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Greens demand improved public transport take priority over Cork/Limerick motorway
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This.
Again, people are willfully getting the two mixed up.
Are those people saying that the inter-urbans we built 10-15 years ago were a mistake?
Do you think it was a mistake to build the M8 to Cork, reducting travel times from 4-5 hours to 2.5 hours?
Or the M4 to Galway, the M7 to Limerick, the M11 towards Rosslare or the M1 to Belfast?
These roads have been a boom to the economy and will pay for themsleves mulitple times. Remember, these roads to going to be with for over 100 years. Your great great grandkids will be driving their self driving electric cars on these very roads.
What we have not done well though is Public Transport in urban areas, for reasons mentioned before.
Saying we should prortise public transport ahead of road building, then advocate a rail link from Cork to Limerick, which will cost as much if not more, do nothing to sort out the N20 itself, and will not be used anywhere near as much as an M20 is just idealogical bull****.
The Greens were advocating some sort of fantasy project when it came to the recent M28 dicussions. Instead they were toying with the idea of some rail connecter or some ****, even though 99% of containers and cargo is moved by HGV's... rail freight on this island is dead! Yet, like usefull idiots they harp on about ideas, referring to their idealogical purity rather than sensible solutions.
And yes, yes, yes, yes we should be pouring billions into public transport projects into Dublin and other urban areas. BusConnects should be expeditated as well as the Metro Link. You will never get a no from me, when it comes to bus lanes and good quality cycle lanes in our urban areas.
As I said before, the likes of Holland, Sweden, Denmark do this stuff in their urban areas, but guess what they also have motorways connecting their cities!
God post, a post that every Green party supporter should read before commenting further lest the embarrass themselves.0 -
The demand for rail is clearly there. All I'm saying is invest. We've pumped billions into roads and got congestion and continue to do so every year. We need to rebalance that. Which means some road projects, maybe not the m20 but some will be delayedUnless you are going to build more train tracks so that these trains don't crash, YES it is a totally mad idea.
You have two tracks, one going north one going south, you are advocating putting an extra train on each track that is going significantly slower than the express train from Dublin to Cork or vice versa. Can you seriously think that something bad might not happen?
Do you actually think through an argument before posting? Obvious not.
Even if there is no collision what you have achieved is the express train is no longer being an express train because now it has to stop at every station a commuter train must stop. It is no long an express train, no longer economically viable and now there will be increased traffic on the roads.
In effect you have made matters far worse. All this to benefit far less people than building motorway as you have previous admitted.
The obvious solution would be to build a third track, but because trains need a relatively level course, this would mean significant, and I mean really significant, civil engineering. You would have to cut through many geologic formation, bridge many rivers, at some locations not even be able to run a track parallel to the existing rail lines. The cost of this would likely be very close to or exceeding the cost of building a new motorway and that is not even considering the cost of the new trains you want to put on these tracks.
Even if you somehow managed to build this new rail line, you still have not eliminated the multiple deaths and serious injuries caused by a national road unfit for purpose. Nor have have you dealt with the issue of commuters getting to train stations.
I suggest that you either live in a rural areas for a while, or actually think through thoroughly any proposed scheme the Green party had before making a fool of yourself.
There is an extremely good reason why the Green party do not cost their manifesto's, its simply because they are currently totally both un-affordable an unfeasible. Hopefully in the future when the capital expenditure projects that should have been put in place a decade or more ago are consruct we can the think to how we can make the country more environmentally friendly. I would love nothing more personally than a environmentally friendly way of commuting, but first you must have the infrastructure in place to achieve those aims.
Personally I have always given the Green party a transfer vote, not because I believe they could possibly deliver a fraction of what is in their manifesto, but because it make other parties think twice about the environment before proceeding with a capital expenditure.
Sadly my logic was was proven totally wrong, if this project is cancelled the green party will ever get my vote or a transfer again, and no doubt thousands of people in Munster share that view.
What the green party is currently doing is killing any support they might gather and more importantly any influence they might have on other parties that do hold the country's purse strings.0 -
Does anyone pay attention to most of the trains in Ireland being diesels?0
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PommieBast wrote: »Does anyone pay attention to most of the trains in Ireland being diesels?
