How do FG/FF stop SF at the next election?

Fred Cryton · 26-02-2020 7:47pm #1

What must they do over the next 5 years when they (inevitably) go into a Grand Coalition to ensure SF has peaked at 24%?

My opinion:

1) Tax cuts - Make people feel substantially better off. Compromise between the €3,000 a year on offer from FG and the €1,300 on offer from FF. Let's go with €2,000 a year. If after 5 years every higher rate taxpayer was €2k per year better off (or €4k per household), that would be a serious improvement in disposable income.

2) Affordable housing - ramp up substantially. This will be the easiest to agree in principal but the problem is how to do this.

3) Continue to paint SF as the danger they are. The SF connections with the Provos & vigilantes must be restated over and over again. I know plenty of millennials who are ignorant of SF and what they are. They don't understand the connection between SF and Garda killings. We need a public education program on the topic now that the troubles are no longer dominating the news.

If they stick to the above they have a chance. I don't think anything else will really make an impact on voters. No-one can fix the health system, unless we get rid of public sector unions. Carbon tax will only have a negative effect on their vote.

uck51js9zml2yt · 26-02-2020 7:50pm

They fix the problems. This is their last chance to disarm SF...pun intended:)

James Brown · 26-02-2020 7:51pm

All any party in government need do to stay in, a good job.
Put the country ahead of self interest and cronyism and sweet deals. Look after the majority, the low to middle income tax payer. Put social concerns ahead of private profit.
In short, rebuild FF/FG.

1) Tax: Quality and value for money. I'll merrily pay taxes for quality and value.

2) Affordable housing and build social housing. Police it well, take rent from source.

3) Put the country ahead of pathetic slurs. Be gracious in defeat. Over haul the HSE. Admitting defeat before you start, 'it can't be fixed', if that's the attitude you've no business in government.

noodler · 26-02-2020 7:51pm

We've been cutting income tax and PRSI for 4/5 last budgets and there was very little political reward for it.

Fann Linn · 26-02-2020 7:53pm

Amazing that it may take SF knocking on the door of Govt for FF/FG to act responsibly.

Bobtheman · 26-02-2020 7:54pm

Fred Cryton wrote: »

What must they do over the next 5 years when they (inevitably) go into a Grand Coalition to ensure SF has peaked at 24%?

My opinion:

1) Tax cuts - Make people feel substantially better off. Compromise between the €3,000 a year on offer from FG and the €1,300 on offer from FF. Let's go with €2,000 a year. If after 5 years every higher rate taxpayer was €2k per year better off (or €4k per household), that would be a serious improvement in disposable income.

2) Affordable housing - ramp up substantially. This will be the easiest to agree in principal but the problem is how to do this.

3) Continue to paint SF as the danger they are. The SF connections with the Provos & vigilantes must be restated over and over again. I know plenty of millennials who are ignorant of SF and what they are. They don't understand the connection between SF and Garda killings. We need a public education program on the topic now that the troubles are no longer dominating the news.

If they stick to the above they have a chance. I don't think anything else will really make an impact on voters. No-one can fix the health system, unless we get rid of public sector unions. Carbon tax will only have a negative effect on their vote.

Too basic. According to EU rules we can only spend surpluses. We need agreement from the EU to breach that
Health needs major investment too.
The best way to defeat SF is to bring them in and face reality of government

Shefwedfan · 26-02-2020 7:54pm

They can do nothing really

SF won’t go into government this time because they know they will make a balls of it

So they are hanging back to throw s**t for the next few years.....

No matter what a government does it won’t suit the needs of some so they will go against them. So I say crack on, some people will see what FF/FG will do

The rest which chip on shoulder and it’s everyone else’s fault will go with SF next election no matter if the SF politicians voted in now do f**k all for next 5 years....that’s the way it is

James Brown · 26-02-2020 7:57pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

They can do nothing really

SF won’t go into government this time because they know they will make a balls of it

So they are hanging back to throw s**t for the next few years.....

No matter what a government does it won’t suit the needs of some so they will go against them. So I say crack on, some people will see what FF/FG will do

The rest which chip on shoulder and it’s everyone else’s fault will go with SF next election no matter if the SF politicians voted in now do f**k all for next 5 years....that’s the way it is

You realise these are not mutually exclusive? Maybe FG could dial down the arrogance?

