DCM 2019 Graduates: the rest of your life that happens after the marathon

Charliebull · 07-01-2020 09:44PM

Happy new year to all
Just back at it this week
Can someone explain what is meant by moderate pace in relation to very easy and what is threshold

Murph_D · 07-01-2020 10:33PM

Charliebull wrote: »

Happy new year to all
Just back at it this week
Can someone explain what is meant by moderate pace in relation to very easy and what is threshold

Moderate usually refers to the range from easy to lactate threshold (LT). Zone 3 in HR terms. Some coaches emphasize the upper end (LT) of this range. Would include marathon pace at the easier end of that range. Have a look at the HR training thread for some discussion of this.

skyblue46 · 07-01-2020 10:47PM

Charliebull wrote: »

Happy new year to all
Just back at it this week
Can someone explain what is meant by moderate pace in relation to very easy and what is threshold

Further to Murphs reply it might be worth asking where you have seen the terms? Are you following a plan that specifies using these pace ranges?

Mr. Guappa · 08-01-2020 08:41AM

If it's in the context of the grads plans, then those training paces are obtained from this calculator: https://runfastcoach.com/calc2/index.php

Just plug in a recent race time, and you'll see suggested paces under the "training paces" tab.

Charliebull · 08-01-2020 09:48AM

Further to Murphs reply it might be worth asking where you have seen the terms? Are you following a plan that specifies using these pace ranges?

It was from the Base Plan

If it's in the context of the grads plans, then those training paces are obtained from this calculator: https://runfastcoach.com/calc2/index.php

Just plug in a recent race time, and you'll see suggested paces under the "training paces" tab.

thanks I could not find that link

Moderate usually refers to the range from easy to lactate threshold (LT). Zone 3 in HR terms. Some coaches emphasize the upper end (LT) of this range. Would include marathon pace at the easier end of that range. Have a look at the HR training thread for some discussion of this.

thanks

KSU · 08-01-2020 11:08AM

Charliebull wrote: »

Further to Murphs reply it might be worth asking where you have seen the terms? Are you following a plan that specifies using these pace ranges?

It was from the Base Plan

If it's in the context of the grads plans, then those training paces are obtained from this calculator: https://runfastcoach.com/calc2/index.php

Just plug in a recent race time, and you'll see suggested paces under the "training paces" tab.

thanks I could not find that link

Moderate usually refers to the range from easy to lactate threshold (LT). Zone 3 in HR terms. Some coaches emphasize the upper end (LT) of this range. Would include marathon pace at the easier end of that range. Have a look at the HR training thread for some discussion of this.

thanks

For the Grad plan the terms are based on the calculator (plan included the original link to this calculator when created however the domain name changed months after and original link became a dead link) They don't always match up with some coaches descriptions (or indeed my own interpretations of such terms) but to keep it simple they are used so people can put in there times and what is spit out matches the aim of the sessions.

For moderate in this case it refers to a pace that is slightly slower than Marathon pace but slightly quicker than easy. Many coaches refer to this as a grey area or "junk" mileage because it falls in between the zones referred to in zone training but in recent years people's views of this pace have slowly started to change back and the merits of training at this intensity level have great benefits.

jackc101 · 12-01-2020 11:39PM

Right, I'm back to it. Took November entirely off and December wasn't much better. Had a blast running against my 3 brothers and 1 sis in law in the Clonakilty 10K
I've fed that PB into the running calculator and I think I have the base phase of the Grad plan mostly worked out, main problem is translating the terminology;

Questions
What do you get the 'MP' & '5K effort' from the training paces on https://runfastcoach.com/calc2/index.php ?
Guessing MP is roughly Easy Tempo?

DeepBlue · 13-01-2020 08:54AM

jackc101 wrote: »

Questions
What do you get the 'MP' & '5K effort' from the training paces on https://runfastcoach.com/calc2/index.php ?
Guessing MP is roughly Easy Tempo?

I think you just put in your most recent time from a race and you'll find your marathon pace and 5k pace under the Race Times tab. You then aim to hit those paces when the plan asks you to do so.*
For me MP is in the Tempo range for Training Paces and 5K effort is in the Aerobic Power range.

*Someone can correct me if I'm wrong.

skyblue46 · 13-01-2020 10:39AM

DeepBlue wrote: »

I think you just put in your most recent time from a race and you'll find your marathon pace and 5k pace under the Race Times tab. You then aim to hit those paces when the plan asks you to do so.*
For me MP is in the Tempo range for Training Paces and 5K effort is in the Aerobic Power range.

