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Will Britain piss off and get on with Brexit II (mod warning in OP)

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Comments

  • #2052
    theological
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,831 ✭✭✭theological


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    I'll accept that economics is a lot less rigorous by its nature than epidemiology but the latter is highly probability based as well so I do think that this is a fair point.

    It depends on what inputs you put in however. Which is why there are economists who were supportive of Brexit and economists who weren't.

    As I've also said economics is not the only lens by which to analyse Brexit under. Brexit is also about political sovereignty in respect to national decision making and migration law amongst other things. It is multi-faceted and can be argued on the basis of pros and cons with many people falling on different sides of the question. I don't argue for example that there are no arguments for staying in the EU. Of course there are. I used to argue for it in 2016. I just think the arguments for leaving are stronger. I've explained why in earlier iterations of this thread and when I wasn't banned from the Politics forum for wrong think. I respect that you disagree because you feel otherwise.

    On public health we're dealing with medical facts and how best to respond to them. From my reading of it so far the UK side are doing a brilliant job in a measured way based on what we know.

    We shouldn't be critical of it just because we don't like Boris Johnson or Dominic Cummings or Brexit for example. We should be critical of it for logical reasons.


  • #2053
    lawred2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,457 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    theological wrote: »
    In the photo I saw from a friend it was also entirely clearing out meat aisles in a Dublin supermarket. That kind of disgracefully greedy selfish stockpiling does a huge disservice to other people.

    People who don't have the virus being out, children going to school. These things worry me much much less. It could be better than the alternative of kids going to grandparents because their parents have to work.

    Keeping people who exhibit even minor symptoms and the vulnerable away from others is much much more important at this stage.

    But anyway, I suspect we'll go around and around in circles. I've got a lot of confidence in the nuanced and calm strategy of the government here.

    The panic buying has passed


  • #2054
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,561 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    theological wrote: »
    It depends on what inputs you put in however. Which is why there are economists who were supportive of Brexit and economists who weren't.

    As I've also said economics is not the only lens by which to analyse Brexit under. Brexit is also about political sovereignty in respect to national decision making and migration law amongst other things. It is multi-faceted and can be argued on the basis of pros and cons with many people falling on different sides of the question. I don't argue for example that there are no arguments for staying in the EU. Of course there are. I used to argue for it in 2016. I just think the arguments for leaving are stronger. I've explained why in earlier iterations of this thread and when I wasn't banned from the Politics forum for wrong think. I respect that you disagree because you feel otherwise.

    On public health we're dealing with medical facts and how best to respond to them. From my reading of it so far the UK side are doing a brilliant job in a measured way based on what we know.

    We shouldn't be critical of it just because we don't like Boris Johnson or Dominic Cummings or Brexit for example. We should be critical of it for logical reasons.

    Aside from Patrick Minford, I don't recall seeing many, if any Economists in favour of Brexit so the two sides wheeze doesn't hold unless you can cite a poll or something similar.

    Please do not lie about me. You asked to be banned. I have the PM.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • #2055
    theological
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,831 ✭✭✭theological


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    Aside from Patrick Minford, I don't recall seeing many, if any Economists in favour of Brexit so the two sides wheeze doesn't hold unless you can cite a poll or something similar.

    Please do not lie about me. You asked to be banned. I have the PM.

    I'm happy to take the other question offline. I was simply referring to arguments I've made for Brexit here and on the Politics forum.

    Patrick Minford isn't the only pro-Brexit economist. There are others but my point is that it is a subject of disagreement both within that field but also politically in respect to sovereignty and other areas such as immigration. I respect that there are arguments that can be made for staying in the EU but on balance I think Britain outside the EU is the right place and I've explained why ad nauseum at this stage.

    So obviously it isn't comparable to medical science. I am interested in discussing the difference in policy on this in the UK however. I think it has struck the right balance.


  • #2056
    coastwatch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 908 ✭✭✭coastwatch


    theological wrote: »
    On public health we're dealing with medical facts and how best to respond to them. From my reading of it so far the UK side are doing a brilliant job in a measured way based on what we know.

    Hundreds of UK doctors and scientists dont share your view. They want the UK government to publish
    the evidence that supports the appoach of stopping widespread community testing, contact tracing, and the reliance on herd immunity.

