rid of capitalism and replace it with socialism, absolutely not.
    Competition in the markets is a good thing, it drives new technologies, innovation, job creation and to a large degree an increased standard of living.
    What it does mean though that governments are going to have to take a lot more responsibility and have a far more hands on approach. Had Simon Harris asked the HSE to put in the systems and processes that have been put in in a matter of weeks two years ago everyone including the government would have said it was impossible and unworkable. Yet it was not impossible and to be fair to the government these measures by and large appear to be working.

    No longer will it be accepted by the electorate that the market will fill or supply any niche left unattended by government. FG and FF have left the developers to provide for housing in this country for the last two decades and what has that achieved. Not a lot apart from a small number of property developers becoming extremely rich and them building the very homes that most people cannot afford to buy. Instead of building the small starter homes as was the trend in the 60's and 70's in the UK and other bigger and growing economies they still insist on building the traditional 3 bed semi with gardens, drive or garage not because that is what is needed but that is what returns the higher profit margin. This will continue unless a government intervenes in some way.

    After the first world war the USA did something truly remarkable. They assumed they were starting with a clean sheet. Austerity was not an option in the traditional sense so instead they spent serious amounts of money kick starting an infrastructure boom the likes the world had never seen. New roads, dams, housing, and public infrastructure of any kind was invested in and although it created huge debt it also created a massive amount of jobs, a huge industrial base and kick started the USA into becoming a world economic superpower. Meanwhile the UK, France and other European countries stuck to the same old formula's and the economies and empires they once had crumbled to dust.

    My personal biggest fear is that whatever government is formed they will try applying the same old formula's to a totally new reality, and it will inevitably go horribly wrong.
    I truly cannot see FG being able to make that jump of ditching old formulas and dogma's that have almost become a religious mantra to them. I worry that FF have no plan or vision of what they would like to achieve, simply being in government appears to be their only ambition, but once there they seem to tackle problems with a scatter gun approach never actually fixing anything but spending huge amounts of money while they are at it.

    If I was in FG HQ at the moment I would be seriously talking about a unity government.
    If they go ahead with this coalition I cannot see either FF or FG benefiting, and worse I cant see the country benefiting.
    Things are starting to go wrong for the FG dream already. 15,000 test a day promised by the health minister, yet more than a week later only 1500 tests being performed. Offering €210 a week as compensation for people losing their jobs when it was obvious this amount was no where near sufficient.
    Yet the really difficult and expensive decisions are ahead. Do they really want to self implode as FF did after the banking crisis? All it will take is one more serious mistake.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,614 ✭✭✭IngazZagni


    Suckit wrote: »
    Made up?
    If it makes you feel better I am happy to change it to majority vote per party.



    What I wrote is correct otherwise.

    On this point. How often has a political party in Government increased there vote whilst in government? I’d bet it’s quite rare.

    I know across the Irish Sea the Tories managed it recently quite emphatically.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,211 ✭✭✭✭Suckit


    IngazZagni wrote: »
    On this point. How often has a political party in Government increased there vote whilst in government? I’d bet it’s quite rare.

    I know across the Irish Sea the Tories managed it recently quite emphatically.
    I cannot comment on countries in general, not even sure why I would be expected to.
    In Ireland however, it wouldn't be common, but it doesn't meant that they have dropped so much that they have lost their majority seats.
    FF have done it at least 6 times.
    FG are only employed by the people to clean up after a mess, and both the people and FG have seemed okay with that for years.
    Now though, the people might turn to a different party, as FG aren't as effective at cleaning up as they used to be.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,211 ✭✭✭✭Suckit


    efanton wrote: »
    After the first world war the USA did something truly remarkable. They assumed they were starting with a clean sheet. Austerity was not an option in the traditional sense so instead they spent serious amounts of money kick starting a infrastructure boom the likes the world had never seen. New roads, dams, housing, and public infrastructure of any kind was invested in and although it created huge debt it also created a massive amount of jobs, a huge industrial base and kick started the USA into becoming a world economic superpower. Meanwhile the UK and France and other European countries stuck to the same old formula's and the economies and empires they once had crumbled to dust.
    I didn't want to quote your entire post as it was long (and good).

    I would love to see an injection into the infrastructure in Ireland done correctly.

    FG need to look at the way they are steadfast in their old ways of looking at and doing things. No doubt it led to their ridiculous online presence.


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