Jordan Peterson interview on C4

LineOfBeauty · 20-02-2020 5:10pm

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Well then, if the risk of attack in these spaces is minimal, then transwomen should be able to use the facilities of their biological sex, right?

I’ve shared many a space with lesbians over the years. Doesn’t bother me at all. In pretty much every case, if I was accosted by a lesbian, I’d be very confident I could fight them off. Oh yes, maybe not the lesbian bodybuilder. Well, I guess that puts me my place re: not wanting to share with packing transwomen. ALL transwomen will be way stronger than me. Every last one. Only the odd woman will be.

Or their assumed gender because, as you say, the risk of attack is beyond minimal.

If you feel safe enough to share a space with the lesbian bodybuilder then you should feel safe enough sharing a space with a trans person. Legally trans people are allowed to share spaces with you, you say you've shared spaces with lesbians in the past, how many trans people have you shared a space with?

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 20-02-2020 5:33pm

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

Or their assumed gender because, as you say, the risk of attack is beyond minimal.

If you feel safe enough to share a space with the lesbian bodybuilder then you should feel safe enough sharing a space with a trans person. Legally trans people are allowed to share spaces with you, you say you've shared spaces with lesbians in the past, how many trans people have you shared a space with?

So if the risk of attack is minimal, why can’t transwomen use men’s facilities?

Like I said, every single transwoman will be far stronger than me. Only the odd woman will be.

I’ve shared a women’s space with a transwoman once before to my knowledge in a very controlled work environment.

And finally, 11 year old menstruating me would have been far more comfortable around any women including lesbians than a biological male. Why are we even talking about lesbians, who are biological females?

LineOfBeauty · 20-02-2020 5:39pm

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

So if the risk of attack is minimal, why can’t transwomen use men’s facilities?

Like I said, every single transwoman will be far stronger than me. Only the odd woman will be.

I’ve shared a women’s space with a transwoman once before to my knowledge in a very controlled work environment.

And even in this controlled work environment the trans woman did not attack you? I wonder if you use public facilities like gyms, leisure centres or sports complexes, you may have even shared a space again with a trans person unbeknownst to yourself and yet you remain unharmed. By the way, you aren't the only one who remains unharmed having shared such a space with a trans person.

I'm certain that all lesbian bodybuilders will be stronger than you, unless you too are a bodybuilder? In which case, should we make it a rule that all gay men and all lesbian women stronger than the average person in a changing room at any one time should be denied access to that changing room until they are no longer stronger than the average of the population in the changing room? Is that the future that you want?

LineOfBeauty · 20-02-2020 5:41pm

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

So if the risk of attack is minimal, why can’t transwomen use men’s facilities?

Like I said, every single transwoman will be far stronger than me. Only the odd woman will be.

I’ve shared a women’s space with a transwoman once before to my knowledge in a very controlled work environment.

And finally, 11 year old menstruating me would have been far more comfortable around any women including lesbians than a biological male. Why are we even talking about lesbians, who are biological females?

Because you, and apparently some others on this thread, have a terrible fear of changing rooms and, much like in the 70's where people would subtly (and not so subtly) link homosexuality with pedophilia, there's certainly an element of dog whistling here linking transgender-ism to being a sexual predator. Different minority, different decade, same story.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 20-02-2020 5:45pm

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

And even in this controlled work environment the trans woman did not attack you? I wonder if you use public facilities like gyms, leisure centres or sports complexes, you may have even shared a space again with a trans person unbeknownst to yourself and yet you remain unharmed. By the way, you aren't the only one who remains unharmed having shared such a space with a trans person.

I'm certain that all lesbian bodybuilders will be stronger than you, unless you too are a bodybuilder? In which case, should we make it a rule that all gay men and all lesbian women stronger than the average person in a changing room at any one time should be denied access to that changing room until they are no longer stronger than the average of the population in the changing room? Is that the future that you want?

You... don’t understand the difference between a work environment and public spaces where there are many more variables? The nature of the work meant that lots of us were changing together. You’d never be in there in small numbers.

I have no idea what point you are making with the bolded part.

The female bodybuilder (I’m not sure you are specifying that she be a lesbian) will be stronger than me, yes. Just like every single transwoman.

Again, that you are specifying that lesbian bodybuilders should be banned by the logic is odd. Not straight female bodybuilders. What?

LineOfBeauty · 20-02-2020 5:54pm

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

You... don’t understand the difference between a work environment and public spaces where there are many more variables? The nature of the work meant that lots of us were changing together. You’d never be in there in small numbers.

I have no idea what point you are making with the bolded part.

The female bodybuilder (I’m not sure you are specifying that she be a lesbian) will be stronger than me, yes. Just like every single transwoman.

Again, that you are specifying that lesbian bodybuilders should be banned by the logic is odd. Not straight female bodybuilders. What?