*Someone can correct me if I'm wrong.

Yep you have the right idea alright. It is however something to which some adjustments can be made to. The paces for the longer distances may be more difficult for newer runners to hit. There are very few, if any, who could actually run a marathon at the Race Times pace based on their 5k time. With DCM being so recent there would be no problem with using the pace from that as marathon pace.

Out of curiosity, what times/ distances did you put in to get your paces?

jackc101 · 13-01-2020 12:25PM

skyblue46 wrote: »

Yep you have the right idea alright. It is however something to which some adjustments can be made to. The paces for the longer distances may be more difficult for newer runners to hit. There are very few, if any, who could actually run a marathon at the Race Times pace based on their 5k time. With DCM being so recent there would be no problem with using the pace from that as marathon pace.

Out of curiosity, what times/ distances did you put in to get your paces?

What I did was enter my latest race time of 49:18 from the Clon 10 K race on the 30th of Nov into https://runfastcoach.com/calc2/index.php.
Then went to the training paces tab
That spit out training time attached

(For reference DCM 19 was 04:18:58 with a pace of 6:06 / Km or 9:51 ish per mile)

Most of the names of the paces match up ish with the Boards Graduate plan but I couldn't get the two I mentioned ('MP' & '5K effort')

If I used my DCM pace, that would put me between Easy/ Moderate and Moderate paces

KSU · 13-01-2020 12:36PM

jackc101 wrote: »

What I did was enter my latest race time of 49:18 from the Clon 10 K race on the 30th of Nov into https://runfastcoach.com/calc2/index.php.
Then went to the training paces tab
That spit out training time attached

(For reference DCM 19 was 04:18:58 with a pace of 6:06 / Km or 9:51 ish per mile)

Most of the names of the paces match up ish with the Boards Graduate plan but I couldn't get the two I mentioned ('MP' & '5K effort')

If I used my DCM pace, that would put me between Easy/ Moderate and Moderate paces

This is fine

With regards the plan MP is put as a general aim. Effectively the idea is to go from easy pace and work down to a pace a little slower than what you might view as a traditional tempo pace.

For use of the calculator you are right MP would be roughly in around Easy tempo/Tempo and AP would be in around 3k/5k but don't get too bogged down.

The progressions should be very controlled here finishing almost energised rather than feeling like you are really working. Likewise the 200's are just about turnover.

Nothing in the Base phase should feel overly hard.

Charliebull · 22-01-2020 12:57PM

the training run where you have to do 9 min easy and 1 minute flat out

stupid question

how do people work out the break up in the training plan, do ye use a stop watch for the 1m section

Treviso · 22-01-2020 03:32PM

Charliebull wrote: »

the training run where you have to do 9 min easy and 1 minute flat out

stupid question

how do people work out the break up in the training plan, do ye use a stop watch for the 1m section

Most watches allow you to create an interval/workout session by either time or distance. For Garmin devices, you can either create the session on Garmin Connect and transfer it over, or on the watch itself (depending on version I suppose)

Charliebull · 22-01-2020 03:44PM

Treviso wrote: »

Most watches allow you to create an interval/workout session by either time or distance. For Garmin devices, you can either create the session on Garmin Connect and transfer it over, or on the watch itself (depending on version I suppose)

brillant thanks, found it, learn something new everyday

had to substitute the rest with the fast pace

Charliebull · 03-02-2020 04:16PM

4 x 200m @ 5K effort in the base plan, what is the 5K effort

DeepBlue · 06-02-2020 12:31AM

Charliebull wrote: »

4 x 200m @ 5K effort in the base plan, what is the 5K effort

It's the pace you would maintain doing a 5K race assuming you've done a 5K at race effort recently.
If you haven't run a 5K relatively recently then take a recent race you have done and use the tinman calculator to get your race pace for 5K and apply that to the plan.