Kivaro · 26-02-2020 8:10pm

They either need to give up or merge.
The silent majority in this country are looking for a party who will focus on low-to-middle income workers and contributors.

The reason why FFG did so badly in the last election was that they concentrated on an already heavily serviced left-of-centre area in Irish politics. All that the majority of us heard was FFG's solutions on social housing and the 10,000 "homeless".

They forgot or didn't care about the silent majority, who bit them in the arse as a result.

James Brown · 26-02-2020 8:15pm

Kivaro wrote: »

They either need to give up or merge.
The silent majority in this country are looking for a party who will focus on low-to-middle income workers and contributors.

The reason why FFG did so badly in the last election was that they concentrated on an already heavily serviced left-of-centre area in Irish politics. All that the majority of us heard was FFG's solutions on social housing and the 10,000 "homeless".

They forgot or didn't care about the silent majority, who bit them in the arse as a result.

That's the thing. Any decent party, or even clever chancers, (too late for you FF) could slide in there now. The election results show nobody is a shoe-in and the public are not won over by any particular crowd.

_Brian · 26-02-2020 8:16pm

I don’t think they can do anything.

Society beleives what it reads on social media and they have been told everyone is entitled to free water, free healthcare and free housing and SF say they can do all that.

SF coming into government is an inevitability, because enough people want free stuff and forever homes close to mama in the leafy suburbs of Dublin where they grew up.

Nobody seems to care about the glaring gap in the SF financials, and their answer is raising all this money from “general taxation” is worrying if your a worker. They will either tax your job out of existence or tax your wages out of existence, or both.

James Brown · 26-02-2020 8:22pm

_Brian wrote: »

I don’t think they can do anything.

Society beleives what it reads on social media and they have been told everyone is entitled to free water, free healthcare and free housing and SF say they can do all that.

SF coming into government is an inevitability, because enough people want free stuff and forever homes close to mama in the leafy suburbs of Dublin where they grew up.

Nobody seems to care about the glaring gap in the SF financials, and their answer is raising all this money from “general taxation” is worrying if your a worker. They will either tax your job out of existence or tax your wages out of existence, or both.

Nobody is offering 'free houses' but if you want to take that route, why would the likes of Margret Cash and that want a change from the government looks after them already in that regard?

Darc19 · 26-02-2020 8:23pm

Fred Cryton wrote: »

3) Continue to paint SF as the danger they are. The SF connections with the Provos & vigilantes must be restated over and over again. I know plenty of millennials who are ignorant of SF and what they are. They don't understand the connection between SF and Garda killings. We need a public education program on the topic now that the troubles are no longer dominating the news. .

I'm sorry, but this is the main reason they are riding high.

Even I who had a friend's family business blown up by the IRA in the 80's have moved on.

They'll never get my vote as I don't agree with their politics, but the vast majority of their members have little connection with the IRA and violence.

Some of their Td's are very well educated middle class people and their intensions are good.

Yes they have a few dodgy types and probably a few more than other parties, but they are a small minority.

The fixation of the media and FF and FG is giving SF a huge amount of publicity and they are "fashionable".

This is leading to more middle ground people joining them and giving them momentum.

FF and FG and the media are better off commenting far less and show comparisons from NI and other countries where similar policies simply have not worked.

But forget the IRA past. Most people are rather tired of it.

After all, their socialism only works until the money runs out.

James Brown · 26-02-2020 8:26pm

Maybe FF and FG would be better off concentrating on policies and the management of the country?
I've not heard FF or FG talk about anything affecting the public since the election. People rightly notice such things.

Spanish Eyes · 26-02-2020 8:33pm

The only way is to let SF have a go. I would love that to happen.

But they can't and are very relieved too I'd say. Will not have to prove their policies.

These rallies are for the supporters to make up the numbers for the media. Make no mistake. Rent a Crowd again.

tayto lover · 26-02-2020 8:40pm

noodler wrote: »

We've been cutting income tax and PRSI for 4/5 last budgets and there was very little political reward for it.

Honestly I didn’t notice. Maybe they forgot about me.

