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CoVid19 Part XI - 2,615 in ROI (46 deaths) 410 in NI (21 deaths)(29/03)*OP upd 28/03*

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Comments

  • #7232
    Mervyn Skidmore
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,210 ✭✭✭Mervyn Skidmore


    Marlow wrote: »
    Updated list on essential services can be found here:

    https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/dfeb8f-list-of-essential-service-providers-under-new-public-health-guidelin/

    /M

    I don't see the Courts on this list. It says "emergency call answering service to ensure administration of justice". Not sure how they can close the courts. There'd be people in custody, childcare orders, domestic violence orders etc.


  • #7233
    spookwoman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,059 ✭✭✭✭spookwoman


    https://twitter.com/newschambers/status/1243976016755863553?s=20


  • #7234
    Gretas Gonna Get Ya!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭Gretas Gonna Get Ya!


    Elle Tasty Gymnasium wrote: »
    The complete restrictions, in my humble opinion, came at the right time. We have only a finite number of Gardaí. We rely on each other to self-govern. The Gardaí are by no means omnipresent. In order to get people to self-govern, there needs to be a sufficient buy-in from the citizens of Ireland. Otherwise, the whole intervention falls flat on its face. Fear incites people to buy-in. Even up until late afternoon on Boards, there were people berating the social restrictions. Could you imagine how defiant people would have been if they tried to completely restrict earlier than they did? And with regard to nursing homes, people would have cited inhumanity at the inability to visit loved-ones. People would have thought that the government was overreacting. They would have found ways to flout the rules. And inevitably as people started to fall sick with CoVID (inevitable, as people will always break rules), people would have dismissed the restrictions as ineffectual.

    There's no doubt in my mind, they should have locked down earlier...

    3 weeks ago, they weren't even sure if they should cancel paddy's day! This was a big indicator to me (and others) that they didn't really fully grasp the seriousness of what was happening elsewhere in Europe!

    But there is no point in dwelling on the past. Hopefully they grasp how bad things are now, and we still might have a chance of not turning into the next Italy or Spain...

    It all really depends how well we all play our part throughout the country. We've all got to play a blinder now, collectively as a nation. I am confident that we can do it - I see lots of people making a real genuine effort.


  • #7235
    Nonoperational
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,401 ✭✭✭Nonoperational


    There seems to be a lot of commentary here about ICU etc.

    A nursing home patient over 80 would rarely get admitted to ICU before this. Some of this is the patients own wishes, some is avoiding futile treatment. Ventilating older frail patients rarely ends up with a good results.


  • #7236
    igCorcaigh
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 12,455 Mod ✭✭✭✭igCorcaigh


    Professor Moriarty wrote: »
    It's many things but it's not genocide. It's triage due to an unexpected pandemic, unprepared health services and sometimes poor political decision making.

    We knew a pandemic was due. I wouldn't say it was unexpected.


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  • #7237
    New Home
    Moderators, Arts Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 78,241 Mod ✭✭✭✭New Home


    Professor Moriarty wrote: »
    It's many things but it's not genocide. It's triage due to an unexpected pandemic, unprepared health services and sometimes poor political decision making.

    Triage gets into play before you get a bed into ICU, not after.
    Deleted User wrote: »
    Great. So not only are the front line workers having to put up with a high chance of catching the virus, now they will look forward to a trial in the Hague when it's all over.

    Give this person a strawman!
    Spanish Eyes wrote: »
    Similar choices have been made in every country where the virus is rampant. No country has a ventilator for each and every citizen. Never will.

    My point was that such choices are not new at all, they have been going on forever.

    Choices on this scale are new. And so far we haven't needed a ventilator for each and every citizen, but for the most part whoever needed one got it.

    Look, I'm not saying that they set out with the intention of letting every old or sick person die, but that's the end result of what's been happening for the most part. Old or frail people may not be a nation, but they are a class of people, and they're being culled because of the circumstances.


  • #7238
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,394 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    igCorcaigh wrote: »
    We knew a pandemic was due. I wouldn't say it was unexpected.

    When did we know that? Didn't hear anyone talking about it until January.


  • #7239
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 2,016 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Hobgoblin11 wrote: »
    We need to be able to conduct semis, it’s essential

    A semi is about all I've been able to conduct lately. I blame the stress.


  • #7240
    Roger_007
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,886 ✭✭✭✭Roger_007


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Great. So not only are the front line workers having to put up with a high chance of catching the virus, now they will look forward to a trial in the Hague when it's all over.

    I now believe that one of the symptoms of NOT having the virus must be that you lose all sense of reason when discussing it.


  • #7241
    niallo27
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,139 ✭✭✭✭niallo27


    nimrod86 wrote: »
    Anyone want to take a go at explaining to me how manufacturing of semiconductors is an essential service? Please? Anyone? I work in that industry and cannot understand it myself... Almost feel sick reading it, and the thought that my co-workers are still being expected to go in.

