Greens demand improved public transport take priority over Cork/Limerick motorway

efanton · 03-03-2020 1:40am #1

Have the Green party completely lost their senses?
The Green Party has insisted that providing for added public transport should take priority over the delivery of major new motorways including the M20 between Cork and Limerick in talks with Fine Gael.
https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/greens-demand-improved-public-transport-take-priority-over-corklimerick-motorway-985361.html

Do they not realise that not building that road will not stop the same number of vehicles still travelling along the Limerick to Cork road?

That in fact by having vehicle travelling at constant speeds and not caught up in traffic jams in towns and villages (the very places you would want to reduce pollution by the way) emissions would be reduced.

The fact that the N20 is one of the most dangerous national roads in the country and a motorway would significantly reduce the total number of road related deaths and serious injuries.

That the M20 is vital economically for the Munster region.

That building the motorway would reduce housing pressure in both Cork and Limerick cities.

And yet they claim that all that money could be spent on public transport that the towns and villages between Limerick and Cork do not have and are extremely unlikely to ever have.

Have they totally lost the plot? Can they seriously be considered a viable member of any government coalition?
It all well and good advocating measures to increase the use of public transport and reduce vehicle emissions, I think every party would agree to these. But to now hold to ransom those parties that might form a government with the scrapping of the M20 that will neither achieve those measures nor save lives is simply unacceptable.

Not one single measure in their manifesto was costed. It seems their game plan is to extract the money for their 'green policies' is to reduce government spending in other areas that are vital to both our economic growth and our health, and at the cost of lives?

Who would want to support a party that would do that? Who in the Green party can justify the above?

con747 · 03-03-2020 1:46am

efanton wrote: »

Have the Green party completely lost their senses?
The Green Party has insisted that providing for added public transport should take priority over the delivery of major new motorways including the M20 between Cork and Limerick in talks with Fine Gael.
https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/greens-demand-improved-public-transport-take-priority-over-corklimerick-motorway-985361.html

Do they not realise that not building that road will not stop the same number of vehicles still travelling along the Limerick to Cork road?

That in fact by having vehicle travelling at constant speeds and not caught up in traffic jams in towns and villages (the very places you would want to reduce pollution by the way) emissions would be reduced.

The fact that the N20 is one of the most dangerous national roads in the country and a motorway would significantly reduce the total number of road related deaths and serious injuries.

That the M20 is vital economically for the Munster region.

That building the motorway would reduce housing pressure in both Cork and Limerick cities.

And yet they claim that all that money could be spent on public transport that the towns and villages between Limerick and Cork do not have and are extremely unlikely to ever have.

Have they totally lost the plot? Can they seriously be considered a viable member of any government coalition?
It all well and good advocating measures to increase the use of public transport and reduce vehicle emissions, I think every party would agree to these. But to now hold to ransom those parties that might form a government with the scrapping of the M20 that will neither achieve those measures nor save lives is simply unacceptable.

Not one single measure in their manifesto was costed. It seems their game plan is to extract the money for their 'green policies' is to reduce government spending in other areas that are vital to both our economic growth and our health, and at the cost of lives?

Who would want to support a party that would do that? Who in the Green party can justify the above?

Mr Ryan and his 11 TD's. They think they should be back in government again. Not looking after the real issues affecting people outside the M50 in my opinion.

abcabc123123 · 03-03-2020 11:33am

efanton wrote: »

Do they not realise that not building that road will not stop the same number of vehicles still travelling along the Limerick to Cork road?

Building new motorways increases the number of cars on the road. It increases car dependency, increases emissions, increases pollution and increases sprawl.

The fact that the N20 is one of the most dangerous national roads in the country and a motorway would significantly reduce the total number of road related deaths and serious injuries.

So would making changes to the existing road, you don't need a motorway to make roads safer.

That the M20 is vital economically for the Munster region.

the evidence for this claim is very dubious imo.

That building the motorway would reduce housing pressure in both Cork and Limerick cities.

By creating unsustainable urban sprawl that will make many of the problems people claim the M20 will solve worse in the long term.

And yet they claim that all that money could be spent on public transport that the towns and villages between Limerick and Cork do not have and are extremely unlikely to ever have.

If you spend the money on roads rather than PT, then yes, they will never have PT.

The Green Party is entirely correct in advocating for switching the spending emphasis from roads to public transport. Transit Oriented Development is the future; the predict and provide model of motorway building is the past. The sooner the other political parties wake up to this, the easier the transition will be.