BarryD2 · 26-02-2020 8:40pm

I don't think any sane citizen really regards SF as government material. They got a lot of protest and floating vote this time. But if there were another election in a couple of months, many of those voters would take a long hard cold look at what is best in their own self interest.

Fann Linn · 26-02-2020 8:43pm

BarryD2 wrote: »

I don't think any sane citizen really regards SF as government material. They got a lot of protest and floating vote this time. But if there were another election in a couple of months, many of those voters would take a long hard cold look at what is best in their own self interest.

According to that journalist Leahy this morning, a lot of TDs actually believe SF could increase their vote if there was another election.

who what when · 26-02-2020 8:51pm

Rogelio Sweet Rink wrote: »

They fix the problems. This is their last chance to disarm SF...pun intended:)

To be fair though this isn't true.

Fianna Gael took over when Ireland had an unemployment rate of 15.4%, we had surrendered our economic sovereignty to the Troica and people were emigrating in droves. It was a very bleak time.

More recently the government has had to deal with Brexit.

By any standard Fianna Gael have dealt with these issues quiet competently.

In 2010 if you put it to the Irish population that we would be where we are in 2020, even given our current problems, you would have been met with universal approval.

And for the record I didn't vote FG!

jd1983 · 26-02-2020 8:53pm

Fred Cryton wrote: »

3) Continue to paint SF as the danger they are. The SF connections with the Provos & vigilantes must be restated over and over again. I know plenty of millennials who are ignorant of SF and what they are. They don't understand the connection between SF and Garda killings. We need a public education program on the topic now that the troubles are no longer dominating the news.

Lol, is this a piss take?
Perhaps the next government could change the constitution to forbid millennials from voting unless they pass an exam based on this public education program. You'd expect that a referendum would be needed but fascists are good at bypassing such nuisance technicalities.
Maybe it's worth forcing all millennials to wear armbands so they can be easily identified. Perhaps anyone attending a sf public meeting, sorry rally should also be forced to wear such armbands. The armband could include a silhouette of a man wearing a balaclava.

Shefwedfan · 26-02-2020 8:54pm

Fann Linn wrote: »

According to that journalist Leahy this morning, a lot of TDs actually believe SF could increase their vote if there was another election.

I doubt it, most people are started to see the "politicians" they voted in.....charity robbing scum etc

dxhound2005 · 26-02-2020 8:57pm

This would be a good time to move the water from the Shannon to Dublin. Everyone should be happy with that.

Fann Linn · 26-02-2020 9:00pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I doubt it, most people are started to see the "politicians" they voted in.....charity robbing scum etc

Maria Bailey, Dara Murphy trumps yer wan in Clare hands down.

Just passing on the impartial views from a journalist.

growleaves · 26-02-2020 9:10pm

3) Continue to paint SF as the danger they are. The SF connections with the Provos & vigilantes must be restated over and over again. I know plenty of millennials who are ignorant of SF and what they are. They don't understand the connection between SF and Garda killings. We need a public education program on the topic now that the troubles are no longer dominating the news.

I think this is the weakest link in an election strategy.

The reason I think its weak is because one minute you're talking about economic and social issues and the next you have this orthogonal segue into appeals to the superego. But that is a weird way for politics to work. The media (moreso than FF or FG) tried this in the election just past with last-minute front-page headlines and it flopped. If FG are the only people who can save the economy then that should be the front-page headline the day before an election.

It goes both ways:

Pinochet was a supporter of free markets who ordered the torture and murder of political opponents. No prominent economic liberals at the time thought that Pinochet should be kept from the levers of power because of it. If he had then Chilean socialists would have ruled by default and that was considered sub-par.

SF's existence as a party was legitimised by the Belfast Agreement - in fact, Adams and McGuinness got such good terms they ended up looking like winners. The eve of an election isn't a great time to say that they shouldn't exist as a party. They do exist as a party, and they're either competent, efficient administrators or they aren't.

I'm not saying that Irish people are amoral, or that atrocities should be forgotten, I'm saying that 'Those people are ex-terrorists' isn't a normal campaign issue.