    "Public health experts and hundreds of doctors and scientists at home and abroad are urging the UK government to change its strategy against coronavirus, amid fears it will mean the epidemic “lets rip” through the population."

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/15/coronavirus-health-experts-fear-epidemic-will-let-rip-through-uk


  • #2057
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,561 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    theological wrote: »
    Patrick Minford isn't the only pro-Brexit economist. There are others but my point is that it is a subject of disagreement both within that field but also politically in respect to sovereignty and other areas such as immigration. I respect that there are arguments that can be made for staying in the EU but on balance I think Britain outside the EU is the right place and I've explained why ad nauseum at this stage.

    So obviously it isn't comparable to medical science. I am interested in discussing the difference in policy on this in the UK however. I think it has struck the right balance.

    I believe that had experts been split on Brexit, we wouldn't have had Michael Gove's famous quip on the subject.

    My point wasn't about notions of sovereignty or immigration. It was about experts being casually dismissed and sneered at in 2016 and now that they seem to be advocating measures taken by the government they must be listened to.
    Uncertainty will hobble UK business investment and depress consumer spending in 2019, stunting long-term growth even if Britain manages to avoid a disorderly Brexit, according to a poll of more than 80 leading economists.

    The best the UK can expect over the year is uninspiring growth remaining at its current level of about 1.5 per cent, even if the economy eventually enjoys a modest rebound on the back of a deal with the EU, the FT’s annual survey on the UK’s economic outlook suggests.

    A majority of the 81 economists, polled between December 17 and 21, did not give a firm prediction for growth in the coming year, despite last year correctly anticipating a slowdown to 1.5 per cent growth in 2018. Many said forecasting for 2019 was impossible given the “comprehensive” and “chronic” uncertainty that had become “a way of life” in the UK, especially when likely Brexit outcomes were binary: either no deal or no Brexit.

    https://www.ft.com/content/5a90765c-0ce6-11e9-acdc-4d9976f1533b

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • #2058
    Donald Trump
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,225 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    coastwatch wrote: »
    Hundreds of UK doctors and scientists dont share your view. They want the UK government to publish
    the evidence that supports the appoach of stopping widespread community testing, contact tracing, and the reliance on herd immunity.

    "Public health experts and hundreds of doctors and scientists at home and abroad are urging the UK government to change its strategy against coronavirus, amid fears it will mean the epidemic “lets rip” through the population."

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/15/coronavirus-health-experts-fear-epidemic-will-let-rip-through-uk


    There is an "almost" Stockholm syndrome amongst certain people.
    They go to the UK, doff the cap to the Brits and believe it when the Brits tell them they are better than the Paddies. Some then think that if they go back and stick up for Boris and belittle the other Paddies then maybe an upper class Brit will pat them on the head and call them a good boy and perhaps even give them a little Union Jack flag to wave.

    Tally-ho pip pip!


  • #2059
    theological
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,831 ✭✭✭theological


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    I believe that had experts been split on Brexit, we wouldn't have had Michael Gove's famous quip on the subject.

    My point wasn't about notions of sovereignty or immigration. It was about experts being casually dismissed and sneered at in 2016 and now that they seem to be advocating measures taken by the government they must be listened to.

    My response is that Brexit is multi-faceted. It isn't solely about economics, it is also political and there are a range of opinions on that based on the assumptions you insert.

    Therefore it isn't directly comparable to medical science and how to respond to it on coronavirus.


  • #2060
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,561 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    theological wrote: »
    My response is that Brexit is multi-faceted. It isn't solely about economics, it is also political and there are a range of opinions on that based on the assumptions you insert.

    Therefore it isn't directly comparable to medical science and how to respond to it on coronavirus.

    It being political does not detract from my point. The government is being praised for consulting experts now while experts were derided in 2016. It's not about the sector, it's about defending the government.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • #2061
    theological
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,831 ✭✭✭theological


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    It being political does not detract from my point. The government is being praised for consulting experts now while experts were derided in 2016. It's not about the sector, it's about defending the government.

    It also doesn't detract from mine. That even economic forecasting is based on speculation and assumptions that are inputted and even in this area there is disagreement. Plus there are more factors at play.