73bc61lyohr0mu · 03-03-2020 11:36am

abcabc123123 wrote: »

So would making changes to the existing road, you don't need a motorway to make roads safer.

Have you ever actually driven the n20 from Limerick to Cork?

banie01 · 03-03-2020 11:43am

Some of the most dangerous stretches of N road in the country, Experimental layouts in 2+1 still in use despite contributing to fatal crashes and arterial link between the 2nd and 3rd cities that is at times reduced to little better than an R road, and aside from danger it is inherently bottlencked at multiple points.

Yet the information the road is economically viable is "dubious"?

Going back to the electorate with a view this Dublin centric will cost the Green's a lot of votes outside the Pale IMO.

abcabc123123 · 03-03-2020 11:52am

banie01 wrote: »

Some of the most dangerous stretches of N road in the country, Experimental layouts in 2+1 still in use despite contributing to fatal crashes and arterial link between the 2nd and 3rd cities that is at times reduced to little better than an R road, and aside from danger it is inherently bottlencked at multiple points.

Again, these are arguments for fixing the design of the existing road, not building a motorway.

The solution to congestion is public transport, not expanding road capacity as that just gets filled within a very short time.

Yet the information the road is economically viable is "dubious"?

Yes. Have you got peer reviewed evidence that shows otherwise? From what I've read, the economic argument for motorways is very weak.

Going back to the electorate with a view this Dublin centric will cost the Green's a lot of votes outside the Pale IMO.

It may well do, but someone has to make the argument. Motorway building is rapidly making way for transit internationally and as usual Ireland is way behind the curve.

It isn't a Dublin thing though, the Greens oppose the Dublin related motorways too.

LeinsterDub · 03-03-2020 11:59am

We need to re-balance the budget , too much has been spent on roads and it's only led to increased congestion.

Chips Lovell · 03-03-2020 12:00pm

Mod Note

Hi folks. Please read the charter before posting. One-liners such as "Jesus wept" don't belong here.

Thanks

banie01 · 03-03-2020 12:14pm

abcabc123123 wrote: »

Again, these are arguments for fixing the design of the existing road, not building a motorway.

The solution to congestion is public transport, not expanding road capacity as that just gets filled within a very short time.

Given that you have never driven the current road, your argument for "fixing" the current layout is rather poor.

If you can remove quarries and manage to find an economically viable way to straighten the portions of the road between charleville and mallow whilst meeting currwent road design best practice? have at it.

Or how about ensuring that on what is the main road between 2 of Ireland's main cities, that a hard shoulder is available?
That come any moment when a farmer with road frontage needs to move between fields that tailbacks, and increased risk don't ensue?

Should the traffic between those cities be routed through towns?

abcabc123123 wrote: »

Yes. Have you got peer reviewed evidence that shows otherwise? From what I've read, the economic argument for motorways is very weak.

Have the Greens? Because everything I've read on the matter refers to the separate conurbations?
It completely missed the point that in the South and Mid West, travel on the N20 is a daily occurrence.
It is the South's main artery for people who commute between a range of locations.

In Dublin centric terms, Cork to Limerick is for many people the same journey timewise as commuting from Swords to Dundrum and back.

I know many people living in Limerick who work in Cork and vice versa.

The mistake is assuming that Limerick and Cork are separate!
In real terms the commute is 70 minutes, people are basing themselves where housing is affordable, quite often in N20 accessible locations, and commuting both north and south to work.
Many students in UL/LIT/MI, live in Cork and commute daily and vice versa.
Add to that the normal flow of commerce and people between the 2nd and 3rd cities and the need becomes quite apparent.

It may well do, but someone has to make the argument. Motorway building is rapidly making way for transit internationally and as usual Ireland is way behind the curve.

It isn't a Dublin thing though, the Greens oppose the Dublin related motorways too.

What is the viable, affordable, safe and near term improvement then?
Trains? They're great! How many are there direct between cork and Limerick?
Buses? Again, I travel quite a bit on public transport.
Can be excellent, unfortunately on the N20 currently, all impacted by the issues already laid out.

LeinsterDub · 03-03-2020 12:34pm

banie01 wrote: »

What is the viable, affordable, safe and near term improvement then?
Trains? They're great! How many are there direct between cork and Limerick?
Buses? Again, I travel quite a bit on public transport.
Can be excellent, unfortunately on the N20 currently, all impacted by the issues already laid out.

Of course public transport is crap, we've constantly under invested in it.

