CoVid19 Part XI - 2,615 in ROI (46 deaths) 410 in NI (21 deaths)(29/03)OP upd 28/03

YFlyer · 29-03-2020 10:50AM

Why were passenger planes used and not cargo to pick up medical supplies?

paul71 · 29-03-2020 10:51AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Because people like to cherry pick figures, which suit their arguments, rather than put forward a balanced and well investigated argument.

That would take effort and may not agree with their mindset.

Now, do I think our health service is underfunded? yes
Do I think that most of that underfunding is caused by administrative black holes? yes

Is all of my opinion from anecdotal evidence? Very much yes, but at least I can see/admit this.

Do I think that the HSE needs a proper audit, with appropriate powers of investigation, with a guaranteed action based on results? Yes

Will this ever happen? No, seen as political suicide.

I cherry picked nothing in fact I did the exact opposite I practically ignored the 160 odd countries below us. You just choose to ignore simple facts because it does not suit you.

29-03-2020 10:51AM

Padre_Pio wrote: »

Wash your hands before putting it on.
Wash your hands after disposing of it.

Change your mask regularly.
Never touch it, otherwise you need to change it.

People aren't doing this.

You completely forgot to mention that men must shave first.
Washing your hands before taking it off.
You've not discussed safe disposal.

While you are out and about and you touch the mask (and you will), how do you propose changing it and washing hands immediately?

They are made for use in controlled environments, with ample access to facilities (changing, cleaning, training). Joe Public has none of these for a trip to the shops

all about the mane · 29-03-2020 10:51AM

Coyote wrote: »

A total of 11 million masks, one million face shields and one million goggles for workers are on order.

https://www.thejournal.ie/hse-coronavirus-tests-5054225-Mar2020/

this brings up an intresting questions what are they going to use 11 million mask for, can't be for the HSE can it?
send them out to every house in Ireland?

Coyote

yes, the masks are for the HSE. not the public

Ficheall · 29-03-2020 10:52AM

Roger_007 wrote: »

The guy I was listening has analysed the actual data which he has access to. The rest of us are just listening to anecdotal evidence and jumping to conclusions.

The "boffin" you were listening to, whom you can't name has access to the "actual data".
This sounds pretty damn anecdotal to me.

29-03-2020 10:53AM

paul71 wrote: »

I cherry picked nothing in fact I did the exact opposite I practically ignored the 160 odd countries below us. You just choose to ignore simple facts because it does not suit you.

No, I asked you why you chose a country with 14 times our population and you got tetchy.

I even said that doing a more like for like comparison would help your argument (it does).
You seem to not understand why procurement costs would affect the figures drastically.

And that is just the equipment, medicines, capital issues faced by the HSE due to our geographical isolation to population issue

caveat emptor · 29-03-2020 10:53AM

all about the mane wrote: »

Seriously. Quoting some bullsh1t twitter account. Drawing the conclusion that the graph you have up is laughable.

Really? You are clearly more sophisticated than most. My apologies. Here's a literature review. Let me know what you think. You do know what that is right?

Lavinia · 29-03-2020 10:53AM

all about the mane wrote: »

where did I call anyone a moron?

i didn't say you did, but some of those who are defending that opinion

eg. like this one below

Deleted User wrote: »

No, they are not. They are effective in clinical setting at preventing aerosol particles.

Morons touching their masks, mouth, nose, surfaces etc will mean masks are less then useless. They become dangerous in giving said morons a false sense of security.

depending on what you do and how you do it >> mask can be helpful
calling other people 'morons' >> not helpful.

YFlyer · 29-03-2020 10:53AM

Kerry25x wrote: »

From looking at videos in other countries it looks like all covid patients are housed on wards together and staff can put on their PPE and leave it on. It's not like that here, not yet at least.

We have single rooms with covid positive patients on wards that also keep general patients. So we can't just walk up the corridor in all our PPE, everything needs to come off and be disposed of when we leave that patients room.

Also, all the suspected cases, of which there is more than confirmed cases, need masks worn when attending to them. So, we do need a lot of masks.

Where are they mixing general patients with covid positive patients?

Kerry25x · 29-03-2020 10:55AM

YFlyer wrote: »

Where are they mixing general patients with covid positive patients?