There are new books and documentaries about IRA atrocities every few years. The knowledge of what the IRA did is already there in the background of Irish consciousness even if every person isn't totally informed of each detail. More 'education' (i.e. more information saturation, and more socialisation of pacifist atitudes) isn't going to change things and couldn't be organised in time for an election anyway.

satguy · 26-02-2020 9:12pm

I think FF and FG are done for,, both have done such a poor job, and now seem to have used up all their brownie points.
They are so bad at their job, that people will vote for a party with IRA history, rather then let any of them have power ever again.

The guy that ownes FG is pushing them to a coalition government with FF against their will. The very last thing he would want, is for the country to see a SF and FF coalition government that works.

If we see a SF and FF coalition that works, then FG might never / ever see power again.
FG would be consigned to history just like the PD's ..

McMurphy · 26-02-2020 9:13pm

satguy wrote: »

I think FF and FG are done for,, both have done such a poor job, and now seem to have used up all their brownie points.
They are so bad at their job, that people will vote for a party with IRA history, rather then let any of them have power ever again.

The guy that ownes FG is pushing them to a coalition government with FF against their will. The very last thing he would want, is for the country to see a SF and FF coalition government that works.

If we see a SF and FF coalition that works, then FG might never / ever see power again.
FG would be consigned to history just like the PD's ..

Go on........

Who owns them?:D

James Brown · 26-02-2020 9:15pm

who what when wrote: »

To be fair though this isn't true.

Fianna Gael took over when Ireland had an unemployment rate of 15.4%, we had surrendered our economic sovereignty to the Troica and people were emigrating in droves. It was a very bleak time.

More recently the government has had to deal with Brexit.

By any standard Fianna Gael have dealt with these issues quiet competently.

In 2010 if you put it to the Irish population that we would be where we are in 2020, even given our current problems, you would have been met with universal approval.

And for the record I didn't vote FG!

The majority are floaters and are looking to themselves. The idea everyone feels some form of stability and prosperity yet voted like they did anyway is what makes no sense IMO.

If FG did what they promised in 2011, we'd have kenny romping home with a clear win in the 2020 election.
And for the record I use to vote FG.

ThunbergsAreGo · 26-02-2020 9:16pm

They let them in.

Very easy to throw stones and the Irish electorate, driven by the media, love a bit of misery - regardless of who is in power

James Brown · 26-02-2020 9:17pm

McMurphy wrote: »

Go on........

Who owns them?:D

Sweeten the deal and he might spill

Pintman Paddy Losty · 26-02-2020 9:24pm

I think Fg should declassify some of the Garda files on SinnFein/IRA once they're back in power. They should also cooperate with crown security services and ask them to release their files on SF/IRA as well. They should also have the gardai investigate historical crimes linked to SF TDs and lock them up.

26-02-2020 9:26pm

who what when wrote: »

To be fair though this isn't true.

Fianna Gael took over when Ireland had an unemployment rate of 15.4%, we had surrendered our economic sovereignty to the Troica and people were emigrating in droves. It was a very bleak time.

More recently the government has had to deal with Brexit.

By any standard Fianna Gael have dealt with these issues quiet competently.

In 2010 if you put it to the Irish population that we would be where we are in 2020, even given our current problems, you would have been met with universal approval.

And for the record I didn't vote FG!

Pretty much.

FG ran a terrible, terrible campaign but what they managed for the economy was astounding.

Shefwedfan · 26-02-2020 9:30pm

Fann Linn wrote: »

Maria Bailey, Dara Murphy trumps yer wan in Clare hands down.

Just passing on the impartial views from a journalist.

Really???

Maria Bailey was amess. But she never actually got money and cancelled the case

Yer wan in Clare robbed a charity for years, was brought to court and still never paid. To this day hasnt paid a penny and probably wont

Not even close

satguy · 26-02-2020 9:35pm

McMurphy wrote: »

Go on........

Who owns them?:D

Come on,,, How many phone licences and Tax write downs does one man have to get,,, before you realize who the real Boss is ??

McMurphy · 26-02-2020 9:48pm

satguy wrote: »

Come on,,, How many phone licences and Tax write downs does one man have to get,,, before you realize who the real Boss is ??

Is he in this photograph I wonder ?