LeinsterDub · 03-03-2020 12:37pm

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

It's same arguments as made against Galway bypass, greens strawmaning that public transport should be prioritised and bypass not built.

Ignoring that without bypass those buses (and in case of some nutters a luas for Galway) would be stuck in same traffic as cars as roads can't be widened for bus lanes.

Also making it an either or debate when it could be both, bypass being built which frees up roads for bus lanes and buses

This is the trouble with political ideologues, zero pragmatism. We already seen greenpeace make nuclear such a dirty word the world ended up with thousands of coal/oil/gas plants increasing climate change.

Galway is a the perfect city for public transport , small and compact for lots but due to nearly 0 bus lanes, cycle lanes or walking priority its a traffic nightmare. Buses are going to be stuck in traffic regardless of building the bypass or not due to induced demand. If you don't build for PT you get crap PT , we don't need to spend 600-700 on yet a other failed bypass in Galway.

LeinsterDub · 03-03-2020 12:40pm

One more lane !

One more lane right?

https://twitter.com/LiorSteinberg/status/1193051019070070784

Motoring is Ireland's version of gun control, the solution to too many cars? More cars :rolleyes:

satguy · 03-03-2020 12:41pm

Just wait till the GP starts bulldozing down factories becaues some snail or butterfly is in danger.

The GP would / will say how many cars a town can have, in fact their leader is already in hot water for this kind of thing.

LeinsterDub · 03-03-2020 12:43pm

satguy wrote: »

Just wait till the GP starts bulldozing down factories becaues some snail or butterfly is in danger.

The GP would / will say how many cars a town can have, in fact their leader is already in hot water for this kind of thing.

Yeah he never said any such thing. Jesus why do people repeat such nonsense?

PeadarCo · 03-03-2020 1:16pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

One more lane !

One more lane right?

https://twitter.com/LiorSteinberg/status/1193051019070070784

Motoring is Ireland's version of gun control, the solution to too many cars? More cars :rolleyes:

A long distance/non urban motorway also benefits public transport. The motorway network built over the Celtic Tiger years has been of great benefit to bus services. I get your point about Urban motorways. But there is an argument for a motorway between Limerick and Cork that specifically benefits public transport. Private operators took advantage of this far quicker than Bus Eireann when they figured out that people just wanted to get from Cork to Dublin without all the stopping in between. The motorways allowed this and brought significant time savings.

I understand where the Green party is coming from and would agree when it comes to large urban areas like Dublin. However it isn't as clear cut when it comes to intercity motorways.

ancapailldorcha · 03-03-2020 1:26pm

satguy wrote: »

Just wait till the GP starts bulldozing down factories becaues some snail or butterfly is in danger.

The GP would / will say how many cars a town can have, in fact their leader is already in hot water for this kind of thing.

No more silly comments please.

sid waddell · 03-03-2020 1:39pm

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

It's same arguments as made against Galway bypass, greens strawmaning that public transport should be prioritised and bypass not built.

Ignoring that without bypass those buses (and in case of some nutters a luas for Galway) would be stuck in same traffic as cars as roads can't be widened for bus lanes.

Also making it an either or debate when it could be both, bypass being built which frees up roads for bus lanes and buses

This is the trouble with political ideologues, zero pragmatism. We already seen greenpeace make nuclear such a dirty word the world ended up with thousands of coal/oil/gas plants increasing climate change.

What's nuts about a Luas for Galway?

Galway is laid out almost in a linear fashion in an east-west direction. A light rail system along that east-west axis makes eminent sense.

LeinsterDub · 03-03-2020 1:45pm

PeadarCo wrote: »

A long distance/non urban motorway also benefits public transport. The motorway network built over the Celtic Tiger years has been of great benefit to bus services. I get your point about Urban motorways. But there is an argument for a motorway between Limerick and Cork that specifically benefits public transport. Private operators took advantage of this far quicker than Bus Eireann when they figured out that people just wanted to get from Cork to Dublin without all the stopping in between. The motorways allowed this and brought significant time savings.

I understand where the Green party is coming from and would agree when it comes to large urban areas like Dublin. However it isn't as clear cut when it comes to intercity motorways.

In an Irish contest Cork and Limerick are large urban areas.

Why not build a decent railway, build cycling and trams in Cork and Limerick. If after we done that and there is a still a demand for the demand and to be honest between Cork and Limerick there probably will be then build the motorway.

