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General Election and Government Formation Megathread (see post #1)

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    #4892
    mikemac2
    Registered Users Posts: 2,926 ✭✭✭mikemac2


    I heard Joan Burton on Sean O’Rourke and it wasn’t just about the election but also her life and times. Grand, I thought it might be interesting.

    She turned her defeat in Dublin West into an anti-women issue. And it’s not just an issue for Dublin West, she took listeners on a history tour explaining the lack of women in the Dáil, the Seanad and the cabinet. She spent more time on Mary Lou as a women leader then a leader , why does it matter?

    The good people in Dublin West didn’t vote out Burton and Ruth Coppinger on a gender basis, just they were not the best public reps up for election.

    When I contacted my local TDs In Dublin West over an issue everyone replied (well their secretaries mostly) except Burton. Hell even Jack Chambers took the time to telephone me. Joan Burton was invisible since 2016

    But anyway , shame on the Irish electorate for rejecting women candidates :(


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    #4893
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,423 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    marno21 wrote: »
    The N5 Westport-Turlough scheme (which is actually costing €128m to construct - not sure where the Government pulled the 240m figure from - the total project cost will be more than 128m but the rest is sunk costs including land purchase) has been fully assessed and represents value for money. It improves 25km of the national road network, for cars, freight and buses, improves safety and journey times.

    Having an advanced, thriving economy requires a fit for purpose road network. The N5 between Westport and east of Castlebar (which is part of the EU TEN-T comprehensive network I will add) does not constitute fit for purpose.
    Loadsamoney for de roads, but no money for de buses and trains.


    Ever wonder why we have a climate crisis, a traffic crisis, an inequality crisis?


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    #4894
    Snow Garden
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,126 ✭✭✭Snow Garden


    Are any of the parties even talking about ending the awful abuse of politician expenses that we got over the last few years?
    I know they were all at it but FG were especially bad.


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    #4895
    mr_fegelien
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,483 ✭✭✭mr_fegelien


    Can someone explain why a rent freeze is unconstitutional?


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    #4896
    is_that_so
    Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    mr_fegelien wrote: »
    Can someone explain why a rent freeze is unconstitutional?
    It would put the idea of introducing laws for the common good up against personal rights and end up in court anyway.
    https://www.thejournal.ie/readme/rent-freeze-4929058-Dec2019/


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    #4897
    is_that_so
    Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    Snow Garden wrote: »
    Are any of the parties even talking about ending the awful abuse of politician expenses that we got over the last few years?
    I know they were all at it but FG were especially bad.
    It's a full Dail matter to work them out or modify how they work and they all exploit them to the max.


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    #4898
    nigeldaniel
    Registered Users Posts: 1,344 ✭✭✭nigeldaniel


    With things looking as though they will be on the slow boat for a while yet, I see with disdain all SF can do is plan public rallies to harass bully and intimidate the country to its own ends. hardly helping at all.

    Dan.



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    #4899
    boardise
    Registered Users Posts: 3,404 ✭✭✭boardise


    What do people think of the stated Soc Dem position that they will not enter a coalition that includes FF and FG ? It seems to make no sense.
    Roisin Shortall has been on the media almost on a weekly basis for years prating about Health. Now , with an all-party agreement about the Slaintecare policy, she has an opportunity to leverage her appointment as Min for Health so that she can take charge of implementing it.
    The bigger parties would welcome the addition of the S Dems to present a more vivid image of change so they would be in a stronger negotiating position than usual. To not even investigate the possibilities of forming a programme for gov is absurd . The S Dems and Greens would constitute 20 % of gov -which would certainly equal change . The SDs could still walk away if not enough of their red lines were met.
    I can only conclude that Shortall is afraid of the challenge of actually taking on the responsibility of being in government and would prefer to continue offering idealistic platitudes from the safety of opposition.


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    #4900
    WishUWereHere
    Registered Users Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭WishUWereHere


    Snow Garden wrote: »
    Are any of the parties even talking about ending the awful abuse of politician expenses that we got over the last few years?
    I know they were all at it but FG were especially bad.

    EXCELLENT question. BUT if I remember correctly, wasn't it the bould Enda who said he would put a stop to all this travel abuse?


