Electric Vehicles / Classics

unkel · 23-02-2020 10:32pm #1

w124man wrote: »

Both are effectively new cars, both easily capable of twenty years motoring. I suppose if you're used to Fiat 127's and rusty Sierras well then you wont get just how good these cars actually are.

That's a strange argument. If you want a car (as good as) new that's good for 20 years motoring, it's far cheaper total cost of ownership to buy a new EV than that old (new) taxi.

w124man · 23-02-2020 11:09pm

unkel wrote: »

That's a strange argument. If you want a car (as good as) new that's good for 20 years motoring, it's far cheaper total cost of ownership to buy a new EV than that old (new) taxi.

That's an even stranger argument. EV's are just a carbon footprint heavy, politically driven, unsustainable fad that will U turn just like the diesel one did!

elperello · 23-02-2020 11:13pm

I think I just clicked into a parallel universe.
EVs in Classic Cars ?

unkel · 23-02-2020 11:18pm

w124man wrote: »

EV's are just a unsustainable fad

Anyone looking at your post 10-20 years from now will wonder what kind of dinosaur posted that

galwaytt · 24-02-2020 1:15am

unkel wrote: »

Anyone looking at your post 10-20 years from now will wonder what kind of dinosaur posted that

kinda. EV will still be there but...it'll be interesting to see if any current EV's ever live to be 20 yrs old in the first place. .....

kev1.3s · 24-02-2020 8:13am

galwaytt wrote: »

kinda. EV will still be there but...it'll be interesting to see if any current EV's ever live to be 20 yrs old in the first place. .....

They will. They will build up a cottage industry that converts them to petrol.

Seweryn · 24-02-2020 9:49am

w124man wrote: »

That's an even stranger argument. EV's are just a carbon footprint heavy, politically driven, unsustainable fad that will U turn just like the diesel one did!

They did their U turn 100 years ago, but people believe this is a new technology. It didn't work then, it was replaced with internal combustion engine, because of the inconvenience of battery power, energy storage and that sort of things.

kadman · 24-02-2020 11:35am

Seweryn wrote: »

They did their U turn 100 years ago, but people believe this is a new technology. It didn't work then, it was replaced with internal combustion engine, because of the inconvenience of battery power, energy storage and that sort of things.

Plus the fact its doubtful , according to some experts , that they have sufficient resources to maintain ev's on a global scale as required.

Seweryn · 24-02-2020 11:56am

kadman wrote: »

Plus the fact its doubtful , according to some experts , that they have sufficient resources to maintain ev's on a global scale as required.

Not a hope. It is a cul de sac lane and not a very long one. With all known resources we can only replace a fraction of vehicles with EVs. Never mind maintaining them after...

54and56 · 24-02-2020 4:00pm

Seweryn wrote: »

Not a hope. It is a cul de sac lane and not a very long one. With all known resources we can only replace a fraction of vehicles with EVs. Never mind maintaining them after...

What does that mean?

Dades · 24-02-2020 5:20pm

Given battery tech isn't going to remain static it's impossible to say definitively that we'll run out of resources to make them. Just maybe in their current form (no pun intended).

Kenny Logins · 24-02-2020 6:47pm

54and56 wrote: »

What does that mean?

Lithium.

unkel · 24-02-2020 6:53pm

What did I start? :eek: I shouldn't have mentioned the E word

Kenny Logins wrote: »

Lithium.

Lithium is one of the most common elements on earth, in the top 20 or so

Seweryn · 24-02-2020 7:18pm

unkel wrote: »

What did I start? :eek: I shouldn't have mentioned the E word

Lithium is one of the most common elements on earth, in the top 20 or so

Yes, but still not enough to make batteries for all vehicles. Even if there was, there are not enough fossil fuels or other sources of energy to power the grid to charge the batteries.

Kenny Logins · 24-02-2020 8:53pm

unkel wrote: »

Lithium is one of the most common elements on earth, in the top 20 or so

Maybe so, but is there enough?

...and when will we be told to shift focus from EV to CNG?

Seweryn · 24-02-2020 9:08pm

Kenny Logins wrote: »

Maybe so, but is there enough?

...and when will we be told to shift focus from EV to CNG?

Or... petrol

.