What have we done built motorways , the rest be damned .

markodaly · 03-03-2020 2:00pm

People are confusing two things.
The motorway between Cork and Limerick is an inter-urban link connecting the south to the midwest and onto the main Atlantic corridor that will eventually link Sligo and possibly Donegal/Derry.

It is not a public transport solution, it is a route to move goods, HGV, and people from one area of the country to another quickly and safely.
Believe it or not, there are motorways in the likes of Germany, Holland, Sweden etc..

Public transport is an urban/suburban issue. That is bus routes, Luas, cycleways and so on.
To have a modern sustainable economy we need both.

The thing with public transport is though is that politically its harder to get through. Just see the issues with Bus Connects and the Metro South line.

PeadarCo · 03-03-2020 2:08pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

In an Irish contest Cork and Limerick are large urban areas.

Why not build a decent railway, build cycling and trams in Cork and Limerick. If after we done that and there is a still a demand for the demand and to be honest between Cork and Limerick there probably will be then build the motorway.

What have we done built motorways , the rest be damned .

Intercity motorways are an investment in public transport something which the growth of private bus companies attests to.

Two nobody is saying don't invest in public transport and related facilities in Cork or Limerick. The aims of both are very different.

Thirdly the Irish economy is very Dublin centric and this can be seen in the Irish transport infrastructure and services. A better connection between Cork Limerick and Galway helps build some sort of counterweight.

And fourthly judging from some posters here the current road is inadequate for a number of reasons.

Fred Cryton · 03-03-2020 2:27pm

abcabc123123 wrote: »

Building new motorways increases the number of cars on the road. It increases car dependency, increases emissions, increases pollution and increases sprawl.

So are you saying we should have left the M50 at 2 lanes instead of 3? Would the traffic be better or worse if we had? In fact, if it was up to you Greens the M50 would never have been built.

You greens have no concept of rural ireland. How do you suggest people commute into Cork or Limerick without using their car? There might be one bus a day going a single route at irregular times. What would you have, hundreds of buses in all directions? And where would they drive if there's no roads to drive on!

LeinsterDub · 03-03-2020 2:35pm

Fred Cryton wrote: »

So are you saying we should have left the M50 at 2 lanes instead of 3? Would the traffic be better or worse if we had? In fact, if it was up to you Greens the M50 would never have been built.

You say that like it's a bad thing. Imagine Dublin with Metro West instead of it's Motorway/carpark

Fred Cryton wrote: »

You greens have no concept of rural ireland. How do you suggest people commute into Cork or Limerick without using their car? There might be one bus a day going a single route at irregular times. What would you have, hundreds of buses in all directions? And where would they drive if there's no roads to drive on!

Cycle , walk , get the bus or train ? You're giving out about the lack of public transport , so are we . Let's do something about it!

Chips Lovell · 03-03-2020 2:39pm

Whatever about inter-city motorways, the M50 expansion is a classic case of Jevons' Paradox. If you look at the census data, it's evident that there's a huge swathe of commuters in Dublin who're driving to work not out of necessity, but out of choice.

osarusan · 03-03-2020 2:42pm

Cork-Limerick road is an artery for transport of goods as well as people, with trucks making sh!t of the existing roads - Buttevant being the prime example.

The road is needed - no reason that it can't come with increased public transport options.

sid waddell · 03-03-2020 3:00pm

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

It's a city of 70,000?

Why does it need an orbital dual carriageway then?

LeinsterDub · 03-03-2020 3:09pm

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

It's a city of 70,000?

How about we start with bus lanes instead?

abcabc123123 · 03-03-2020 3:12pm

Fred Cryton wrote: »

So are you saying we should have left the M50 at 2 lanes instead of 3? Would the traffic be better or worse if we had? In fact, if it was up to you Greens the M50 would never have been built.

Indeed, a pity. The M50 has contributed enormously to the sprawl surrounding Dublin and towards making it one of the most congested cities in Europe.

How do you suggest people commute into Cork or Limerick without using their car

Between the two; ideally using rail infrastructure that we'd build/upgrade. Otherwise using BRT combined with extensive park and ride facilities.

@banie, I'm posting from my phone in work so I don't really have time to adequately respond to your points; I will try to do so later this evening if I can. Thanks.

PommieBast · 03-03-2020 4:05pm

banie01 wrote: »

Going back to the electorate with a view this Dublin centric will cost the Green's a lot of votes outside the Pale IMO.

Do the Greens actually have any TDs outside the greater-Dublin area?