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    #4901
    is_that_so
    Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    boardise wrote: »
    What do people think of the stated Soc Dem position that they will not enter a coalition that includes FF and FG ? It seems to make no sense.
    Roisin Shortall has been on the media almost on a weekly basis for years prating about Health. Now , with an all-party agreement about the Slaintecare policy, she has an opportunity to leverage her appointment as Min for Health so that she can take charge of implementing it.
    The bigger parties would welcome the addition of the S Dems to present a more vivid image of change so they would be in a stronger negotiating position than usual. To not even investigate the possibilities of forming a programme for gov is absurd . The S Dems and Greens would constitute 20 % of gov -which would certainly equal change . The SDs could still walk away if not enough of their red lines were met.
    I can only conclude that Shortall is afraid of the challenge of actually taking on the responsibility of being in government and would prefer to continue offering idealistic platitudes from the safety of opposition.
    I actually think she should be given the MoH job anyway, not because she might be up to it but because it is time to show what she's got.


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    #4902
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    boardise wrote: »
    What do people think of the stated Soc Dem position that they will not enter a coalition that includes FF and FG ? It seems to make no sense.
    Roisin Shortall has been on the media almost on a weekly basis for years prating about Health. Now , with an all-party agreement about the Slaintecare policy, she has an opportunity to leverage her appointment as Min for Health so that she can take charge of implementing it.
    The bigger parties would welcome the addition of the S Dems to present a more vivid image of change so they would be in a stronger negotiating position than usual. To not even investigate the possibilities of forming a programme for gov is absurd . The S Dems and Greens would constitute 20 % of gov -which would certainly equal change . The SDs could still walk away if not enough of their red lines were met.
    I can only conclude that Shortall is afraid of the challenge of actually taking on the responsibility of being in government and would prefer to continue offering idealistic platitudes from the safety of opposition.

    You answered your own question.

    The SDs know their inclusion in an FF/FG govt would provide a "vivid image" and nothing more. They don't believe there would be any actual change just a pretence and some lip service. Just like when Enda promised "new politics" and the LP took the fall when it become obvious it was the same old politics.

    Propping up the Duoply is not in any way, shape, or form "change". It's business as usual.


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    #4903
    Snow Garden
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,126 ✭✭✭Snow Garden


    WishUWereHere wrote: »
    EXCELLENT question. BUT if I remember correctly, wasn't it the bould Enda who said he would put a stop to all this travel abuse?

    Yeah it's a bit rich FFG trying to bring SF's murky past into view when FFG TDs are corrupt today and have been very corrupt for the past 2 decades. I am talking about expense corruption primarily.


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    #4904
    beggars_bush
    Registered Users Posts: 4,361 ✭✭✭beggars_bush


    I wouldn't wish the job of minister for health on my worst enemy

    You actually need about 3 ministers to properly tackle the changes needed - infrastructure, staffing, organisational


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    #4905
    boardise
    Registered Users Posts: 3,404 ✭✭✭boardise


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    You answered your own question.

    The SDs know their inclusion in an FF/FG govt would provide a "vivid image" and nothing more. They don't believe there would be any actual change just a pretence and some lip service. Just like when Enda promised "new politics" and the LP took the fall when it become obvious it was the same old politics.

    Propping up the Duoply is not in any way, shape, or form "change". It's business as usual.

    FF + FG + Greens =84 so SDs not strictly needed .What I was saying is that the SDs could manage to become part of a new administration if they had the appetite for it -since the 'image' issue would be the open door for the others to accept them in. 'Image' is only a notional construct in other minds - the SD presence could be a transformative reality.
    Shortall stands exposed as a quitter -all pompous vapourings but no inclination to fight to be the change she has been preaching about ad nauseam.
    I don't think we're in the circumstances the Labour Party were in when struggling with a deep recession -but if the SDs are indeed concerned about their electoral fate after a spell in a broad 4 party coalition then they're no different from than any other party who put their own welfare above the needs of the country.
    What would indeed represent 'more of the same ' is the SDs sitting virtuously in opposition yet again while telling everyone else how things should be done.


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    #4906
    eagle eye
    Registered Users Posts: 37,553 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    beggars_bush wrote:
    You actually need about 3 ministers to properly tackle the changes needed - infrastructure, staffing, organisational
    You need to not be afraid of bad press while you sort it out. The problem is that these guys are thinking about the next election all the time. You'll never sort out the health service if you are afraid of upsetting people.