Still more efficient than 400 + cars and the NTA are going to expand the DART into the GDA0 -
Join Date:Posts: 22733
It's probably worth pointing out that there is a difference between recognising the benefits of inter-city motorways and arguing where they should lie on the overall list of transport spending priorities. At any one time, there is a transport "wishlist" which is far longer than what we have a capital budget for.
And there is some merit in reassessing those priorities because we have in the past few decades been heavily weighting that spending towards roads. If you look at how well developed public transport is in other European countries, you realise how far we've fallen behind.
Secondly, its probably worth considering the unintended consequences of inter-city motorways. Because, while they're good for moving goods and people between cities, there is a tendency here for them to also encourage urban sprawl, i.e. people moving to outlying counties and using the motorways to drive into work. The long term fix is better urban planning, but the short term fix may be a more thoughtful approach to motorway tolling.0 -
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I don't buy the "better than" arguments. In the past I came across a paper that compared pppm CO2 figures for various forms of transport. Public transport is not that rosy for off-peak travel.LeinsterDub wrote: »Still more efficient than 400 + cars and the NTA are going to expand the DART into the GDA
The motorway vs railway arguments don't address the underlying problem: Oil-powered infrastructure.0 -
PommieBast wrote: »I don't buy the "better than" arguments. In the past I came across a paper that compared pppm CO2 figures for various forms of transport. Public transport is not that rosy for off-peak travel.
The motorway vs railway arguments don't address the underlying problem: Oil-powered infrastructure.
PT will move away from oil much quicker than private travel0 -
I'm not so sure. A car would typically be scrapped within 15 years, whereas train rolling stock has a design life of 40-50 years.LeinsterDub wrote: »PT will move away from oil much quicker than private travel0 -
LeinsterDub wrote: »The demand for rail is clearly there. All I'm saying is invest. We've pumped billions into roads and got congestion and continue to do so every year. We need to rebalance that. Which means some road projects, maybe not the m20 but some will be delayed
I would agree with you if Irish Rail were intent on offering a commuter service that most people could use.
But they are not. Why do trains no longer stop at the majority of stations?
Why does Irish Rail only serve the big cities and major towns?
Fares have increased dramatically over the last couple of decades while services have been reduced.
Irish Rail are supposed to provide a state service for the benefit of the people of Ireland. Obviously they are run as a private enterprise and must aim to make profit, but it seems they have cherry picked the most profitable routes and now refuse to offer any service that might not be as profitable.
What would be the reaction in Dublin if Dublin Bus decided it was going to stop running the majority of their routes, refuse to stop at most of the bus stops, but instead concentrated on delivering a high speed better quality service to only their most profitable routes. There would be utter uproar, yet Irish Rail have done exactly this.
Irish Rail are concentrating on high speed intercity routes, which definitely are needed, but totally neglecting local services. Effectively they have gone the motorway model rather than the national road model, and yet people are saying we should not spend money delivering a national network of motorways.
Do they not see the contradiction in their own arguments?
We need both motorways and increased rail use. But in my opinion you deliver the projects that will benefit most people first and the project that will give you most bang for your buck before moving on the an idealised conception of how things should be in a transport utopia.
Introducing a public transport network into a predominantly rural region is fraught with complexity, will take decades to deliver and be initially extremely expensive. Just look at Dublin, they have spent decades and billions delivering a public transport network that although not perfect is adequate, but still requires significant investment and improvement.
Delivering public transport projects in areas of high population density such as Dublin is significantly easier than in areas of low population densities.
If it has taken decades to introduce in Dublin how long do you think it would take in rural Cork and Limerick.
The N20 motorway has to take priority over all other projects in the Munster region my opinion, its the one that's going to give us most bang for our buck, but that doesn't mean you have to stop there.0 -
PommieBast wrote: »I'm not so sure. A car would typically be scrapped within 15 years, whereas train rolling stock has a design life of 40-50 years.
All you need to replace is the locos0 -
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I would agree with you if Irish Rail were intent on offering a commuter service that most people could use.
But they are not. Why do trains no longer stop at the majority of stations?
Why does Irish Rail only serve the big cities and major towns?
Fares have increased dramatically over the last couple of decades while services have been reduced.
Irish Rail are supposed to provide a state service for the benefit of the people of Ireland. Obviously they are run as a private enterprise and must aim to make profit, but it seems they have cherry picked the most profitable routes and now refuse to offer any service that might not be as profitable.