LeinsterDub · 03-03-2020 4:42pm

PommieBast wrote: »

Do the Greens actually have any TDs outside the greater-Dublin area?

https://www.greenparty.ie/our-people/representatives/?filter=representatives&representatives=oireachtas
Yes

efanton · 03-03-2020 5:50pm

for those suggesting widening the road it simply is not possible.
With a rail line running along one side of the route for long stretches and natural obstacles such as rivers and a huge quarry that would take hundred of millions to level every stretch that could be widened has been already.
There obviously a lot of people commenting that have never driven the route, nor even bothered to open google maps.

Add to this there are severe dangerous bends on many stretches and narrow roads through small town and villages that cannot be widened. Yes you could bypass them, but by the time you have put in a by pass for Charleville, Buttevant Twopothouse, and Mallow you have built a 1/4 of the proposed motorway anyhow,and still not tackled the most dangerous stretches of the N20

For those talking about public transport, there is NONE.
The only busses that run are the express busses from Cork to Limerick that stop in Mallow, Buttevant, Ballyhea and Charleville. All the other towns between Cork and Limerick have no bus service whatsoever.
If you happen to want to get the bus from Cork to Charleville at 18:20 in the evening that bus is always full to capacity With frequently 20 people or more unable to board the bus. No additional buses are ever laid on, so you wait for the next bus an hour later and hope to get on that. Private operators will not touch the route with a barge pole because during peak periods (the time these companies make their profits) a bus from Cork to Charleville could easily take 1 hour 20 minutes and it will then take a further 40 minutes to reach Limerick. The route is simply not a viable option for public transport because the road is so bad. If there is an accident, and they are frequent, you could easily add another 30 minutes to that time as there are no alternative routes.

Even if the Green's were to fund extra busses, you still have the problem that most of the people that commute to Cork or Limerick do not live in a town on the N20. So what are they to do? Drive to the nearest town on the N20 park their cars in non existent car parks and try get the bus or train only to find that all seats are taken anyhow?

So why not use the train. Irish rail in their infinite wisdom rarely stop in Charleville or Mallow, they go non stop from Limerick Junction to Cork. If you do get the only train that travels from Charleville to Cork early in the morning, you arrive AFTER 9am. Try explaining to your boss that you will be at least half hour late every morning.

As for those commenting on urban sprawl, its happening already. Even if you have the money to buy or rent a house in Cork city those properties do not exist. Private estates are popping up in every village and town between Cork and Limerick because of that.
So even if you wanted to increase public transport you would need the M20 to do so.

There is no possibility of running commuter trains because they would interfere with the express trains and laying another track would be virtually impossible because of terrain and existing obstacles, it would be far cheaper to actually build the motorway.
Even if you somehow manged to put on extra bus services on the N20 you still haven't dealt with the vast majority of commuters that live in small towns and villages not on the N20 but use it to get to work.

I had to commute in all weathers, rain sleet and snow on a motorcycle everyday to UCC simply because there was no alternative, I would have loved nothing better than to sit in a nice warm bus or train.

The reality is that providing an adequate public transport service for commuters would require huge subsidies from the government in order for it to be viable, or building the M20 anyhow so that those buses could run efficiently.

Successive governments have refused to spend any money on the dangerous stretches always stating there was no point as a motorway was due to be built. If the government doesn't build a motorway they will still have to spend millions on remedial work and probably hundred of millions for the bypasses.

What the Green Party is advocating will cost this country BILLIONS and still not fix the core problems. Instead a M20 is estimated to cost 800 million. Of course they could just forget that there is more than one county in the country and ignore the problem completely.

LeinsterDub · 03-03-2020 5:54pm

efanton wrote: »

The reality is that providing an adequate public transport service for commuters would require huge subsidies from the government in order for it to be viable, or building the M20 anyhow so that those buses could run efficiently.

Successive governments have refused to spend any money on the dangerous stretches always stating there was no point as a motorway was due to be built. If the government doesn't build a motorway they will still have to spend millions on remedial work and probably hundred of millions for the bypasses.

What the Green Party is advocating will cost this country BILLIONS and still not fix the core problems. Instead a M20 is estimated to cost 800 million. Of course they could just forget that there is more than one county in the country and ignore the problem completely.

You do know that roads require huge subsidies and cost the country Billions too? We've tried roads it was a failure , your solution to try the failed policy again for some reason?

sid waddell · 03-03-2020 6:02pm

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

There's 5x that amount in county if not more. Road would serve more people

And how many of them are west of Galway city?