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  • #2062
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,561 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    theological wrote: »
    It also doesn't detract from mine. That even economic forecasting is based on speculation and assumptions that are inputted and even in this area there is disagreement. Plus there are more factors at play.

    Such speculation is the best that is available compared to what, say chemists and biologists can work with.

    When following the 2016 debates, there was no engagement with the arguments of economists. They were just dismissed. It's perfectly fine to point out flaws and/or assumptions in a predictive mathematical model but it's another to wave one's hand at an inconvenient argument though I am not suggesting that you yourself did so.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • #2063
    CelticRambler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,890 ✭✭✭CelticRambler


    theological wrote: »
    It depends on what inputs you put in however. Which is why there are economists who were supportive of Brexit and economists who weren't.

    ...

    On public health we're dealing with medical facts and how best to respond to them. From my reading of it so far the UK side are doing a brilliant job in a measured way based on what we know.

    Medical facts, especially in the early stages of an epidemic, aren't nearly as hard and fast as you seem to believe. That you are arguing in favour of the "brilliant job" being done by the UK government when the medical facts (such as they are) support an alternative strategy, and one promoted by an overwhelming majority of other Public Health organisations shows that in this situation, we're in exactly the same territory as Brexit.

    Ultimately, there is only one sure medical fact about Covid-19: it is transmitted from human to human, so the best means of control in the absence of an effective vaccine is the isolation of contagious individuals - especially asymptomatic carriers. The UK has chosen not to adopt this approach, so - in the same way that Brexit was predicted (and has been shown) to have an invariably negative effect on the British economy - Covid-19 can be expected to have an invariably negative effect on British public health.


  • #2064
    First Up
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,823 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    theological wrote:
    It also doesn't detract from mine. That even economic forecasting is based on speculation and assumptions that are inputted and even in this area there is disagreement. Plus there are more factors at play.

    The only speculation and disagreement is over the extent of the eco omic damage facing the UK. There has not been a single credible argument that the UK can replace even a fraction of the business it will lose in Europe with new business elsewhere.


  • #2065
    theological
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,831 ✭✭✭theological


    Donald Trump wrote: »
    There is an "almost" Stockholm syndrome amongst certain people.
    They go to the UK, doff the cap to the Brits and believe it when the Brits tell them they are better than the Paddies. Some then think that if they go back and stick up for Boris and belittle the other Paddies then maybe an upper class Brit will pat them on the head and call them a good boy and perhaps even give them a little Union Jack flag to wave.

    Tally-ho pip pip!

    Or God forbid I actually agree with the politics of the Conservatives and the strategy of the government on this issue.

    Apparently you're the sort of fantastic liberal who thinks that you can't be Irish if you commit wrong think!

    How about we engage with decent arguments from the other perspective rather than as hominems?

    This is what I asked you:
    theological wrote: »
    Ok let's get to the nitty gritty. What precisely do you think the UK isn't doing that could be much more effective and why?

    A good answer to this question will have quantifiable measurements and / or reference to experts on the subject.


  • #2066
    coastwatch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 908 ✭✭✭coastwatch


    theological wrote: »

    Ok let's get to the nitty gritty. What precisely do you think the UK isn't doing that could be much more effective and why?

    A good answer to this question will have quantifiable measurements and / or reference to experts on the subject.

    Start widespread community testing and contact tracing.

    "Dr Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus, WHO’s director general, expressed his deep concern on Friday at the end of testing and contact tracing in the UK and some other European countries.

    “You can’t fight a virus if you don’t know where it is,” he said. “Find, isolate, test and treat every case to break the chains of Covid transmission. Every case we find and treat limits the expansion of the disease.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/15/coronavirus-health-experts-fear-epidemic-will-let-rip-through-uk


  • #2067
    Donald Trump
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,225 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    theological wrote: »
    Or God forbid I actually agree with the politics of the Conservatives and the strategy of the government on this issue.

    Apparently you're the sort of fantastic liberal who thinks that you can't be Irish if you commit wrong think!

    How about we engage with decent arguments from the other perspective rather than as hominems?

    This is what I asked you:

    Hi

    It is not a difficult answer. They could close schools and ban large mass gatherings. They could have stopped Cheltenham. They could have stopped football matches and concerts.