    Well they are used in medical equipment worldwide, this may be a factor in the next year or so.


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  • #7242
    yourdeadwright
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,950 ✭✭✭✭yourdeadwright


    Have we got today's numbers yet


  • #7243
    893bet
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,766 ✭✭✭893bet


    froog wrote: »
    has it actually been confirmed the two daily spikes here were due to nursing home outbreaks? seems to be a lot of assumption going on here.

    This. Why would they all die the same day.


  • #7244
    New Home
    Moderators, Arts Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 78,241 Mod ✭✭✭✭New Home


    Nonoperational wrote: »
    There seems to be a lot of commentary here about ICU etc.

    A nursing home patient over 80 would rarely get admitted to ICU before this. Some of this is the patients own wishes, some is avoiding futile treatment. Ventilating older frail patients rarely ends up with a good results.

    The difference is that now Over 65s aren't being treated. There's a damn big difference between someone who's 65 and someone who's 85 or 95.


  • #7245
    Nermal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,836 ✭✭✭Nermal


    nimrod86 wrote: »
    Anyone want to take a go at explaining to me how manufacturing of semiconductors is an essential service? Please? Anyone? I work in that industry and cannot understand it myself... Almost feel sick reading it, and the thought that my co-workers are still being expected to go in.

    Your industry can keep dust out of a room. You should be able to manage not to be a source of many further infections.


  • #7246
    cameramonkey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,220 ✭✭✭cameramonkey


    Widdensushi wrote: »
    but the virus getting in to nursing homes skews both those figures


    We dont really know if it skews ICU numbers because we don't know if the nursing home patients made it that far.


    I suppose all the numbers are skewed .



    We dont know how many people have the virus because testing is not enough and then we had the fiasco with the system here. Do we even know how many test have been carried out and then processed?



    We don't know how many are in ICU because it seem they don't put the numbers that are actually there at the moment, they add up all that have needed ICU treatment at say that is the number. Some people must have left ICU through improvement or death. So their figure is meaningless in many ways.


    I think the HSE are being deliberately vague on some issues. They seem to answer questions about testing or equipment shortages with answers that are about what they will hope will be the situation in a day or week.


    I would like to know, how many ICU beds have we? How many test are being carried out and processed a day? How many test have been carried out? It does not seem that difficult answers those questions.


  • #7247
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 2,016 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Roger_007 wrote: »
    I now believe that one of the symptoms of NOT having the virus must be that you lose all sense of reason when discussing it.

    A little bit of irony, James. Let's not let the stiff upper lip tremble.


  • #7248
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,394 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    New Home wrote: »
    Triage gets into play before you get a bed into ICU, not after.



    Give this person a strawman!



    Choices on this scale are new. And so far we haven't needed a ventilator for each and every citizen, but for the most part whoever needed one got it.

    Look, I'm not saying that they set out with the intention of letting every old or sick person die, but that's the end result of what's been happening for the most part. Old or frail people may not be a nation, but they are a class of people, and they're being culled because of the circumstances.

    I know when triage is used. My point is that triage is not genocide. What's happening in hospitals is not genocide.


  • #7249
    BanditLuke
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,600 ✭✭✭BanditLuke


    Gretas Gonna Get Ya! wrote: »
    There's no doubt in my mind, they should have locked down earlier...

    3 weeks ago, they weren't even sure if they should cancel paddy's day! This was a big indicator to me (and others) that they didn't really fully grasp the seriousness of what was happening elsewhere in Europe!

    But there is no point in dwelling on the past. Hopefully they grasp how bad things are now, and we still might have a chance of not turning into the next Italy or Spain...

    It all really depends how well we all play our part throughout the country. We've all got to play a blinder now, collectively as a nation. I am confident that we can do it - I see lots of people making a real genuine effort.

    Absolutely and its up to us as a people to call out the ones not playing their part, the Gardaí can't do it all themselves this is a nationwide effort.


  • #7250
    con747
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,339 ✭✭✭con747


    nimrod86 wrote: »
    Anyone want to take a go at explaining to me how manufacturing of semiconductors is an essential service? Please? Anyone? I work in that industry and cannot understand it myself... Almost feel sick reading it, and the thought that my co-workers are still being expected to go in.

    Take a look here, https://www.hitachi-hightech.com/global/products/device/semiconductor/life.html

    Don't expect anything from life, just be grateful to be alive.



  • #7251
    RayCon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,942 ✭✭✭RayCon


    Nermal wrote: »
    Your industry can keep dust out of a room. You should be able to manage not to be a source of many further infections.


    Not where the staff have to de-gown , canteen, toilets etc.


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  • #7252
    Inquitus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,776 ✭✭✭✭Inquitus


    ifElseThen wrote: »
    Morphine pain management and sedation most likely.

    Morphine depresses the respiratory system, so not sure if it would be used in this case, but certainly sedation.