Enda%20obrien

satguy · 26-02-2020 9:54pm

Yes

Idbatterim · 26-02-2020 10:05pm

Build the major infrastructure needed. M20 and Dublin metro have to start ASAP. Daft underground too. Cut income taxes. Nothing will be done with health , they’ll just continue to feed the black hole furnace. Housing obviously. What I don’t want to see , any welfare increases, cuts to the pathetic prescription charges etc. it’s decision time. Get those back inside who ffg lost or at least in fg case , continue r reward those that don’t even vote , never mind voting fg!

Idbatterim · 26-02-2020 10:06pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Pretty much.

FG ran a terrible, terrible campaign but what they managed for the economy was astounding.

Lol! You mean they just didn’t don anything insanely moronic? That is quite the achievement for fg admittedly

Idbatterim · 26-02-2020 10:07pm

who what when wrote: »

To be fair though this isn't true.

Fianna Gael took over when Ireland had an unemployment rate of 15.4%, we had surrendered our economic sovereignty to the Troica and people were emigrating in droves. It was a very bleak time.

More recently the government has had to deal with Brexit.

By any standard Fianna Gael have dealt with these issues quiet competently.

In 2010 if you put it to the Irish population that we would be where we are in 2020, even given our current problems, you would have been met with universal approval.

And for the record I didn't vote FG!

Are you looking to rent or buy in Dublin ? Didn’t think so.

all about the mane · 26-02-2020 10:17pm

Fred Cryton wrote: »

What must they do over the next 5 years when they (inevitably) go into a Grand Coalition to ensure SF has peaked at 24%?

My opinion:

1) Tax cuts - Make people feel substantially better off. Compromise between the €3,000 a year on offer from FG and the €1,300 on offer from FF. Let's go with €2,000 a year. If after 5 years every higher rate taxpayer was €2k per year better off (or €4k per household), that would be a serious improvement in disposable income.

2) Affordable housing - ramp up substantially. This will be the easiest to agree in principal but the problem is how to do this.

3) Continue to paint SF as the danger they are. The SF connections with the Provos & vigilantes must be restated over and over again. I know plenty of millennials who are ignorant of SF and what they are. They don't understand the connection between SF and Garda killings. We need a public education program on the topic now that the troubles are no longer dominating the news.

If they stick to the above they have a chance. I don't think anything else will really make an impact on voters. No-one can fix the health system, unless we get rid of public sector unions. Carbon tax will only have a negative effect on their vote.

Let them in this time. That would definitely sink them

uck51js9zml2yt · 26-02-2020 10:27pm

who what when wrote: »

To be fair though this isn't true.

Fianna Gael took over when Ireland had an unemployment rate of 15.4%, we had surrendered our economic sovereignty to the Troica and people were emigrating in droves. It was a very bleak time.

More recently the government has had to deal with Brexit.

By any standard Fianna Gael have dealt with these issues quiet competently.

In 2010 if you put it to the Irish population that we would be where we are in 2020, even given our current problems, you would have been met with universal approval.

And for the record I didn't vote FG!

Didn't vote FG either nor FF,SF or Greens....not much left I know.

But unless they can get s grip of the social issues SF will just garner more support and we'll have men in balaclavas running the show.

LeinsterDub · 26-02-2020 10:34pm

Keep their tax cuts and lower the cost of living by fixing housing, health and transportation.

noodler · 26-02-2020 10:38pm

tayto lover wrote: »

Honestly I didn’t notice. Maybe they forgot about me.

People are ignorant. What else can be said.

Check a tax calculator in 2015 versus one in 2020.

The rate of income tax has gone down, bands at which higher rate kicks in have increased a few times, threshold at which USC kicks in has increased.

Cost well over billion ut no credit for it.

People don't notice. Put the money into health and Housing instead.

satguy · 26-02-2020 10:38pm

Some parties have a fair few atrocities in their past, the moriarty tribunal tried to right one of the big ones, but the poor guy had his wings clipped.

I think he was forced to retire soon after..

tayto lover · 26-02-2020 10:50pm

noodler wrote: »

People are ignorant. What else can be said.

Check a tax calculator in 2015 versus one in 2020.

The rate of income tax has gone down, bands at which higher rate kicks in have increased a few times, threshold at which USC kicks in has increased.

Cost well over billion ut no credit for it.

People don't notice. Put the money into health and Housing instead.