    The virus is spread when infected people come into contact with others. Therefore if you minimize the number of people that can come in contract with an infected person, it will slow the spread.

    People who have symptoms can spread the virus before they have symptoms.
    People who are asymptomatic can spread the virus. A person can go to a concert, pick up the virus and then a week later spread it to a vulnerable person who just happened to be risking their needed trip to the supermarket to stock up on perishables. They might not have a servant to get it for them like Boris has.

    Now if you want me to point you to a peer reviewed journal article explaining specifically why Cheltenham 2020 should have been cancelled then, no, I can't provide that of course. But I can point you towards what the Chinese had to do to get it under control. They have experience with dealing with these type of outbreaks and know what works best.

    The number of new cases in China is far less than the number in the UK. Try to fathom that. And the Chinese have tens of thousands of people capable of spreading the virus. The UK had, or has, a chance to nip it in the bud.

    Think of it this way then dude if it makes it easier for you to realise the seriousness - the more English people who get the virus, the more English people will die. So English people will die. Not just the Irish or the Italians or the Spanish. English people. Maybe not the upper-class important people, but English people nonetheless. It'll kill off a few immigrants too though on the "positive" side (depending on ones viewpoint I guess)


  • #2068
    AllForIt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,477 ✭✭✭AllForIt


    coastwatch wrote: »
    Hundreds of UK doctors and scientists dont share your view. They want the UK government to publish
    the evidence that supports the appoach of stopping widespread community testing, contact tracing, and the reliance on herd immunity.

    "Public health experts and hundreds of doctors and scientists at home and abroad are urging the UK government to change its strategy against coronavirus, amid fears it will mean the epidemic “lets rip” through the population."

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/15/coronavirus-health-experts-fear-epidemic-will-let-rip-through-uk

    Herd immunity is not a policy of the UK gov, it's simply a fact.

    Their chief medial reps made a very strong case that outdoor events don't pose much of a threat i.e Cheltenham, in contrast to indoor gathering which pose much more of a threat with this particular virus.

    What is happening here is the same ole remainers attacking a Brexit gov in whatever way they can. Which I think is despicable during this crisis.


  • #2069
    AllForIt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,477 ✭✭✭AllForIt


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    It being political does not detract from my point. The government is being praised for consulting experts now while experts were derided in 2016. It's not about the sector, it's about defending the government.

    What experts were completely impartial re Brexit? Everyone had a biased view.

    And as has been said multiple times it wasn't all about economics anyway. Surely you of all people would know this but you choose to pretend your not aware of the many reasons for Brexit just to make this silly strawman argument you are making.


  • #2070
    theological
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,831 ✭✭✭theological


    AllForIt wrote: »
    Herd immunity is not a policy of the UK gov, it's simply a fact.

    Their chief medial reps made a very strong case that outdoor events don't pose much of a threat i.e Cheltenham, in contrast to indoor gathering which pose much more of a threat with this particular virus.

    What is happening here is the same ole remainers attacking a Brexit gov in whatever way they can. Which I think is despicable during this crisis.

    The same is true of closing schools at this stage. There's not much impact of this and potentially some in the negative at this stage because there's the grandparent effect. I linked to Patrick Vallance on this a few pages ago explaining this part of the government's strategy.

    I'm definitely happy for things to be introduced as is necessary to ensure that when more drastic steps are needed it will last. I think the arguments are lacking.


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  • #2071
    threeball
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,267 ✭✭✭threeball


    theological wrote: »
    The same is true of closing schools at this stage. There's not much impact of this and potentially some in the negative at this stage because there's the grandparent effect. I linked to Patrick Vallance on this a few pages ago explaining this part of the government's strategy.

    I'm definitely happy for things to be introduced as is necessary to ensure that when more drastic steps are needed it will last. I think the arguments are lacking.

    I think the next 3 days in the UK is going to be a stark wakeup call for you. Deaths almost doubled in one day and they still think the infection rate is low with little to no testing happening.
    Closing schools now all the kids have it certainly isn't going to be worth a toss. Bringing it home to Mammy the nurse and dad in the ambulance service.


  • #2072
    coastwatch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 908 ✭✭✭coastwatch


    AllForIt wrote: »
    Herd immunity is not a policy of the UK gov, it's simply a fact.