What would be the reaction in Dublin if Dublin Bus decided it was going to stop running the majority of their routes, refuse to stop at most of the bus stops, but instead concentrated on delivering a high speed better quality service to only their most profitable routes. There would be utter uproar, yet Irish Rail have done exactly this.
Irish Rail are concentrating on high speed intercity routes, which definitely are needed, but totally neglecting local services. Effectively they have gone the motorway model rather than the national road model, and yet people are saying we should not spend money delivering a national network of motorways.
Do they not see the contradiction in their own arguments?
We need both motorways and increased rail use. But in my opinion you deliver the projects that will benefit most people first and the project that will give you most bang for your buck before moving on the an idealised conception of how things should be in a transport utopia.
Introducing a public transport network into a predominantly rural region is fraught with complexity, will take decades to deliver and be initially extremely expensive. Just look at Dublin, they have spent decades and billions delivering a public transport network that although not perfect is adequate, but still requires significant investment and improvement.
Delivering public transport projects in areas of high population density such as Dublin is significantly easier than in areas of low population densities.
If it has taken decades to introduce in Dublin how long do you think it would take in rural Cork and Limerick.
The N20 motorway has to take priority over all other projects in the Munster region my opinion, its the one that's going to give us most bang for our buck, but that doesn't mean you have to stop there.
Because their budgets are constantly and consistently gutted . DART expansion is a no brainier and has been delayed for 40 years. IE don't set their budgets FF and FG do
What billions and billions in Dublin? 2 Luas lines which are constantly full and cost about 1.5 BL max. Surely that's a sign of success not failure.
Again why does every PT discussion boil down to " Sure you can't drive a car to the moon" . We are talking about connecting the 2nd and 3rd biggest urban area in the state including a number of towns and villages which could grow. Not a collection of townlands0 -
How about a compromise and built an e-highway lane like is being trailed in germany?
https://cleantechnica.com/2019/05/29/germany-launches-ehighway-project/
It would be possible to run freight and busses electrically by just wiring up the motorway. That would give you wonderful, clean public transit and freight along a corridor and it's not disruptive to the rest of the traffic as the 100km/h traffic just moves along in lane 1 with overhead wires and pantographs, much like a train or the Luas.
We could potentially have a series of radial corridors out of Dublin and a link up the Cork-Limerick-Galway western spine too, all running on motorway and all being 100% green energy driven.
We don't have the density to do some of the serious high speed rail links, but we could do this.
Also just ensure there are really good eCar charge points on all of those routes.
It would take some buy in from transit and trucking operators, but I'm sure with the right accounting you could probably get tax breaks, EU funding and so on to offset a lot of it.
It just seems like a technology that would actually work across our relatively low-traffic long distance motorway network and could end up being a far cheaper alternative to rolling out heavy rail infrastructure as you'd effectively be using the same infrastructure for two different technologies.0 -
How about a compromise and built an e-highway lane like is being trailed in germany?
https://cleantechnica.com/2019/05/29/germany-launches-ehighway-project/
It would be possible to run freight and busses electrically by just wiring up the motorway. That would give you wonderful, clean public transit and freight along a corridor and it's not disruptive to the rest of the traffic as the 100km/h traffic just moves along in lane 1 with overhead wires and pantographs, much like a train or the Luas.
We could potentially have a series of radial corridors out of Dublin and a link up the Cork-Limerick-Galway western spine too, all running on motorway and all being 100% green energy driven.
We don't have the density to do some of the serious high speed rail links, but we could do this.
Also just ensure there are really good eCar charge points on all of those routes.
It would take some buy in from transit and trucking operators, but I'm sure with the right accounting you could probably get tax breaks, EU funding and so on to offset a lot of it.
It just seems like a technology that would actually work across our relatively low-traffic long distance motorway network and could end up being a far cheaper alternative to rolling out heavy rail infrastructure as you'd effectively be using the same infrastructure for two different technologies.
Why not. Seems feasible and more importantly its something that can be implemented in stages according to what funding might be possible.