Oddly enough I’m about a fiver up. Hardly noticeable after so many tax decreases.

noodler · 26-02-2020 11:00pm

tayto lover wrote: »

Oddly enough I’m about a fiver up. Hardly noticeable after so many tax decreases.

What's your income.

Someone on 40k is earning over a grand more purely cos of tax and USC changes.

With almost 2m workers you can see how such a thing is incredibly expensive.

A cost of 2bn if that 1,000 had applied to all those workers and you don't even notice it (obviously the 2bn is an exaggeration for the sake of simple maths for the moment since not everyone earns 40k and the different tax packages affected different brackets differently)

It's clear the amounts required for people to "notice" or even acknowledge it are unaffordable for the state in a housing or health crisis.

26-02-2020 11:12pm

noodler wrote: »

What's your income.

Someone on 40k is earning over a grand more purely cos of tax and USC changes.

With almost 2m workers you can see how such a thing is incredibly expensive.

A cost of 2bn if that 1,000 had applied to all those workers and you don't even notice it.

It's clear the amounts required for people to "notice" or even acknowledge it are unaffordable for the state in a housing or health crisis.

I was wondering about this today.

The irresponsible thing to do would be to lean on the Central Bank to scrap the deposit rules. Would bring back the 110% mortgages, would lead to inflation of house prices, but it would also give house buyers a greater sense of control over what they were doing. Sure, it would free people up to make bad decisions but are we in a case of choosing least bad options at the minute?

I'd also point out FG massively increased health support for kids (extended free GP care etc), absolutely no one gave a ****, and some people blamed them for making GP's too busy. Can't win.

Idbatterim · 26-02-2020 11:23pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I was wondering about this today.

The irresponsible thing to do would be to lean on the Central Bank to scrap the deposit rules. Would bring back the 110% mortgages, would lead to inflation of house prices, but it would also give house buyers a greater sense of control over what they were doing. Sure, it would free people up to make bad decisions but are we in a case of choosing least bad options at the minute?

I'd also point out FG massively increased health support for kids (extended free GP care etc), absolutely no one gave a ****, and some people blamed them for making GP's too busy. Can't win.

Yeah. There is nowhere near enough to go around to keep everyone happy. To hell with the increased welfare and other bull****, increased health support for kids etc. free go visits for loads of people and sixty euro for many of the working poor , paying for others free healthcare. This country is a banana republic

maccored · 26-02-2020 11:40pm

i think the only way to stop SF is for FG/FF to keep doing what they are doing by educating us all on the SF/IRA cult . Sure the young ones dont know. FF/FG need to keep doing that as much as possible. Then no-one will ever ever vote SF. Thats what I think they should do. Actually, ban them. feck them anyway ... if they disagree, ban them

Itssoeasy · 26-02-2020 11:50pm

maccored wrote: »

i think the only way to stop SF is for FG/FF to keep doing what they are doing by educating us all on the SF/IRA cult . Sure the young ones dont know. FF/FG need to keep doing that as much as possible. Then no-one will ever ever vote SF. Thats what I think they should do. Actually, ban them. feck them anyway ... if they disagree, ban them

That's obviously a bad idea and I wouldnt be SFs biggest fan because I don't thing their policies add up to scrutiny. I may be wrong but they should go into government even if a minority one because until that happens then it's just a manifesto and ideas of how to fix things. Well let them try to fix things then.

maccored · 26-02-2020 11:52pm

Itssoeasy wrote: »

That's obviously a bad idea and I wouldnt be SFs biggest fan because I don't thing their policies add up to scrutiny. I may be wrong but they should go into government even if a minority one because until that happens then it's just a manifesto and ideas of how to fix things. Well let them try to fix things then.

i was being terribly sarcastic. Someone told me yesterday that FG had fixed the housing problem - its just we wont see the results for a year or two. God I larfed at that.

Itssoeasy · 26-02-2020 11:54pm

satguy wrote: »

Some parties have a fair few atrocities in their past, the moriarty tribunal tried to right one of the big ones, but the poor guy had his wings clipped.

I think he was forced to retire soon after..

The issues from the moriarty tribunal would be classed as a scandal not atrocities.

How do FG/FF stop SF at the next election?

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