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    #4907
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    boardise wrote: »
    FF + FG + Greens =84 so SDs not strictly needed .What I was saying is that the SDs could manage to become part of a new administration if they had the appetite for it -since the 'image' issue would be the open door for the others to accept them in. 'Image' is only a notional construct in other minds - the SD presence could be a transformative reality.
    Shortall stands exposed as a quitter -all pompous vapourings but no inclination to fight to be the change she has been preaching about ad nauseam.
    I don't think we're in the circumstances the Labour Party were in when struggling with a deep recession -but if the SDs are indeed concerned about their electoral fate after a spell in a broad 4 party coalition then they're no different from than any other party who put their own welfare above the needs of the country.
    What would indeed represent 'more of the same ' is the SDs sitting virtuously in opposition yet again while telling everyone else how things should be done.

    And what I am saying is that an FF/FG coalition would have nothing new about it.
    It would be the same old we have had since the formation of the state.

    Your personal attacks on Shorthall would suggest you are not an SD voter.
    I am.
    I did not vote for them to give the illusion that something might possibly maybe have a hint of a tinge of change to a grand neo-liberal alliance.

    Why should the SDs compromise on their ethos by supporting 2 parties with completely different ideologies when neither FF or FG are willing to compromise theirs by going into coalition with SF?

    Is Leo a "quitter"? He has made it clear he wants to lead the opposition. This from the man who was leader of the country a few weeks ago.


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    #4908
    its_steve116
    Registered Users Posts: 2,400 ✭✭✭its_steve116


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    And what I am saying is that an FF/FG coalition would have nothing new about it.
    It would be the same old we have had since the formation of the state.

    Your personal attacks on Shorthall would suggest you are not an SD voter.
    I am.
    I did not vote for them to give the illusion that something might possibly maybe have a hint of a tinge of change to a grand neo-liberal alliance.

    Why should the SDs compromise on their ethos by supporting 2 parties with completely different ideologies when neither FF or FG are willing to compromise theirs by going into coalition with SF?

    Is Leo a "quitter"? He has made it clear he wants to lead the opposition. This from the man who was leader of the country a few weeks ago.
    Lead the opposition? That can only happen if FF and SF go into coalition.


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    #4909
    Umaro
    Registered Users Posts: 1,561 ✭✭✭Umaro


    It worked out so well for Mary Harney and her party, not sure what Shortall is scared of.


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    #4910
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    its_steve116 wrote: »
    Lead the opposition? That can only happen if FF and SF go into coalition.

    Perhaps he has delusions of grandeur.


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    #4911
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Umaro wrote: »
    It worked out so well for Mary Harney and her party, not sure what Shortall is scared of.

    What party would that be?
    How many seats did they win this time around?

    Why on Earth would a left leaning party refuse to support a neo-liberal coalition when a neo-liberal party did so well out of being in a neo-liberal coalition with just one of the proposed partners that they are now an ex-party?

    Gosh, that is a brain teaser isn't it.

    Perhaps you could explain to me why it is ok for FF and FG to refuse to work with SF for ideological reasons but it's not ok for the SDs to refuse to work with FF/FG for the exact same reason?


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    #4912
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 38,917 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Snow Garden wrote: »
    Yeah it's a bit rich FFG trying to bring SF's murky past into view when FFG TDs are corrupt today and have been very corrupt for the past 2 decades. I am talking about expense corruption primarily.
    Which FF or FG TDs are corrupt today and have been very corrupt for the past 2 decades.
    How have they gained from their corruption


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    #4913
    is_that_so
    Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    Umaro wrote: »
    It worked out so well for Mary Harney and her party, not sure what Shortall is scared of.
    Well Harney really, but she had the cojones to take it on. Not a complete success but probably one of our best MoH.


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    #4914
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    is_that_so wrote: »
    Well Harney really, but she had the cojones to take it on. Not a complete success but probably one of our best MoH.

    How many women have died thanks to Mary Harney the MoH who outsourced cervical cancer screening to save money?
    How much did she save in the long-term?

    "Not a complete success" is, imo, spitting on the women whose lives she valued so little.


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    #4915
    tobsey
    Registered Users Posts: 1,275 ✭✭✭tobsey


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    How many women have died thanks to Mary Harney the MoH who outsourced cervical cancer screening to save money?
    How much did she save in the long-term?