Charliebull · 19-02-2020 10:19AM

8 x 1min hills, how exactly does this work (now on the 10K-HM plan)

what pace do you run up the hills

do you need to find a hill that is equivalent length to 1 min run at selected pace

rest, is this jog or walk back down the hill

KSU · 19-02-2020 11:43AM

Charliebull wrote: »

8 x 1min hills, how exactly does this work (now on the 10K-HM plan)

what pace do you run up the hills

do you need to find a hill that is equivalent length to 1 min run at selected pace

rest, is this jog or walk back down the hill

These should be based on effort - hard up hill and easy back down. Ideally a very slow jog back should have you recovered somewhat but this depends on the effort put in on the uphill if run to hard you may need a walk back down recovery

Ideally you want to aim to set a mark in the first one (provided you don't go too hard) and do your best to replicate this distance covered on each rep. It should get hard to do as the session goes on.

1 min hills should be anywhere from 150-300m. Focus on trying to run fast but with good form. The effort will take care of itself.

jackc101 · 30-03-2020 11:28AM

Hello folks, this thread has been a bit quiet so a quick question;

I'm following the boards intermediate plan (About to start week 6, see here)
With it set to target Cork Marathon on 31st of May. Obviously that's postponed now. My question is, should I keep following the ramp up that plan follows (what I've been doing since the announcement) and then keep it ticking over (?) or revert to the base and then ramp up again for the (projected) September running. All suggestions welcome

Treviso · 30-03-2020 10:29PM

jackc101 wrote: »

Hello folks, this thread has been a bit quiet so a quick question;

I'm following the boards intermediate plan (About to start week 6, see here)
With it set to target Cork Marathon on 31st of May. Obviously that's postponed now. My question is, should I keep following the ramp up that plan follows (what I've been doing since the announcement) and then keep it ticking over (?) or revert to the base and then ramp up again for the (projected) September running. All suggestions welcome

What the plan for end of the year, are you doing DCM? It might be difficult to complete that intermediate plan, have no marathon to do at the end of it and them do the exact same training plan again for DCM.

I'm no expert but here's what I would do

- Switch to the 10k-HM plan. It will introduce an increased pace whilst also doing decent mileage.
- The quicker paces will keep you interested during this time.
- HM Plan will bring you up to end of June and that will allow you to start the Intermediate marathon plan in time for DCM

KSU · 31-03-2020 10:37AM

jackc101 wrote: »

Hello folks, this thread has been a bit quiet so a quick question;

I'm following the boards intermediate plan (About to start week 6, see here)
With it set to target Cork Marathon on 31st of May. Obviously that's postponed now. My question is, should I keep following the ramp up that plan follows (what I've been doing since the announcement) and then keep it ticking over (?) or revert to the base and then ramp up again for the (projected) September running. All suggestions welcome

Overall I would actually say the 10k-HM plan would benefit your endurance more in the long run. 1 hr 45-2 hr is enough to develop your aerobic capacity regardless of your level and without being excessively long it will allow you to recover and get good quality weekly.

The marathon plans are reliant on conditioning you to cover the distance. As such from an overall fitness perspective they are not always the most ideal training. the 10k-HM plan would be my go to for building/ maintaining good all around fitness so at the moment with none race specific work they are the perfect stop gap.

You will be able to transition between this and the Intermediate plan without a base unless you want a week or two down time mentally between the plans

jackc101 · 31-03-2020 02:44PM

Yes, the plan is Cork and then DCM
Good thinking on the 10k-HM plan, I'll switch to that this week,
that should allow 8ish weeks of the 10k-HM plan then onto the intermediate marathon plan and also keep things fresh / interesting.
Thanks Treviso & KSU

Charliebull · 03-04-2020 10:59AM

KSU wrote: »

Overall I would actually say the 10k-HM plan would benefit your endurance more in the long run. 1 hr 45-2 hr is enough to develop your aerobic capacity regardless of your level and without being excessively long it will allow you to recover and get good quality weekly.

The marathon plans are reliant on conditioning you to cover the distance. As such from an overall fitness perspective they are not always the most ideal training. the 10k-HM plan would be my go to for building/ maintaining good all around fitness so at the moment with none race specific work they are the perfect stop gap.

You will be able to transition between this and the Intermediate plan without a base unless you want a week or two down time mentally between the plans

quick question
i am in week 7 of the 10k-HM plan, but with everything the way it is at the moment i find myself usually having to drop one day every couple of weeks
would you drop one of the speed sessions or one of the 60min easy runs

great plan BTW love the varying sessions, mind you the hills are a tough one

KSU · 03-04-2020 06:55PM

Charliebull wrote: »

quick question
i am in week 7 of the 10k-HM plan, but with everything the way it is at the moment i find myself usually having to drop one day every couple of weeks
would you drop one of the speed sessions or one of the 60min easy runs

great plan BTW love the varying sessions, mind you the hills are a tough one

Glad you are enjoying it (hills never get easier unfortunately)

Ultimately while you aim to cover everything there will be missed days with everyone. Normally I would say continue the week as is and don't try to rejig.