    Their chief medial reps made a very strong case that outdoor events don't pose much of a threat i.e Cheltenham, in contrast to indoor gathering which pose much more of a threat with this particular virus.

    What is happening here is the same ole remainers attacking a Brexit gov in whatever way they can. Which I think is despicable during this crisis.

    To clarify, the UK policy is to isolate (lockdown) the elderly (most vulnurable) for 4 months+, beginning in a couple of weeks time. Then, 60% or more of rest of the population is expected to become infected over the coming months and then recover, at which point the elderly can begin to circulate again as the pandemic will have passed?

    There will be no community testing or contact tracing, as is being done as "best practice" in the countries with much more experience of epidemics.

    The UK approach is a huge public health policy experiment, with potentially fatal consequences for tens of thouands due to a crippled NHS.

    Brexit discussions seem completly irrelevant at this stage.


  • #2073
    Padre_Pio
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,347 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    theological wrote: »
    The same is true of closing schools at this stage. There's not much impact of this and potentially some in the negative at this stage because there's the grandparent effect. I linked to Patrick Vallance on this a few pages ago explaining this part of the government's strategy.

    I'm definitely happy for things to be introduced as is necessary to ensure that when more drastic steps are needed it will last. I think the arguments are lacking.
    Children can carry the vius. Children are much more likely to be in close proximity to each other and spread the virus.

    Your "grandparent effect" theory doesn't hold much water. Closing schools is a good response IMO. There's no real data that shows immunity after recovery. People have gotten re-infected due as they are isolated with other sufferers. Social isolation is working in China, S Korea and Japan.

    The UK's response is an admission that the NHS simply cannot cope with Coronavirus, plain and simple. It's the best they can do with what they have.
    AllForIt wrote: »
    What is happening here is the same ole remainers attacking a Brexit gov in whatever way they can. Which I think is despicable during this crisis.
    I would argue the inverse. The govt has made another bad decision (or maybe the best given the shambles of the NHS) and Brexiters jump to their defence as always.


  • #2074
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    coastwatch wrote: »
    To clarify, the UK policy is to isolate (lockdown) the elderly (most vulnurable) for 4 months+, beginning in a couple of weeks time. Then, 60% or more of rest of the population is expected to become infected over the coming months and then recover, at which point the elderly can begin to circulate again as the pandemic will have passed?

    There will be no community testing or contact tracing, as is being done as "best practice" in the countries with much more experience of epidemics.

    The UK approach is a huge public health policy experiment, with potentially fatal consequences for tens of thouands due to a crippled NHS.

    Brexit discussions seem completly irrelevant at this stage.

    every country is expecting 60% of the population to become infected. Leo has said it and so has Merkal.


  • #2075
    Padre_Pio
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,347 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    Aegir wrote: »
    every country is expecting 60% of the population to become infected. Leo has said it and so has Merkal.

    Yes, but every country is making attempts to "flatten the curve" in order to reduce strain on hospitals, through social isolation.


  • #2076
    Tea Shock
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 345 ✭✭Tea Shock


    AllForIt wrote: »
    Herd immunity is not a policy of the UK gov, it's simply a fact.

    Their chief medial reps made a very strong case that outdoor events don't pose much of a threat i.e Cheltenham, in contrast to indoor gathering which pose much more of a threat with this particular virus.

    What is happening here is the same ole remainers attacking a Brexit gov in whatever way they can. Which I think is despicable during this crisis.

    A herd immunity strategy that based upon statistical analysis, would involve up to 200,000 British people dying!!!

    And they don't even know if "herd immunity" makes sense!!


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  • #2077
    Padre_Pio
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,347 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    Tea Shock wrote: »
    A herd immunity strategy that based upon statistical analysis, would involve up to 200,000 British people dying!!!

    And they don't even know if "herd immunity" makes sense!!

    That's the part that's most worrying. There's no evidence yet that people develop a long term immunity to the virus. It's too new to make that call.

    The virus can persist for weeks even after symptoms have disappeared.

    Thousands of people in the UK will die in the next few weeks and the NHS will be swamped.


  • #2078
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Padre_Pio wrote: »
    Yes, but every country is making attempts to "flatten the curve" in order to reduce strain on hospitals, through social isolation.