LeinsterDub · 03-03-2020 6:04pm

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Why does it have to be either or choice? Bypass takes cars out of city that don't need to go there freeing up roads for public transport

Bypass doesn't take car out of the city is the problem . It hasn't worked in Dublin , London or anywhere . All bypasses do is encourage even more demand. This will be Galway's second bypass/ring road least you forget. Allocation space to cycling and buses takes cars out of cities , banning cars takes out of cities . Motorway just get even more cars to the edge of cities to get stuck in traffic

Not even the designers of the bypass are claiming it will reduced traffic
https://twitter.com/ccferrie/status/1234438833397211136

efanton · 03-03-2020 6:05pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

You do know that roads require huge subsidies and cost the country Billions too? We've tried roads it was a failure , your solution to try the failed policy again for some reason?

So the N7 out side of the Dublin sprawl was a failure?
THe N8 another failure?
The M6 to Galway yet another failure?
By building those motorways it made those route viable for private bus companies. If they were not built the only services would be state run and probably subsidised by the state. I'm sure you just want another excuse to pay more taxation.

Building motorways such as the M50 slap bang in the middle of cities was and will continue to be a failure. But why were they built, because the government took the cheap option, it wasn't about providing quicker commuting times, or addressing the grid lock, it was simply cheaper than build more Luas lines or more lines for commuter trains.

But building motorways between cities does offer good value for money, does significantly reduce gridlock in towns along the existing roads and does provide a new openings for private bus companies to offer new routes.

LeinsterDub · 03-03-2020 6:05pm

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

You know that episode of Sampsons with the monorail song and a snake oil salesman?

You know that episode of the Simpsons where Bart repeatedly tries to steal the cupcake because he never learns?

LeinsterDub · 03-03-2020 6:20pm

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

You suggesting luas in Galway city would help people in connemara?
There's only one crossing over corrib, the rest are 3 small medieval bridges that should be pedestrianised (and or bus only) once bypass is built. To West you have a hospital and university that serves a million people in West, not to mention large housing estates which where built on opposite side of town from most employers

It would because some of the people in Galway who could avail of the Luas wouldn't drive. So there would be more room for those that had to drive

LeinsterDub · 03-03-2020 6:24pm

efanton wrote: »

So the N7 out side of the Dublin sprawl was a failure?
THe N8 another failure?
The M6 to Galway yet another failure?
By building those motorways it made those route viable for private bus companies. If they were not built the only services would be state run and probably subsidised by the state. I'm sure you just want another excuse to pay more taxation.

Building motorways such as the M50 slap bang in the middle of cities was and will continue to be a failure. But why were they built, because the government took the cheap option, it wasn't about providing quicker commuting times, or addressing the grid lock, it was simply cheaper than build more Luas lines or more lines for commuter trains.

But building motorways between cities does offer good value for money, does significantly reduce gridlock in towns along the existing roads and does provide a new openings for private bus companies to offer new routes.

The m50 wasn't in the middle of the city when it was planned and built. It encouraged the sprawling of the city out to and beyond it. Roads are often only cheaper because they are split into phases like the M11.

sid waddell · 03-03-2020 6:36pm

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

You suggesting luas in Galway city would help people in connemara?
There's only one crossing over corrib, the rest are 3 small medieval bridges that should be pedestrianised (and or bus only) once bypass is built. To West you have a hospital and university that serves a million people in West, not to mention large housing estates which where built on opposite side of town from most employers

You're the person that suggested there are masses of people living west of Galway city, not me.

The hospital and university are beside each other. There are pillars in the Corrib from the old railway bridge that could easily accommodate a new light rail bridge and the line could go directly into NUIG, serving the hospital too.

LeinsterDub · 03-03-2020 6:45pm

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

How many exactly is "some"? That would be able to avail of this monorail

And where would tracks go? Very interested in how this wouldn't result in demolition of thousands of homes at time when there's severe housing shortage in Galway

Several tens of thousands. Space would be taken from Cars . Thousands of homes? Are you having a laugh?Worst case scenario a few houses on corners might . Luas in Dublin had nearly no CPO

LeinsterDub · 03-03-2020 6:57pm

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Where exactly? There's a detailed plan for a bypass, where are the plans for a gluas

Your clearly the type who only ever sees the car as the solution

sid waddell · 03-03-2020 7:01pm

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

There are masses of people who have no choice to travel West of city, be it hospital, university or all the residential and amenity areas to West of a river and long lake with one modern crossing. Hospital alone serves a catchment area of a million people from Donegal to Limerick

Show us a plan for this monorail very interested in how many buildings would need to be demolished. You identified a possible bridging point yet ignore that one side is full of modern and expensive university buildings and other side is biggest shopping area with a park on one side and dense housing on other.