They are not mixed, they're in isolation rooms.

all about the mane · 29-03-2020 10:55AM

Lavinia wrote: »

i didn't say you did, but some of those who are defending that opinion

eg. like this one below

depending on what you do and how you do it >> mask can be helpful
calling other people 'morons' >> not helpful.

The effect of a mask is negligible.

29-03-2020 10:56AM

paul71 wrote: »

They do stack up to countries of similar, in fact they exceed them, seriously did you not read what you quoted?

Did I say that they did not? I said that it was stupid to compare us to Germany, when there were much better analogues.

Again, you're welcome

caveat emptor · 29-03-2020 10:56AM

Deleted User wrote: »

You completely forgot to mention that men must shave first.
Washing your hands before taking it off.
You've not discussed safe disposal.

While you are out and about and you touch the mask (and you will), how do you propose changing it and washing hands immediately?

They are made for use in controlled environments, with ample access to facilities (changing, cleaning, training). Joe Public has none of these for a trip to the shops

Men should shave anyway. I only grow a beard when I'm lazy :cool:

29-03-2020 10:57AM

caveat emptor wrote: »

Men should shave anyway. I only grow a beard when I'm lazy :cool:

That is your personal choice. Many like beards and stubble, I've seen people wearing masks over facial hair, makes them useless.

caveat emptor · 29-03-2020 10:58AM

Lavinia wrote: »

I can read the WHO website,

but if you - as some know-it-all here - are basing your ''opinion'' on premises that all people are morons (their words not mine) then we obviously have nothing to talk about

in other words - masks are effective if handled properly

This goes against our guidelines. The gestapo will be around shortly.

Akrasia · 29-03-2020 10:58AM

Bob24 wrote: »

The Korean professor’s interview a few pages back agrees with what a few of us have been saying. Western governments and the WHO are saying mask shouldn’t be worn by the general public because they know they are in short supply and thus should be reserved for medical staff. It actually makes sense as medical staff is very exposed and if they become ill and can’t work it will exacerbate the over saturation of or health systems.

But at the end of the day their wording is bending the truth. The reality isn’t that masks are useless for the general public, but rather that with the limited supply we have we should reserve them for the most critical uses. So essentially as a policy it makes sense to reserve masks for medical staff, but the way Western government and the WHO word that policy it is just a manner for our governments to sugarcoat their lack of planning and our inability in the west to provide masks in sufficient quantities (as opposed to many Asian countries).

Masks are useless at protecting yourself from the virus in a community setting, they can help prevent it from spreading if sick people wear them but it’s about as effective as coughing or sneezing onto your elbow instead of directly into the air

Covering your face with a scarf or wearing a mask will protect others from you, but not you from them.

Surgeons wear masks to protect their patients from Their own germs
In Asia it is considered very rude to cough in public without a mask on. The masks are to keep sick people from spreading their disease to others

When dealing with very infectious diseases it’s the aseptic technique as well as more specialized PPE that helps prevent infection

Ficheall · 29-03-2020 10:58AM

all about the mane wrote: »

Seriously. Quoting some bullsh1t twitter account. Drawing the conclusion that the graph you have up is laughable.

Oh, I could do with a laugh. Please explain why drawing said conclusion from the graph is laughable?

Lavinia · 29-03-2020 10:58AM

all about the mane wrote: »

The effect of a mask is negligible.

i rest my case.

caveat emptor · 29-03-2020 10:59AM

Deleted User wrote: »

That is your personal choice. Many like beards and stubble, I've seen people wearing masks over facial hair, makes them useless.

So because you saw someone with a beard masks don't work. Right. I saw someone drive a car into a lamppost. Cars don't work.

29-03-2020 10:59AM

Lavinia wrote: »

i didn't say you did, but some of those who are defending that opinion

eg. like this one below

depending on what you do and how you do it >> mask can be helpful
calling other people 'morons' >> not helpful.

I called no individual a moron. I called the public morons and, generally, we are.

paul71 · 29-03-2020 10:59AM

Deleted User wrote: »

No, I asked you why you chose a country with 14 times our population and you got tetchy.

I even said that doing a more like for like comparison would help your argument (it does).
You seem to not understand why procurement costs would affect the figures drastically.