I'm all for doing things greener if they dont prevent implemention of the infrastructure we need immediately.0 -
The expensive part? Most trains seem to be MTU anyway.LeinsterDub wrote: »All you need to replace is the locos
Anyway I don't see any major electrification projects on the horizon. Unless you can correct me on that point..0 -
This obsession with cars and mistrust of PT in Ireland is a bit peculiar. PT is possible everywhere in Europe bar UK (not whole) and Ireland.
Coming from a country with extensive PT systems both inter- and intra-urban ones, I just don't get the "it's not going to work". For example my home city (about the size of Belfast) has 13 tram lines, about 15 bus lines and 10 electric bus lines. You can get to almost any place in the city within say 300m walking distance by PT.
Now the overall country rail network is so extensive that you can get into most towns and villages by train. Most large towns and cities are all served by electrified trains, only local village sort of trains are diesel trains.
From this perspective the situation in Ireland is quite shocking - trains are not even electrified, the network is quite poor, functional PT is nonexistent outside of Dublin, even in Dublin 2 tram lines is way behind Europe and there's no tube, Dart saves it somewhat, other than that outside of Dublin the PT is provided by tiny carcinogenic diesel buses, all the talk about BusConnect is laughable - literally nobody is focusing on buses in Europe, all larger cities have trams, tubes or intracity rail, buses are only supplementary and typically emission free nowadays.
The main issue apart from the mental anti-PT syndrome is a chronic underinvestment. Ireland has progressed from agrarian country, which hardly went through an industrialisation phase like the continental Europe (esp after ww2), straight to service based economy. Essentially skipping the industrialisation phase and combined with low-tax low-investment policy the current situation is the result. Plus almost all investment goes to Dublin and even that is insufficient.
The Greens are correct in that there should be a high speed Limerick to Cork rail - the current solution with "Limerick Junction" actually off Tipp Town is let's say interesting. But they are not correct about the M20. They should demand both. All infrastructure spending just can't go to Dublin, its unsustainable. The 2nd and 3rd city must get investment. They absolutely need to be connected by motorway, in that way there will be a motorway route from Galway via Ennis, Limerick up to Cork connecting the largest settlements in the West and South and 2nd,3rd and 4th largest cities in the country.
This needs few things - political will and money. And money needs higher taxes. Ireland will never get enough money to build & run proper infrastructure projects and bridge the huge infrastructure gap between its infrastructure and continental Europe infrastructure with a low-tax regime. Either the government will need to borrowed money (not advisable with a 110% GNI to debt ratio) or increase taxes.
Irish taxes are indeed low overall. So you can't do much with a small budget really. Even if government wasn't ideologically opposed to infrastructure outside of Dublin and even if it was competently managing the resources. There are reserves in the budget for sure and it could be re-priorotised but I'd imagine such resources would be quote marginal (few % of the budget). Raising taxes is the only way if you want more infrastructure. And secondly, the local government system needs to be totally revamped, in current state Ireland is one of the most centralised country in OECD and that just doesn't work as everyone can see...
Over and out.0 -
To be quite honest, I still think think we tend to idealise a 1950s American style suburbanisation and scatter housing to the Great Plains type approach and it's actually in some respects worse here as there's very poor adherence to zoning of land in some areas and an expectation, that is often met, that if you build something way off grid that it must be served as well as if it's in the middle of Dublin or Cork.
We've a huge issue with lack of density of not just cities, but also we don't really create towns and aggressively undermine them. If you think of your average Irish village, there is a core of old housing in the middle which can be quite quaint and all the population is living scattered in the hinterland, moaning about broadband and shopping in the local drive-up Lidl, while moaning some more about the loss of rural village life.
We don't really do urban and we also don't really do village or rural life. It's basically a notion of the big bungalow on the field and drive up to the local strip mall.
The result has been failing rural life - villages with nothing in them. Unsustainable infrastructure - we struggle to roll things like broadband out as nowhere else is trying to provide broadband to a bunch of randomly scattered rural houses. That's usually an exceptional situation, not a normal one and most of the technologies were designed around hub and spoke networks that expected lines to be about 1km long max. In Ireland we've had a lot of low density ribbon and one off developments without any notion of how we were going to service it.
Then add things like water pollution being caused by septic tanks. How exactly can you connect thousands and thousands of scattered homes to a public sewer system.
It rolls into public transport being unworkable, road networks being so huge that they're not able to be maintained and umpteen other infrastructure issues that are generated by everything being so scattered.