If you do need to prioritize for most people I would say as overall aerobic development is important which means keep tipping along with the easy runs and drop to 1 hard day a week if needed. It's a it conservative but the idea is to make training manageable and allow consistency which is more important than any one session.

There are rare cases where I would advise the opposite but for most of us that is sufficient as long as it is not too regularly

Charliebull · 04-04-2020 08:02AM

KSU wrote: »

Glad you are enjoying it (hills never get easier unfortunately)

Ultimately while you aim to cover everything there will be missed days with everyone. Normally I would say continue the week as is and don't try to rejig.

If you do need to prioritize for most people I would say as overall aerobic development is important which means keep tipping along with the easy runs and drop to 1 hard day a week if needed. It's a it conservative but the idea is to make training manageable and allow consistency which is more important than any one session.

There are rare cases where I would advise the opposite but for most of us that is sufficient as long as it is not too regularly

thank you, very helpful info as always

one other, what is 10 x 300@1mile

skyblue46 · 04-04-2020 09:10AM

Charliebull wrote: »

thank you, very helpful info as always

one other, what is 10 x 300@1mile

That's 10 X 300m runs at a pace you could hold for a mile. It's very short for the watches to be accurate so just go by how it feels. Just think to yourself "could I keep up this pace for a mile" It won't be a hard sprint.

Charliebull · 08-04-2020 06:44AM

lesson from yesterdays @300 session

set your watch before you go
mine is set in miles not km, so was quickly trying to work out what was 300m in miles mid stride, anyway picked a figure and went with it
realised when i finished i had been doing 650m distance , explained why session felt so tough

these 60min easy runs are actually enjoyable, something peaceful about a early morning run as the sun comes up, maybe i need to increase the pace on them

anyway the HM pace for the next session, is it a target pace i use or a pace based on tinman

skyblue46 · 08-04-2020 07:34AM

Charliebull wrote: »

lesson from yesterdays @300 session

set your watch before you go
mine is set in miles not km, so was quickly trying to work out what was 300m in miles mid stride, anyway picked a figure and went with it
realised when i finished i had been doing 650m distance , explained why session felt so tough

these 60min easy runs are actually enjoyable, something peaceful about a early morning run as the sun comes up, maybe i need to increase the pace on them

anyway the HM pace for the next session, is it a target pace i use or a pace based on tinman

I wouldn't use a target pace. Base it on as recent a race time as you can. When you use the table just go to the race times tab and use the pace from your predicted half time or thereabouts. It should be between tempo and threshold pace on the training paces chart you are already using.

Then again, if you were actually able to hit 10*650m off 1 min at a guesstimate 1 mile pace you are probably setting your paces a little on the slow side. If you like you could throw up the race time you are using to calculate your training paces.

Charliebull · 08-04-2020 07:53AM

skyblue46 wrote: »

I wouldn't use a target pace. Base it on as recent a race time as you can. When you use the table just go to the race times tab and use the pace from your predicted half time or thereabouts. It should be between tempo and threshold pace on the training paces chart you are already using.

Then again, if you were actually able to hit 10*650m off 1 min at a guesstimate 1 mile pace you are probably setting your paces a little on the slow side. If you like you could throw up the race time you are using to calculate your training paces.

the last couple were tough TBH and pace slipped a little, but was holding a decent steady pace for the first 8,

i am using a time from a 5k i did a few years ago which would not be my HM time from last year or the DCM pace (both were slower) but I have done the 6 week base plan and 7 weeks into the 10K HM plan and i have noticed my fitness and speed have really improved.

py · 28-04-2020 09:20AM

Couple of questions:

1) Ok to use the boards 5Km TT time for calculating efforts? I'm assuming so but wanted to be sure.

2) For a progression run which states you go to MP, should you be using the MP from the calculator or a most recent marathon effort? MP from the calculator seems a little fast for me if I'm to use the time from Q1 above.

DCM 2019 Graduates: the rest of your life that happens after the marathon

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