Actually... CNG as fuel is probably the most "eco-friendly" option all things considered

.

kadman · 24-02-2020 10:25pm

Might be lots of Lithium, but not so with rare earth metals,
and EV's need them. And China has 95% of the world supply, which they intend to keep,

https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/availability_of_lithium

Rather than worrying about a lack of lithium, there could be shortages of rare earth materials, should the EV replace the conventional car. One such material is the permanent magnet for the electric motors. Permanent magnets make one of the most energy-efficient motors. China controls about 95 percent of the global market for rare earth metals and expects to use most of these resources for its own production. Export of rare earth materials is tightly controlled.

marcos_94 · 24-02-2020 11:52pm

Seweryn wrote: »

Yes, but still not enough to make batteries for all vehicles. Even if there was, there are not enough fossil fuels or other sources of energy to power the grid to charge the batteries.

Cheap renewable generation is available. It’s now cheaper to build new wind and solar generation than to continue operating col and gas plants:
https://www.lazard.com/media/451086/lazards-levelized-cost-of-energy-version-130-vf.pdf

Also, an electric car consumes about 25% of the gross energy required for an average ICE vehicle.

I’m a car guy, and have no intention of buying an EV anytime soon, but the amount of misinformation on EVs is ridiculous

Seweryn · 25-02-2020 10:16am

marcos_94 wrote: »

Cheap renewable generation is available. It’s now cheaper to build new wind and solar generation than to continue operating col and gas plants:

Cheaper, is it? So why one of the most advanced nation on Earth (Japan) is now building 20 new coal fired power plants? Why they are not building so called renewable, cheaper power plants?
And why as we speak there are 1,500 new coal power stations are constructed around the world? And why Germany don't build more wind turbines but instead they have knocked down an old church to open a mine for coal that they found underneath the church...?

I agree, there is a lot of misinformation in the media these days.

marcos_94 · 25-02-2020 10:30am

Seweryn wrote: »

Cheaper, is it? So why one of the most advanced nation on Earth (Japan) is now building 20 new coal fired power plants? Why they are not building so called renewable, cheaper power plants?

Oh, I must be missing something so, decreasing share of fossil fuel in energy mix from 65% to 56% by 2030 and increasing share of renewable energy to 22%-24%. This doesnt take into account the offshore wind industry in Japan.

https://www.eu-japan.eu/news/japans-new-basic-energy-plan-until-2030-approved

And why as we speak there are 1,500 new coal power stations are constructed around the world? And why Germany don't build more wind turbines but instead they have knocked down an old church to open a mine for coal that they found underneath the church...?

Good to see you brought up Germany, a country whos EnergieWende plan has stumbled the last couple of years but has not slowed down the integration of renewable energy. It was Germany that started off the subsidising of rooftop solar and brought the costs down for others to begin adopting the technology.

They have a strange plan on retiring their Nuclear fleet before their coal fleet, but regardless, both will be gone by mid 2030s supposedly. This wont stop their adoption of wind energy though. germany has set out in its National Energy and Climate plan that it will increase its onshore wind capacity by 20%, and increase its offshore wind capacity by just shy of 400%.

https://windeurope.org/2030plans/

Apologies for going off the topic of classic cars for sale in Ireland.

26000 Elephants · 25-02-2020 3:13pm

elperello wrote: »

I think I just clicked into a parallel universe.
EVs in Classic Cars ?

It's a growing sector: retrofitting present day EV technology in old classics - especially old city cars.

Purists will probably clutch their pearls in horror, but if it keeps an old car relevant and useful, I say go for it.

elperello · 25-02-2020 11:56pm

26000 Elephants wrote: »

It's a growing sector: retrofitting present day EV technology in old classics - especially old city cars.

Purists will probably clutch their pearls in horror, but if it keeps an old car relevant and useful, I say go for it.

Forgot about them

Definite exception for this one

https://www.rte.ie/lifestyle/motors/2018/0905/991852-class-jaguar-e-type-to-go-electric/

kadman · 26-02-2020 12:31pm

Classic beetle EV kit costs over 16,000 euros.
I think I will stick with the old ICE for the moment

marcos_94 · 26-02-2020 12:35pm

kadman wrote: »

Classic beetle EV kit costs over 16,000 euros.
I think I will stick with the old ICE for the moment

Where did you see that? Havent seen kits that cheap yet!

Seweryn · 26-02-2020 1:32pm

marcos_94 wrote: »

Where did you see that? Havent seen kits that cheap yet!