How are people going to get to hospitals, doctors and so on? How are older people even going to function at all without access to car transport as they get into their 80s and become unable to drive? People are ending up very isolated and that is inevitably going to get worse.
Then to make matters worse, we've a mentality that tends to pit "Dublin" vs "Down the Country" and that's something that I find is in the heads of both people in Dublin and people in "rural Ireland" who are quite Dublin-centric in their view of the world. It tends to completely ignore and undermine the other cities. You regularly get sneering at say a demand for public transit in Cork or Limerick etc, as the mentality is "that's down the country" and they compare a city of circa 300,000 with a village somewhere as sure "it's non-Dublin".
Even the commentary in the media will give you things like "house prices in Dublin" and "house prices outside Dublin" which lumps expensive parts of Cork City in with remote parts of Leitrim and is as useful as a chocolate teapot.
My view of it is that in the medium term we need to look at greening the infrastructure we have - things like e-highways and e-cars may not be an ideal solution, but our country isn't ideally laid out or planned and we've a complete mess to mitigate or we're going to be fined from here to hell and back under agreements we signed up to.
We're not going to achieve an ideal layout here, as we've decades of legacy of bad planning and illogical approaches to infrastructure, so we're going to have to go for least worst options.
Morphing Ireland into being like parts of the continent that have had all those things right for decades is simply not going to happen both because of that legacy and because of political and cultural expectations here that are unlikely to change.
Also we need to get a bit realistic about clapping ourselves on the back about being "The best little green country in Europe". We're not. We're a complete gas guzzling disgrace and we tend to be unable to accept that as we like to get lost in the misty eyed wonder of the green landscape that we're wrecking.
To be quite honest, I find Ireland can be full of rather self righteous hypocrites at times. We're quite quick to laugh at and critique gluttonous Americans and then go and do exactly the same thing ourselves.0 -
I would agree with you if Irish Rail were intent on offering a commuter service that most people could use.
But they are not. Why do trains no longer stop at the majority of stations?
Why does Irish Rail only serve the big cities and major towns?
Fares have increased dramatically over the last couple of decades while services have been reduced.
Irish Rail are supposed to provide a state service for the benefit of the people of Ireland. Obviously they are run as a private enterprise and must aim to make profit, but it seems they have cherry picked the most profitable routes and now refuse to offer any service that might not be as profitable.
What would be the reaction in Dublin if Dublin Bus decided it was going to stop running the majority of their routes, refuse to stop at most of the bus stops, but instead concentrated on delivering a high speed better quality service to only their most profitable routes. There would be utter uproar, yet Irish Rail have done exactly this.
Irish Rail are concentrating on high speed intercity routes, which definitely are needed, but totally neglecting local services. Effectively they have gone the motorway model rather than the national road model, and yet people are saying we should not spend money delivering a national network of motorways.
Do they not see the contradiction in their own arguments?
We need both motorways and increased rail use. But in my opinion you deliver the projects that will benefit most people first and the project that will give you most bang for your buck before moving on the an idealised conception of how things should be in a transport utopia.
Introducing a public transport network into a predominantly rural region is fraught with complexity, will take decades to deliver and be initially extremely expensive. Just look at Dublin, they have spent decades and billions delivering a public transport network that although not perfect is adequate, but still requires significant investment and improvement.
Delivering public transport projects in areas of high population density such as Dublin is significantly easier than in areas of low population densities.
If it has taken decades to introduce in Dublin how long do you think it would take in rural Cork and Limerick.
The N20 motorway has to take priority over all other projects in the Munster region my opinion, its the one that's going to give us most bang for our buck, but that doesn't mean you have to stop there.
Public transport in Dublin is far from adequate.
Rail transport in Ireland should be for commuters only. No point in trains stopping at Nenagh or Templemore or other very small towns.0 -
Public transport in Dublin is far from adequate.
Rail transport in Ireland should be for commuters only. No point in trains stopping at Nenagh or Templemore or other very small towns.
Are you suggesting that people in living Nenagh are not commuters?
There's an awful lot of them driving to and from Limerick every day. Likewise for Roscrea.
But your point about Dublin public transport being inadequate was precisely my point about the N20 and those advocating increased rail services between Cork and Limerick.