    "Not a complete success" is, imo, spitting on the women whose lives she valued so little.

    None died because the testing was outsourced. Any lab could have misread the tests. The issue was that when the mistakes were identified the patients weren’t told straight away, therefore they were less likely to recover.


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    #4916
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    tobsey wrote: »
    None died because the testing was outsourced. Any lab could have misread the tests. The issue was that when the mistakes were identified the patients weren’t told straight away, therefore they were less likely to recover.

    The issue was that early signs of cancer were missed , picked up in subsequent tests, and the women concerned were not told.

    In fact, senior health practitioners warned Mary Harney in 2008 that outsourcing screening to the US could result in up too 1,000 early warning signs being missed per year. She was warned it was against best medical practice and went ahead anyway. That is not the sign of a good minister for health.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/warning-against-smear-test-outsourcing-1.822846?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fwarning-against-smear-test-outsourcing-1.822846

    and why did the medical experts warn Minister Harney?
    Let's see what Doctor David Gibbons chair of the cytology/histology group in the quality assurance committee of the National Cervical Screening Program had to say.
    Ireland follows the same smear system as the UK – where in-depth screens are carried out every three years. However, America screens on a yearly basis.

    Gibbons said: “The United States system screens on a yearly basis, and they do a quick screen every year so they get repeated bites at the cherry.

    “In Ireland, the system was set up with a three-year screen. A three-year screen works if you have a deep screen every three years.
    https://www.thejournal.ie/smear-tests-outsourced-missing-3985784-Apr2018/


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    #4917
    boardise
    Registered Users Posts: 3,404 ✭✭✭boardise


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    How many women have died thanks to Mary Harney the MoH who outsourced cervical cancer screening to save money?
    How much did she save in the long-term?

    "Not a complete success" is, imo, spitting on the women whose lives she valued so little.

    I believe that there is a female politician at large who knows all there is to know about health ,who has a heart of gold , who acts from the purest of motives and is inspired by the loftiest ethical standards.
    Now if only someone could get a message to her up on the high moral ground where she resides -maybe she could be persuaded to come to our rescue
    Roisin - thy hour is come. Destiny is calling . The sick and suffering of Ireland await your salving touch.


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    #4918
    Good loser
    Registered Users Posts: 3,176 ✭✭✭Good loser


    tobsey wrote: »
    None died because the testing was outsourced. Any lab could have misread the tests. The issue was that when the mistakes were identified the patients weren’t told straight away, therefore they were less likely to recover.


    Don't think that's how it went.


    When the women were diagnosed in later years, to check the efficacy of the system they looked back over any previous tests to see if anything was overlooked.


    I believe (?) elsewhere (England?) more than half the women once diagnosed didn't want the results of earlier tests made known to them. It would make no difference to the treatments they were getting.


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    #4919
    Good loser
    Registered Users Posts: 3,176 ✭✭✭Good loser


    is_that_so wrote: »
    It would put the idea of introducing laws for the common good up against personal rights and end up in court anyway.
    https://www.thejournal.ie/readme/rent-freeze-4929058-Dec2019/


    I would hope and expect the Courts to dissallow rent freezes.


    Effectively a rent freeze picks a group of citizens (landlords) to transfer money to another group of citizens (tenants). If the Govt wants to help tenants (financially, say) it should do it through a rent subsidy as in the HAP scheme.


    IN the longer term it should provide for an increase in housing supply so that the market causes rents to fall - as it has done for centuries.


    There is no reason a tenant may not be wealthier than the landlord of his property.


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    #4920
    markodaly
    Registered Users Posts: 13,954 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    I did not vote for them to give the illusion that something might possibly maybe have a hint of a tinge of change to a grand neo-liberal alliance.

    In fairness, you have been giving out yarns about how FF and FG wont go into a coaltion government with SF.
    Now when your beloved SD state similar about FF and FG you defend it.

    Hypocrite much?


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    #4921
    markodaly
    Registered Users Posts: 13,954 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    How many women have died thanks to Mary Harney the MoH who outsourced cervical cancer screening to save money?
    How much did she save in the long-term?

    "Not a complete success" is, imo, spitting on the women whose lives she valued so little.

    The wrong question asked there. How many womens lives have been saved by the introduction of cervical cancer screening in the first place?
    Afaik, this was intoduced when MH was MoH.


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