Here is an example for the Volkswagen. I believe that price is a subject to duties, VAT, etc.
Then you need a solid car as a base obviously

and... labour to screw it all together.

https://www.evwest.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=40&products_id=168&osCsid=sl2cthcdsghsmcoohp3edpnqc7

marcos_94 · 26-02-2020 1:58pm

Seweryn wrote: »

Here is an example for the Volkswagen. I believe that price is a subject to duties, VAT, etc.
Then you need a solid car as a base obviously and... labour to screw it all together.

https://www.evwest.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=40&products_id=168&osCsid=sl2cthcdsghsmcoohp3edpnqc7

Thats not a bad kit. 26.5kWh isnt a massive battery but for a (light) classic car it should deliver 150km of summer driving range. I wonder if that kit is adaptable for other makes

Seweryn · 26-02-2020 2:45pm

marcos_94 wrote: »

Thats not a bad kit. 26.5kWh isnt a massive battery but for a (light) classic car it should deliver 150km of summer driving range. I wonder if that kit is adaptable for other makes

Well, for sure it is, but the kit includes the adapter plate for the transmission, so you would have to custom make one for your car. Secondly, that company makes them for a few other cars. For other cars I would probably go and buy all bits separately.
This is not a cheap solution and you will never get your money back, but can be a good fun.
There is a few companies in Europe that do conversions, but they are more popular in the US.

On the other hand, you can convert a car to EV at a very low budget as well. The only high cost items are the batteries.

kadman · 26-02-2020 5:59pm

All of the joy in a beetle classic.....is the sound of the engine. Why would i swap that for ..........
silence.:D

Seweryn · 26-02-2020 7:30pm

kadman wrote: »

All of the joy in a beetle classic.....is the sound of the engine. Why would i swap that for ..........
silence.:D

Well, there you go...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oM4CRBmYKBs

elperello · 26-02-2020 11:29pm

If (I know it's a big if) the Government succeeds in getting rid of all new ICE cars won't the classics with an ICE be much more desirable.

The only legitimate way for enthusiasts to enjoy that engine sound be it VW or 6 cylinder BMW will be to buy a classic.

Assuming of course that the powers that will be don't put all the classics in museums.

kadman · 27-02-2020 4:27pm

kadman · 27-02-2020 4:30pm

This sounds , and runs better,

You couldn't pull start an EV beetle:P

kadman · 27-02-2020 4:45pm

mustang68 · 27-02-2020 5:49pm

https://www.evbmw.com/

This guy does EV conversions in Ireland, as far as I can see he is one of the most knowledgeable out there, check out his videos. (I've no association with him).

If a car is getting on in age and the raison d'etre of the car isn't the engine then an EV conversion would be a fun project.

marcos_94 · 27-02-2020 6:10pm

mustang68 wrote: »

https://www.evbmw.com/

This guy does EV conversions in Ireland, as far as I can see he is one of the most knowledgeable out there, check out his videos. (I've no association with him).

If a car is getting on in age and the raison d'etre of the car isn't the engine then an EV conversion would be a fun project.

I remember following his build thread for the 8 series back on one of the BMW forums. Didnt realise he had done so many conversions nad has a youtube channel

unkel · 27-02-2020 6:20pm

Ah well seeing my post has involuntarily been promoted to a new thread, we might as well make the most of it

Converting classics to EV is big business in the USA already, mainly California naturally. The guys at EV West are kings:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLRAQu0b8-o

Have a crowd like that professionally convert your EV using Tesla motors and batteries is going to cost you a fortune though.

kadman · 27-02-2020 9:49pm

Even a basic kit for the beetle will set you back 16k+euros.

Then you have to make some modifications for the kit into the car
maybe.

Then find someone savvy enough with ev to fit it. Lots of money for a vehicle that
gets occasional use.

unkel · 28-02-2020 2:14am

All true kadman, but that's the one end of the conversion spectrum. High price parts and high price labour. The other end is DIY which is far from impossible. Damien Maguire (Irish) bought a knackered 3-series diesel and converted it to EV and got it through the NCT for a grand all in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkg8Rk-aP4U

Let's hope it won't happen, but should the M96 engine in my Porsche die because of the IMS bearing issue, I will most likely explore ways to electrify it.

marcos_94 · 28-02-2020 9:58am

unkel wrote: »

All true kadman, but that's the one end of the conversion spectrum. High price parts and high price labour. The other end is DIY which is far from impossible. Damien Maguire (Irish) bought a knackered 3-series diesel and converted it to EV and got it through the NCT for a grand all in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkg8Rk-aP4U

Let's hope it won't happen, but should the M96 engine in my Porsche die because of the IMS bearing issue, I will most likely explore ways to electrify it.

Does this lad Damien build these cars himself and them sell them on, or do people come to him looking for a conversion?

kadman · 28-02-2020 10:16am

But Damien has years of ev knowledge of electrics, that most dont have.