For 20 years or more nearly all public transport projects have been predominantly in Dublin or Cork city and those are still not near top class. If they still have sorted them out how would it be at all feasible to suggest a public transport solution for the rural areas between Cork and Limerick. It would be impossible to do so in a relatively short amount of time.
Get the M20 built and then look to providing public transport in areas that currently do not have public transport where it is feasible to do so. For most areas in North Cork and South Limerick I doubt it could be done and break even.0 -
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The reason public transport is inadequate is that we've consistently under-invested in it relative to our peers. You can't get "top class" public transport for bottom of the class investment.
For example, our investment in rail infrastructure was the second lowest in the EU over a 21 year period:
By contrast, our investment in roads during the same period was ahead of the EU average:
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This is just more madness by the Greens, they really havent a clue about the requirements of rural Ireland. Im all for good public transport but the Cork-Limerick route can never be adequately served by it.
The M20 connects two of Irelands largest three cities so its a no brainer and should have been done years before some of the other motorways that are running under capacity. There is lots of employment in Cork and Limerick, both have airports and both have seaports and lots of goods move between the two. The current N20 is also one of the most dangerous roads in the country.
Not building the M20 is just yet another hair brained idea by Eamon Ryan. This is the same lad who was trying to throw spanners into the works of the Metro by suggesting it be built out to his constituency at a cost of an extra 3 billion while ignoring where the magic money was going to come from. So on one hand he advocates public transport but then when the route is chosen he comes along with his crayons and does his level best to delay it further for some short term local parish pump gain. He's a hypocrite, pure and simple.0 -
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By the way, as far as I can see, the Greens have never said the M20 shouldn't be built, but have rather questioned its prioritisation ahead of public transport.
Prior to the election, Ryan was saying that there may be cheaper routes and the money saved could be invested in public transport in Cork city:The Irish Times revealed last week that the original estimate for the cost of the Mallow-Charleville Route of €850-€900 million was from 2010 and that a more recent estimate would put the cost at €1.2 billion.
But Cork city based Green Party Cllr Oliver Moran said he believed utilising the existing M8 as far as Mitchelstown and then bringing a route north to link up with the Limerick-Waterford Road near Limerick would cost just 50per cent of that.
Mr Ryan said the next government should look at all options but if it did choose a route via Mitchelstown, then the savings made on money allocated for the M20 should be ringfenced to improve public transport in Cork and Limerick.0 -
Chips Lovell wrote: »By the way, as far as I can see, the Greens have never said the M20 shouldn't be built, but have rather questioned its prioritisation ahead of public transport.
Prior to the election, Ryan was saying that there may be cheaper routes and the money saved could be invested in public transport in Cork city:
The Greens certainly have, only as recently as a few days ago.
https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/greens-demand-improved-public-transport-take-priority-over-corklimerick-motorway-985361.htmlThe Green Party has insisted that providing for added public transport should take priority over the delivery of major new motorways including the M20 between Cork and Limerick in talks with Fine Gael.
They better hope there is no second election, they will lose a ton votes and probably a few seats.0 -
The Greens certainly have, only as recently as a few days ago.
https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/greens-demand-improved-public-transport-take-priority-over-corklimerick-motorway-985361.html
They better hope there is no second election, they will lose a ton votes and probably a few seats.
Again trying public transport first isn't saying no to the M20 forever0 -
LeinsterDub wrote: »Again trying public transport first isn't saying no to the M20 forever
Public transport is something that the people in the area would like.
The M20 is what they NEED and are asking for.
There is ZERO public transport in the area at the moment. To introduce public transport that's in anyway sufficient would mean building that system up from scratch, take a decade, and probably be more expensive than the M20.
So are you happy with wasting money, and then paying extra taxation to fix the complete balls up that the first attempt will be, onlyto probably redo the whole thing again because that's exactly what will happen.
Even if they wanted to put new trains in they couldnt.
Irish Rail already have to wait 3 years for an order of new carriages for existing routes
https://www.thejournal.ie/new-train-carriages-nta-4846139-Oct2019/
Even if the government were prepared to wait for another 3 years for the extra rolling stock, the costs and work required for any sort of adequate public transport system would be simply horrendous.