    So you missed Boris talking about squashing the sombrero?


  • #2079
    threeball
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,267 ✭✭✭threeball


    Aegir wrote: »
    So you missed Boris talking about squashing the sombrero?

    The sombrero is more of a Dunces cap already unfortunately


  • #2080
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,296 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Padre_Pio wrote: »
    Yes, but every country is making attempts to "flatten the curve" in order to reduce strain on hospitals, through social isolation.
    Every country is not making these attempts (i.e. UK)!


  • #2081
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Seth Brundle wrote: »
    Every country is not making these attempts (i.e. UK)!

    Yet. It will.


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  • #2082
    John_Rambo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,874 ✭✭✭John_Rambo


    When the C-19 Virus is settled and under control (which will happen at some stage) there will be an EU economic stimulus reaction from and for EU members.

    Is this going to be another case where Brexitiers will regret their actions? I'm no expert, but I'm seeing a good bit of regret from ignorant but educated voters and I'm wondering will this be the true realisation of the unity and unrealised advantages that the partnership offers?

    Do you all think the UK be exempt from any stimulus?


  • #2083
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,690 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    John_Rambo wrote: »
    When the C-19 Virus is settled and under control (which will happen at some stage) there will be an EU economic stimulus reaction from and for EU members.

    Is this going to be another case where Brexitiers will regret their actions? I'm no expert, but I'm seeing a good bit of regret from ignorant but educated voters and I'm wondering will this be the true realisation of the unity and unrealised advantages that the partnership offers?

    Do you all think the UK be exempt from any stimulus?
    If there's an EU stimulus package, obviously the UK will not participate.

    However this means not only that they won't get payments under the package, but also that they won't contribute towards it, and under most EU programmes the UK is a net payer. So, across the country as a whole, the UK may benefit financially from not participating.

    Which is not to say that everyone in in the UK will benefit from not participating. Obviously, those people/organisations/regions that would have received more under the package than they would have paid in will lose out if the UK does not participate. Without knowing the details of the package, we can't know who they are.


  • #2084
    McGiver
    Registered Users Posts: 4,450 ✭✭✭McGiver


    coastwatch wrote:
    Hundreds of UK doctors and scientists dont share your view. They want the UK government to publish the evidence that supports the appoach of stopping widespread community testing, contact tracing, and the reliance on herd immunity.

    Yes, it's a BS. And always has been a BS. WHO and major experts in the field called the Tory bluff.


  • #2085
    theological
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,831 ✭✭✭theological


    threeball wrote: »
    I think the next 3 days in the UK is going to be a stark wakeup call for you. Deaths almost doubled in one day and they still think the infection rate is low with little to no testing happening.
    Closing schools now all the kids have it certainly isn't going to be worth a toss. Bringing it home to Mammy the nurse and dad in the ambulance service.

    There's no evidence that pulling kids out of school will improve things at the moment. When it is the right time I will support more measures. For now the UK are handling it well and the rate of spread has been slower than in other large European countries. It will get worse but if the right steps are given at the right time the UK will pull through it.

    There's no evidence at the moment that the UK strategy is worse than any other. Hence why you have to use odd phrases like the UK will have a wake-up call.

    I trust the experts advising the government more than you.


  • #2086
    Syncpolice
    Closed Accounts Posts: 245 ✭✭Syncpolice


    theological wrote: »
    There's no evidence that pulling kids out of school will improve things at the moment. When it is the right time I will support more measures. For now the UK are handling it well and the rate of spread has been slower than in other large European countries. It will get worse but if the right steps are given at the right time the UK will pull through it.

    There's no evidence at the moment that the UK strategy is worse than any other. Hence why you have to use odd phrases like the UK will have a wake-up call.

    I trust the experts advising the government more than you.

    Your kidding right


  • #2087
    Ten of Swords
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,063 CMod ✭✭✭✭Ten of Swords


    Mod

    We have a new Coronavirus forum, please take any covid discussions there

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=1865

    Moderator: Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual & Transgender, Vegan & Vegetarian

    Category Moderator: Social & Fun



  • #2088
    theological
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,831 ✭✭✭theological


    Ten of Swords wrote: »
    Mod

    We have a new Coronavirus forum, please take any covid discussions there

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=1865

    Can some of the coronavirus posts be moved to a thread there? That'd be good for allowing discussion on the topic of the UK response to continue.