Fair play to him its a great project, and the mechanical elements are handy enough.

But amps,controllers,pcb's..............jaysus me head already hurts, its like reverse engineering

a ufo.:eek:

unkel · 28-02-2020 10:59am

marcos_94 wrote: »

Does this lad Damien build these cars himself and them sell them on, or do people come to him looking for a conversion?

He builds them himself. Not sure if he sells them on. Was going to ask him that question myself until I realised you actually have to pay him to send him an email (and expect an answer), that put me off.

Seweryn · 28-02-2020 11:01am

Well, imagine having to do the opposite conversion. If the electrical vehicles that dominated our roads 100 years ago survived and continued its development and today you had to convert an EV to an internal combustion engine car, that would be a bigger deal.

marcos_94 · 28-02-2020 11:07am

unkel wrote: »

He builds them himself. Not sure if he sells them on. Was going to ask him that question myself until I realised you actually have to pay him to send him an email (and expect an answer), that put me off.

Pay to email him? Sweet jesus. I personally would love to take some BMW e30 316/318 touring and convert it to electric for daily city driving, and keep the interesting stuff for the more interesting drives

Seweryn · 28-02-2020 11:22am

marcos_94 wrote: »

Pay to email him? Sweet jesus. I personally would love to take some BMW e30 316/318 touring and convert it to electric for daily city driving, and keep the interesting stuff for the more interesting drives

If you really want an E30, don't ignore the 320i version. It is a better base for the conversion with similar price tag.

marcos_94 · 28-02-2020 11:28am

Seweryn wrote: »

If you really want an E30, don't ignore the 320i version. It is a better base for the conversion with similar price tag.

Have an e30 318is luckily but wont be converting it as its far too nice! Wouldnt rule out a 320i touring but they rarely seem to come about, although tourings in general dont seem to come up at all anymore

Kenny Logins · 28-02-2020 11:32am

unkel wrote: »

He builds them himself. Not sure if he sells them on. Was going to ask him that question myself until I realised you actually have to pay him to send him an email (and expect an answer), that put me off.

I guess it works then. :pac:

Kenny Logins · 28-02-2020 11:54am

unkel wrote: »

All true kadman, but that's the one end of the conversion spectrum. High price parts and high price labour. The other end is DIY which is far from impossible. Damien Maguire (Irish) bought a knackered 3-series diesel and converted it to EV and got it through the NCT for a grand all in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkg8Rk-aP4U

Let's hope it won't happen, but should the M96 engine in my Porsche die because of the IMS bearing issue, I will most likely explore ways to electrify it.

Just watching these now, very interesting.

Handy tip: :P

w124man · 28-02-2020 9:31pm

unkel wrote: »

Anyone looking at your post 10-20 years from now will wonder what kind of dinosaur posted that

Fortunately for you, opinions cannot be wrong! Worthless but not wrong!

Lovers of EV's are so similar to those in the UK that voted to leave the EU. They were fed so much bull54it that they cant see the wood for the trees!

marcos_94 · 28-02-2020 9:58pm

w124man wrote: »

Fortunately for you, opinions cannot be wrong! Worthless but not wrong!

Lovers of EV's are so similar to those in the UK that voted to leave the EU. They were fed so much bull54it that they cant see the wood for the trees!

What bull is that?

w124man · 29-02-2020 5:31pm

marcos_94 wrote: »

What bull is that?

Emission free, good for the planet, range, recyclable batteries ........

marcos_94 · 29-02-2020 5:57pm

w124man wrote: »

Emission free, good for the planet, range, recyclable batteries ........

I agree that some people believe they do no harm but in a life cycle analysis, they emit less than a petrol or diesel car. They are for sure better for the planet than petrol and diesel cars, and it must be noted that their life emissions can improve as the electricity share from the grid decarbonises.
https://www.transportenvironment.org/press/electric-cars-emit-less-co2-over-their-lifetime-diesels-even-when-powered-dirtiest-electricity

Not sure what your issue with range is? If you believe ranges are exaggerated, is that no different to the lying going on in the car industry as a whole anyways with emissions testing and fuel efficiency testing?

With regards to battery recycling, is there not a growing industry for reuse at the moment, with people like Damien buying batteries for retrofit into other vehicles? Or how about Nissan taking “used” batteries and using them as grid storage?
https://m.futurecar.com/3759/Relectrify-Using-Old-EV-Batteries-to-Power-the-Grid

Electric Vehicles / Classics

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