Add up the costs and time delays for the following
40 carriages at 150 million
4 new trains so that they can run half hourly commuter services that stop at the main towns, probably as much again
A new line and switching equipment, along side the existing track where it is possible so that local commuter trains do not interfere with the express trains
additional parking at these rail stations
dozens of feeder busses to get people from surrounding towns and villages.
Construction of new bus stops and depots for these busses.
12 new coaches in addition to the existing 2 coaches that service the Cork to Limerick route
new infrastructure in both Cork and Limerick for loading and unloading of passenger as both bus stations are running at capacity.
AND still build the bypasses in Charleville, Buttevant and Mallow that would still have to be built even if the M20 isn't
Planning permission for all the above infrastructure.
Thats what is going to be required to remove nearly 4000 vehicles a day from the N20.
Do you still thinks it sensible to pay and and wait for all that, or build a motorway that will be a hell of a lot quicker and probably far cheaper, that has already got the planning permission and route designed and ready to build?
And then if you still decide to go the PT option you just hope and pray there will be no significant delays, extra costs and overruns, as there is with all these capital projects.
I would love for a public transport option, but its going to take at least a decade, and cost as much. A motorway will be built much quicker, be far more cost effective and open up the potential for private bus companies to provide additional public transport routes in the region. With a motorway you get the public transport far quicker.0 -
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Nah focus on Dublin, lets dump this regional motorway and get Metro North up and running
I know you are trying to be funny, but you must be in dreamland if you think Metro North is going to be in anyway affordable if the Green's are in government.
Have you even tried to read their manifesto
https://www.greenparty.ie/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/GREEN_PARTY_TOWARDS_2030-WEB-VERSION.pdf
I recommend not reading it now, wait till you are close to going to bed.
The list of things they want to do in 10 years is pure fantasy. You will be fast asleep by page ten guaranteed.
Bad enough that what they propose is completely and totally unrealistic, but they have not even attempted to cost one single item of their 66 page wish-list0 -
Why would it be unaffordable if the greens were in government but you seem to think it will be affordable if other parties are in government?I know you are trying to be funny, but you must be in dreamland if you think Metro North is going to be in anyway affordable if the Green's are in government.
What structural differences to it will there be that bump up the cost for the greens?0 -
Could the Government invite some Zurich transport professionals for advice on infrastructure matters? That city is magnificently served by public transport, and while they're at it might they also ask Swiss advisers for assistance with national transport matters?
It would certainly not be a waste of resources if other successful examples were applied here.0 -
What would the point of that be?phater phagan wrote: »Could the Government invite some Zurich transport professionals for advice on infrastructure matters? That city is magnificently served by public transport, and while they're at it might they also ask Swiss advisers for assistance with national transport matters?
It would certainly not be a waste of resources if other successful examples were applied here.
We brought Jared Walker over, looked at his expert opinion and then ran him from the country!0 -
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Seth Brundle wrote: »Why would it be unaffordable if the greens were in government but you seem to think it will be affordable if other parties are in government?
What structural differences to it will there be that bump up the cost for the greens?
Simply because the other parties have a more realistic view of how much can be spent.
Have you read that Green Party manifesto, if not I suggest you make an attempt but I will not blame if you give up before you get halfway through.
https://www.greenparty.ie/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/GREEN_PARTY_TOWARDS_2030-WEB-VERSION.pdf
What the Green's are proposing to do in ten years is simply not achievable by any country even those with bigger economies than Ireland.
I think we would all agree that their 66 page wish list would be great if it could be implemented. But it cant, we have a housing crisis, a health crisis, an education crisis and now the Green's want us to spend BILLIONS every year on top of that. Its simply not realistic. Even if we did not have those other issues it would still be beyond what the country could afford over a ten year period.
Dont forget because of the austerity repayments Ireland's capital expenditure ability is somewhat limited.
What is realistic is to cherry pick the projects that are desperately needed at the moment, and build them in as green a way as possible.
Build the M20, but build in capabilities or features that would fit in with the eventual aims of the Green party such as a priority lane for public transport during rush hour periods, make it compulsory for fast charging points to be installed at any services that might be built along the M20.
Then encourage private bus companies to use it to provide new routes. It would be cheaper for the government to incentivise a scheme like that than attempt to build a whole new public infrastructure in a rural area that currently has no public transport whatsoever.0
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