  • #7253
    New Home
    Moderators, Arts Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 78,241 Mod ✭✭✭✭New Home


    Professor Moriarty wrote: »
    I know when triage is used. My point is that triage is not genocide. What's happening in hospitals is not genocide.

    What would you call what's happening to elderly and frail people, then? Natural selection?


  • #7254
    Doc07
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,156 ✭✭✭Doc07


    New Home wrote: »
    It is genocide. This is not a matter of deciding what's better for the individual, this is being done due to lack of resources and due to the health services being overwhelmed. I know perfectly well that choices have been made before now, but only during war times, or times of epidemics (and not in Western Europe in recent times) have resources being removed from one patient who might (might, not will) to be given to another who might (might, not will) have a better chance of survival. I'm not talking about palliative care here. You wouldn't see all those doctors and nurses in tears over this, if this had been routine (and I'm not saying they're not sad when somebody dies in normal circumstances).

    It’s not genocide


  • #7255
    voluntary
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 871 ✭✭✭voluntary


    Was the 8:45 HSE announcement already?


  • #7256
    johnfás
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,345 ✭✭✭johnfás


    cameramonkey wrote: »
    We dont really know if it skews ICU numbers because we don't know if the nursing home patients made it that far.


    I suppose all the numbers are skewed .



    We dont know how many people have the virus because testing is not enough and then we had the fiasco with the system here. Do we even know how many test have been carried out and then processed?



    We don't know how many are in ICU because it seem they don't put the numbers that are actually there at the moment, they add up all that have needed ICU treatment at say that is the number. Some people must have left ICU through improvement or death. So their figure is meaningless in many ways.


    I think the HSE are being deliberately vague on some issues. They seem to answer questions about testing or equipment shortages with answers that are about what they will hope be the situation in a day or week.


    I would like to know, how many ICU beds have we? How many test are being carried out and processed a day? How many test have been carried out? It does not see that difficult answers those questions.

    I expect not many have yet left ICU. The average stay in ICU in Italy was nearly 2 weeks and working on the assumption you don’t need ICU for a couple of days after you contract it you are talking 2.5/3 weeks after contraction before leaving ICU.


  • #7257
    1641
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,292 ✭✭✭1641


    Spanish Eyes wrote: »
    Similar choices have been made in every country where the virus is rampant. No country has a ventilator for each and every citizen. Never will.

    My point was that such choices are not new at all, they have been going on forever.


    There was an Italian doctor on the other night who indicated that people (I am not sure if he meant just elderly people) who need ventilation usually require it ongoing for about 2 weeks and even then a high proportion die. So the frontline doctors are faced with the choice of who is more likely to survive if given scarce ventilation.


  • #7258
    cameramonkey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,220 ✭✭✭cameramonkey


    New Home wrote: »
    What would you call what's happening to elderly and frail people, then? Natural selection?


    Old age and decline.


  • #7259
    BrianD3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,756 ✭✭✭BrianD3


    Great how the state is so concerned about the elderly all of a sudden and wants them to "cocoon" at home. Nice comforting terminology - but have the practicalities of this cocooning been addressed?

    If the 10 deaths the other day and the 14 today were nursing home residents, questions have to be asked about standards of care in nursing homes but also, more fundamentally, about how many elderly are in nursing homes because of the shambles that is home care in this country.

    https://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/colette-browne/hses-over-reliance-on-nursing-homes-is-not-just-bad-news-for-elderly-its-bad-for-economics-too-34968684.html

    There should have been a "Fair Deal" for home care years ago.

    In the Budget last October, a million extra hours of home care were announced. A few weeks ago, pre Covid19, I was talking to a consultant geriatrician (who is at the coalface when it comes to discharging patients from hospital into the community) about this and they said that there is no sign of these extra hours and there are still thousands of people waiting on home care packages. Even if they do get them it will usually be a meagre number of hours and very possibly a poor service. The experience described in the below linked thread is apparently common.

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058045564

    The result of all of this is "bed blocking" in acute hospitals (which affects the Covid19 crisis) and also people clustered together in nursing homes when they may have been able to manage at home with some help.


  • #7260
    nimrod86
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 789 ✭✭✭nimrod86


    Nermal wrote: »
    Your industry can keep dust out of a room. You should be able to manage not to be a source of many further infections.

    That's true yeah, but for maintenance tasks people do be crawling over eachother getting parts into awkward spaces. Like a building site
    social distancing can't be done properly in the work. A mail the other day from a corporate level told us that if we had to break social distancing for over 30 minutes then we should talk to our manager, they're essentially telling us they know better than HSE guidelines. I'm most worried about getting from the car to the cleanroom through the halls and canteen.


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  • #7261
    niallo27
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,139 ✭✭✭✭niallo27


    RayCon wrote: »
    Not where the staff have to de-gown , canteen, toilets etc.

    Our canteens have been redesigned and we have a marquee out the front. Every seat 2 meters from each other.


This discussion has been closed.
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