Iceland, Denmark, Finland all below us, all should have procurement costs higher than us for medical devices and pharamacueticals given they are manufactured here. Procurement cost is lack of will in management of the budget to tackle those costs which if addressed would save money.

We still spend more, it is badly managed not underfunded. You got tetchy because facts don't support your arguement, therefore you choose to ignore them. I didn't I simply presented the facts.

Snipp · 29-03-2020 11:00AM

The bickering on this thread is getting a little ridiculous. It should be a medium for constructive debate and discussion, not morons arguing over semantics.

Wibbs · 29-03-2020 11:00AM

all about the mane wrote: »

You may be able to read it but it seems you don't understand it. It says only people caring for a suspect/confirmed covid19 person should wear them. Do you see that?

Read again. It also says people who are sick or suspect they are already sick should wear one. And why should both those groups wear a mask? Because they lower the risk of transmission of disease in both directions. But apparently as if by magic this risk mitigation vanishes among the general public in an epidemic?

I would see masks as like condoms. Yes they're not close to 100% and too many don't know how to use them which can lead to complacency which leads to screaming babies and/or the clap, but they're a damn sight better than going in raw or practising withdrawal.

all about the mane · 29-03-2020 11:00AM

Ficheall wrote: »

Oh, I could do with a laugh. Please explain why drawing said conclusion from the graph is laughable?

okay, at its very simplest, it suggests that the only differencebetween what those 3 countries are doing and what everyone else is doing is that some people in those countries wear masks. laughable

1800_Ladladlad · 29-03-2020 11:01AM

Because of the situation in the Netherlands with the PPE being recalled due to them being ineffective, should Ireland not be testing the first cargo of PPE they bring back from China before making the continuous back and forth trips with useless and ineffective equipment?

voluntary · 29-03-2020 11:01AM

I would honestly feel much safer going shopping if everyone around wore masks. Sneeze <8 meters away can pass you the virus the new research shows. If everyone wore masks sneezing or coughing in public wouldn't be that scary. Even healthy people sneeze on occasion.

Rob A. Bank · 29-03-2020 11:01AM

Deleted User wrote: »

I called no individual a moron. I called the public morons and, generally, we are.

I wonder why the 'powers that be' shills on this board feel the need to be so rude ?

29-03-2020 11:02AM

caveat emptor wrote: »

So because you saw someone with a beard masks don't work. Right. I saw someone drive a car into a lamppost. Cars don't work.

No I've said that the "instructions" there did not state to be clean shaven. Would members of the general public know that even a day or two worth of stubble makes them useless?

Oh and one quick question, for all.

Why are healthcare workers getting such high rates of infection if the masks were effective protection, for the wearer?

caveat emptor · 29-03-2020 11:02AM

Akrasia wrote: »

Masks are useless at protecting yourself from the virus in a community setting, they can help prevent it from spreading if sick people wear them but it’s about as effective as coughing or sneezing onto your elbow instead of directly into the air

Covering your face with a scarf or wearing a mask will protect others from you, but not you from them.

Surgeons wear masks to protect their patients from Their own germs
In Asia it is considered very rude to cough in public without a mask on. The masks are to keep sick people from spreading their disease to others

When dealing with very infectious diseases it’s the aseptic technique as well as more specialized PPE that helps prevent infection

I don't know who you are. I'm with Vlad on this one. He's advised by biological warfare experts.

all about the mane · 29-03-2020 11:02AM

Wibbs wrote: »

Read again. It also says people who are sick or suspect they are already sick should wear one. And why should both those groups wear a mask? Because they lower the risk of transmission of disease in both directions. But apparently as if by magic this risk mitigation vanishes among the general public in an epidemic?

I would see masks as like condoms. Yes they're not close to 100% and too many don't know how to use them which can lead to complacency which leads to screaming babies and/or the clap, but they're a damn sight better than going in raw or practising withdrawal.

I made the point earlier that is you are covid19 positive it helps to wear a mask. For everyone else, not for you.

CoVid19 Part XI - 2,615 in ROI (46 deaths) 410 in NI (21 deaths)(29/03)*OP upd 28/03*

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CoVid19 Part XI - 2,615 in ROI (46 deaths) 410 in NI (21 deaths)(29/03)OP upd 28/03