So, presumably this person was a co-worker of yours, and you had probably known them a while, and yet you only felt comfortable in a changing room with them because there was loads of other people there too so you were assured this person wouldn't attack you...this co-worker who you probably see every day, probably chat to every day, and yet you only feel comfortable in their presence when there's lots of witnesses (?) around? What does that say to you?

Point is simple. You say you're afraid of being sexually assaulted in this public space by a trans person (this trans person would presumably have to be attracted to women). You say you feel unsafe because this trans person can physically overpower you. By that logic, everytime a strong looking lesbian walks into a changing room you are in (because that person is also attracted to women) you should run a mile. By that logic, everytime I (a fit male) walks into a changing room, men who are physically weaker than me should run for their lives? Does this proposition sound preposterous?

creditcarder · 20-02-2020 5:59pm

Gynoid wrote: »

When I think back on all these decades when Mammies have been fascist bigots bringing their little boys in with them to the ladies changing rooms. Until said boys might be approaching puberty in which case they reluctantly sent them into the mens with stern warnings ringing in their ears. Why were they such bitches? Maybe because the RATE of sex assault is higher among men and they wanted to mind their boys?

You are wrong. Men are more likely to be 'sexually assaulted' by women than by men.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 20-02-2020 6:16pm

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

So, presumably this person was a co-worker of yours, and you had probably known them a while, and yet you only felt comfortable in a changing room with them because there was loads of other people there too so you were assured this person wouldn't attack you...this co-worker who you probably see every day, probably chat to every day, and yet you only feel comfortable in their presence when there's lots of witnesses (?) around? What does that say to you?

Point is simple. You say you're afraid of being sexually assaulted in this public space by a trans person (this trans person would presumably have to be attracted to women). You say you feel unsafe because this trans person can physically overpower you. By that logic, everytime a strong looking lesbian walks into a changing room you are in (because that person is also attracted to women) you should run a mile. By that logic, everytime I (a fit male) walks into a changing room, men who are physically weaker than me should run for their lives? Does this proposition sound preposterous?

I didn’t know her personally. We were in the same company, but not in the same department. We all knew about the transition because she sent a company wide email. We’d share the changing rooms fairly often because different departments needed to do so to go to the clean area of the facility.

I said sexual assault was a fear but just also feeling comfortable in changing facilities. Lesbians have been through female socialisation just like any other woman and so why would I feel uncomfortable around a lesbian?

And I’m going to keep highlighting this - every single transwoman will be way stronger than me. Every single one. The lesbian bodybuilder will be too. But she’s shared female facilities all her life and has been socialised like all other women and that matters, as much as you’d like to handwave it away.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 20-02-2020 6:30pm

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

But we've had self ID for 5 years and it hasn't been a problem! And again, in the scenario I laid out a few posts ago, any lad going to the bother of changing their status on self ID and going into a ladies changing room will probably just be thrown out. Realistically, a public space where they are drawing huge amounts of attention to themselves is probably the opposite of ideal conditions for a sexual predator.

Considering reporting of sexual assaults are low, how do you know this? We know that men commit by far the most violent and/or sexual crimes. Transwomen are still in that statistical category.

20Cent · 20-02-2020 6:45pm

transphobia

: irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against transgender people

Fits a few posters here.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 20-02-2020 6:56pm

20Cent wrote: »

transphobia

: irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against transgender people

Fits a few posters here.

Like I said earlier in the thread, that epithet rolls off my back now. It might have bothered me at one point but I’m past caring and do not give a fuck. Come at me, bro.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 20-02-2020 7:01pm

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

Because you, and apparently some others on this thread, have a terrible fear of changing rooms and, much like in the 70's where people would subtly (and not so subtly) link homosexuality with pedophilia, there's certainly an element of dog whistling here linking transgender-ism to being a sexual predator. Different minority, different decade, same story.

Men commit the most violent and sexual crimes by a long shot. Transgender women aren’t exempted from this category because they are still biologically male. So, yeah, I am indeed linking transgender women to male levels of crime. I don’t believe transgender women would be more likely to be violent than a man, I’m saying the ratio of offenders to non-offenders would hold for transgender women as for men because why wouldn’t it?

It was abhorrent that gay men were automatically thought to be paedophiles back in the day. However, some are, just like straight men.

20Cent · 20-02-2020 7:17pm

Saw on Reddit.
Glad Peterson is getting better but this is funny.

Brian? · 20-02-2020 7:22pm

20Cent wrote: »

Saw on Reddit.
Glad Peterson is getting better but this is funny.

That’s brilliant.

Gynoid · 20-02-2020 7:37pm

Christopher Worton aka Zoe Lynes, the 22 year old transwoman who repeatedly raped a child between the age of 13 and 15, is the lady that Lisa Nandy, who hopes to be UK's Labour party leader, vows to imprison in a female prison because Transwomen are women.