Real interested in light rail wet dreams now, at least a monorail would be elevated off the ground

Over 40 houses are to be demolished under plans for the bypass.

A route through NUIG could be easily negotiated.

It's quite easy to map out a route.

Barna - around the back of Barna Woods - Western Distributor Road - Seamus Quirke Road - Hospital/ NUIG - across the Corrib to the start of Dyke Road - Prospect Hill - Eyre Square - Forster Street or Lough Atalia Road - Monivea Road - Mervue - GMIT.

Manach · 03-03-2020 7:10pm

As someone who might be negatively effected by the Motorway plan and given the high handed nature of the planners involved a decade ago about concerns over this, the Greens have a realistic point about public transport being better for all citizens not just motorists.

efanton · 03-03-2020 7:10pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Bypass doesn't take car out of the city is the problem . It hasn't worked in Dublin , London or anywhere . All bypasses do is encourage even more demand. This will be Galway's second bypass/ring road least you forget. Allocation space to cycling and buses takes cars out of cities , banning cars takes out of cities . Motorway just get even more cars to the edge of cities to get stuck in traffic

Not even the designers of the bypass are claiming it will reduced traffic
https://twitter.com/ccferrie/status/1234438833397211136

THe problem thogh is not the bypasses is it?

Its the stupidity of the government to almost immediately rezone the land around them for residential and commercial use. Almost immediately the bypass is now expected to handle significantly more traffic than it was designed for.

Again governments taking the cheap option. Instead of putting a by pass significantly further out to allow for the expansion of a town or city they allow it to become nothing more than a feeder road to retail complexes and huge estates.
The bypass was not a bad idea, it was the planning and rezoning that was a bad idea.

efanton · 03-03-2020 7:13pm

Manach wrote: »

As someone who might be negatively effected by the Motorway plan and given the high handed nature of the planners involved a decade ago about concerns over this, the Greens have a realistic point about public transport being better for all citizens not just motorists.

If you are talking about the N20, what the Green's have proposed comes nowhere close to being realistic.

How would you propose that sufficient public transport be provided to negate the construction of the N20? More to the point exactly how much will that cost?

PeadarCo · 03-03-2020 7:18pm

Chips Lovell wrote: »

Whatever about inter-city motorways, the M50 expansion is a classic case of Jevons' Paradox. If you look at the census data, it's evident that there's a huge swathe of commuters in Dublin who're driving to work not out of necessity, but out of choice.

Expanding the M50 would be crazy. However M50 as it currently stands is good for the city. Its the only crossing of the liffey that's capable of handling large amounts of traffic. Between chaploizod and Lucan, the M50 toll Bridge is the only crossing of the liffey. Both bridges are decades if not centuries old at this stage. Take away the M50 and the city would grind to a halt. To expand on your point relating to Dublin there is a considerable amount of people in Dublin who drive to work by choice not only on the M50 but other parts of the city. There is a good argument for more tolling on the M50 and a congestion charge in Dublin City centre.

However all of that is a completely separate to debate about the proposed M20 motorway. The purpose of such a motorway would be to handle intercity traffic and support regional development and make the existing road safer. It wouldn't be a bypass of either Cork or Limerick. The aims are completely different. It's not a case of motorway bad, public transport good or vice versa. It depends on the situation.

LeinsterDub · 03-03-2020 7:55pm

efanton wrote: »

If you are talking about the N20, what the Green's have proposed comes nowhere close to being realistic.

How would you propose that sufficient public transport be provided to negate the construction of the N20? More to the point exactly how much will that cost?

Train to Limerick to Cork in 30 minutes would certainly beat any such road

efanton · 03-03-2020 8:09pm

Currently the N20 is being used at 120% of its capacity.
Approximately 18,000 vehicles per day.

Just to bring the N20 back to its full capacity level that would mean removing the need for 3,600 vehicles to use that road

THese are 2017 figures so it logical to assume they have increased
https://static.rasset.ie/documents/news/m20-executive-summary-june-2017.pdf

I'm all for environmental measures if they can be put in place, but can someone suggest to me how you are going to provide enough public transport to remove the use of over 3,600 vehicles per day from the N20?