  • #2089
    Donald Trump
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,225 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    theological wrote: »
    Can some of the coronavirus posts be moved to a thread there? That'd be good for allowing discussion on the topic of the UK response to continue.


    Just go over there and post. They'd get lost anyway.

    Will be interesting to see if your opinion from 2 hours ago has completely flipped like Boris has done. See ya over there!


  • #2090
    CelticRambler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,890 ✭✭✭CelticRambler


    The phrase "dither and delay" comes to mind ... only to end up doing what the Europeans said had to be done. Haven't we seen this narrative before, somewhere? :rolleyes:


  • #2091
    Ten of Swords
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,063 CMod ✭✭✭✭Ten of Swords


    If you want to start a new thread in the covid forum that discusses specifically the UKs response that's fine, there's a whole forum now. You're not restricted to the megathreads :)


    Edit: I have moved all posts from this thread since 6am this morning into a new thread in the covid forum

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058062174

    Enjoy :)

    Moderator: Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual & Transgender, Vegan & Vegetarian

    Category Moderator: Social & Fun



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  • #2092
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Aegir wrote: »
    And the SNP, obviously.

    Yes in this case they are.


  • #2093
    Junkyard Tom
    Registered Users Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    So the Conservatives are using fiscal stimulus? Interesting, as that's exactly what the Labour Party was saying would be needed.


  • #2094
    joeguevara
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,099 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    Presume this has been covered but I worry that experts without knowledge of things like Brexit are allowed to inform public similar to this.

    https://www.balls.ie/the-rewind/british-doctor-claims-ireland-doesnt-health-service-live-telly-428048


  • #2095
    Donald Trump
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,225 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    This is corona and Brexit related. I assume it is more Brexit relevant than Corona but can delete if not

    Michel Barnier has it

    https://www.independent.ie/world-news/coronavirus/brexit-negotiator-michel-barnier-tests-positive-for-coronavirus-39057610.html


  • #2096
    road_high
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,474 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    It seems irrelevant in the context of what's going on now, but you'd imagine the extension period will get a lengthy extension now. UK stance and mentality may soften back towards greater European unity if it can be fought together successfully.


  • #2097
    davedanon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,062 ✭✭✭davedanon


    https://mobile.twitter.com/nicktolhurst/status/1240530155006820352

    "The UK is still refusing to participate in the joint EU procurement program for ventilators & medical equipment despite EU saying they can.....because it’s a European program."

    No words.


  • #2098
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,561 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    road_high wrote: »
    It seems irrelevant in the context of what's going on now, but you'd imagine the extension period will get a lengthy extension now. UK stance and mentality may soften back towards greater European unity if it can be fought together successfully.

    Well, they've prohibited it in UK law so that would need changing first.
    davedanon wrote: »
    https://mobile.twitter.com/nicktolhurst/status/1240530155006820352

    "The UK is still refusing to participate in the joint EU procurement program for ventilators & medical equipment despite EU saying they can.....because it’s a European program."

    No words.

    Welcome to the UK in 2020.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • #2099
    lawred2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,457 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    davedanon wrote: »
    https://mobile.twitter.com/nicktolhurst/status/1240530155006820352

    "The UK is still refusing to participate in the joint EU procurement program for ventilators & medical equipment despite EU saying they can.....because it’s a European program."

    No words.

    Idiots is one word


  • #2100
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,690 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    Well, they've prohibited it in UK law so that would need changing first.
    Won't be a problem. If Johnson decides to change his position and seek or agree to an extension, Parliament will enact the necessary law change. This is not a parliament that will oppose Johnson in anything; it will reliably bring him his slippers and then roll over to have its tummy tickled.


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  • #2101
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,561 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    Won't be a problem. If Johnson decides to change his position and seek or agree to an extension, Parliament will enact the necessary law change. This is not a parliament that will oppose Johnson in anything; it will reliably bring him his slippers and then roll over to have its tummy tickled.

    True. I was referring to the press and the populace at large. The viral pandemic might give him the out he needs.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



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