There are usually 56 passenger seats on a bus.
That would be at least 65 coach loads at capacity per day, and thats assuming single occupancy of all vehicles. Coaches operate for 13 hours.
That would be an additional 6 busses running every hour (3 each way) from Cork to Limerick, again assuming single occupancy of vehicles.
Obviously you would have to increase that number of coaches because traffic is not spread evenly during the day. Lets be reasonable and increase that to 5 busses each way to allow for that and allow for a small number of additional seats, and we are still assuming single occupancy for the vehicle removed so in all likely hood yet another two

Thats at least 14 additional busses plus the two that are currently servicing that route.
Bus Eireann uses the IRIZAR i6AD2 coach which come in at a hefty €235,000 a piece.
12 of these coaches will cost €3.3 million.

There is no way that the towns along the N20 could possible handle that amount of coaches. There hardly room for one to park let alone two.

Now on top of that you are now going to have to provide feeder busses to get people from the towns and villages that are not on the N20.
Probably another dozen at least (although cheaper and smaller) as its a fairly long route and the villages and towns are spread too far apart for less busses to cover that area. Now even this might not work because journey times for commuters will have significantly increased, why take 1.5 hours to go to work if you can do it in an hour in your own car, will be the attitude of many

In addition to all that you are still going to have to build the Charleville, Buttevant and Mallow bypasses.

Seriously, can anyone see this possibly working?

efanton · 03-03-2020 8:19pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Train to Limerick to Cork in 30 minutes would certainly beat any such road

Do you just read your own posts. I have already explained why the trains would not work.

THe VAST MAJORITY of people using the N20 do not live in Cork or Limerick, they use the N20 to commute to them. What good is a express train that travels from Limerick Junction to Cork city if it doesn't stop anywhere in between.
You forgot about the additional train journey required to get from Limerick city to Limerick junction by the way, another 20 to 30 minutes assuming the trains are on time which is not always the case. Sometimes the express train has to wait at Limerick Junction for the connection. Also those trains are already at full capacity by the time the get to Limerick so are we going to buy more trains now along with dozens of busses?
I have done that journey many times and I can guarantee you even with the appalling traffic a car is still quicker.

03-03-2020 9:01pm

abcabc123123 wrote: »

Building new motorways ... increases emissions.

My EV doesn't increase emissions because it is powered by renewable energy.
By 2030 ICE cars will be banned in Ireland so people like me won't be in the minority.
Ireland is already producing 33% of electricity from renewable sources and if the Green party had their priorities in order that will be closer to 100% by then.
Also, I regularly take intercity buses on the motorway network. I've even taken electric buses inter-city.
Motorways are the conduit for emission free public transport. They are not the problem.
I'm very thankful that the M4/M6 were approved before the Greens could scupper them.

efanton · 03-03-2020 9:40pm

Deleted User wrote: »

My EV doesn't increase emissions because it is powered by renewable energy.
By 2030 ICE cars will be banned in Ireland so people like me won't be in the minority.
Ireland is already producing 33% of electricity from renewable sources and if the Green party had their priorities in order that will be closer to 100% by then.
Also, I regularly take intercity buses on the motorway network. I've even taken electric buses inter-city.
Motorways are the conduit for emission free public transport. They are not the problem.
I'm very thankful that the M4/M6 were approved before the Greens could scupper them.

In any other country that would be true.
But have you thought about what fuels are used to generate that electricity?
70% of electricity generation in Ireland is produced through the use of fossil fuels.

Then add to that that nearly 8% of all electricity generated is lost during transmission over the grid and electric vehicles are not as friendly and many would hope at the moment.
Having said that Ireland is slowly reducing its reliance on fossil fuels for electricity generation and we should be in reasonably good shape in 10 years time.
ESB are currently doing a overhaul of the national grid to reduce transmission loss but that will take longer.

A lad I know who works in the electricity sector worked out that it is actually greener to still use an 600cc petrol engine motorcycle than switch to a electric motorcycle based on those figures.
For a 800 cc engine he reckons that you are at break even where a petrol engine is no better or worse than electric. A 1 litre petrol car is marginally worse for the environment.
Then apparently as you go up in engine capacity the impact on the environment dramatically rises.
Obviously this will change rapidly as less fossil fuels are used to generate electricity.

03-03-2020 9:44pm

I don't need to think about it as I know my employer buys electricity from renewable sources for everything on campus.

Greens demand improved public transport take priority over Cork/Limerick motorway

Comments