Toni-Prince.jpg?w=990

Toni Price, convicted in 2019 of possession of 1000s of indecent images including depiction of child rape has their crimes refered to as being committed by a woman.

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Daniel-Reeves-Ella-Davies.jpg?resize=300%2C169

Ella Davies, trasnwoman, convicted in 2019 of possessing 1000s of images of children being raped, which police say were among the worst they had ever seen, used their gender dysphoria as a mitigating plea i court and received a suspended sentence.

David-Challenor.jpg?resize=260%2C300

David Challenor, transvestite who identifies as a child also, kidnapped a 10 year old girl, shackled her in his attic, and raped her many times. He was at the time the campaign manager for Aimee Challenor, transwoman Green Party politician, their Equality Spokesperson, who knew of her fathers behaviour.

images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcRrGe5zMR065s0XkwQygbBSDdpZ4jQbCmVLPsWldWLdA-u1Wo_1

images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcRrGe5zMR065s0XkwQygbBSDdpZ4jQbCmVLPsWldWLdA-u1Wo_1

Aimee Challenor, supporter of their rapist father, then became a Lib Dem politician, appointed their Diversity Officer, after the Greens were forced to kick them out of office. They were recently suspended from that party too.

jacinta-brooks-dob-20-08-77-Hampshire-Police.jpg?resize=260%2C300

jacinta-brooks-dob-20-08-77-Hampshire-Police.jpg?resize=260%2C300

Jacinta Brookes, UK transwoman, violent rapist of children, was persistently refered to in reporting media as a woman.

Shaun-Pudwell.jpg?resize=214%2C300

Michelle Saunders, jailed for child prostitution, pornography, grooming and sexual offences, has been transferred to female prison in the UK, to await gender reassignment surgery paid for by the state. Women prisoners are said to be terrified of him.

Karen-White-2.jpg?resize=768%2C383

Karen White, multiple violent rapist, including of a pregnant woman, was transferred to female prison in 2018 where they sexually assaulted two women who had no means of escaping from him.

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Richard-Grattage-FB.png?resize=294%2C300

Vicky Green who self IDs as a woman is convicted of attempted rape and grooming of underaged girls, has repeatedly seeking to be transferred to a female prison. So far he has not managed to be transferred.

Jess Bradley, Uks first Transgender Student Officer, appointed by the National Union of Students, has been suspended recently for repeatedly posting indecent images of themselves taken in public places such as on trains etc to their public blog.

Tyler Porter a man who identifies as a transwoman posts pictures like this of himself naked in women's shelters, and talks about walking around with his titties out and having morning wood at the thought of being in a female space.

These are but a minute fraction of the pictures I could post of very violent or disrespectful people who wholly intend to access single sex spaces on the grounds of gender self identification.

Gynoid · 20-02-2020 7:39pm

Brian? wrote: »

That’s brilliant.

Really? I'm not a fan of Peterson but as a human being I wish him well. You seem to have a warped idea of what is ''brilliant''. Kind of nasty to be honest.

creditcarder · 20-02-2020 7:58pm

@gynoid

Why are so many rapists/pedofiles turning into women? Is there something strange going on with the government mandated therapy or something?

Gynoid · 20-02-2020 8:06pm

creditcarder wrote: »

@gynoid

Why are so many rapists/pedofiles turning into women? Is there something strange going on with the government mandated therapy or something?

I do not think many rapists / pedophiles are turning into women.
I think it is more likely that sex offfenders are attempting to use the Self ID gender recognition mechanism to get into better circumstances in prison, either a female prison or a specially segregated section in a male prison. Many may be just misusing the law to simply get better terms and conditions for themselves.
There may be other elements at play - larger abuse as children stats in transgender cases, for example. There are some very preliminary studies which show higher incidences of abuse or violence in the childhoods of young people seeking to transition. Higher rates of autism and anxiety/depression also. But it would take a long while to have the timeline for studies to be reputable on this matter, and it would also take the political will to allow investigation. At the moment anything outside of affirmation is considered de facto bigoted.

creditcarder · 20-02-2020 8:12pm

Gynoid wrote: »

I do not think many rapists / pedophiles are turning into women.
I think it is more likely that sex offfenders are attempting to use the Self ID gender recognition mechanism to get into better circumstances in prison, either a female prison or a specially segregated section in a male prison. Many may be just misusing the law to simply get better terms and conditions for themselves.
There may be other elements at play - larger abuse as children stats in transgender cases, for example. There are some very preliminary studies which show higher incidences of abuse or violence in the childhoods of young people seeking to transition. Higher rates of autism and anxiety/depression also. But it would take a long while to have the timeline for studies to be reputable on this matter, and it would also take the political will to allow investigation. At the moment anything outside of affirmation is considered de facto bigoted.

I'll be a bigot and say that I hope the world asks psychologists in the future some very tough questions about how they are treating patients with 'gender dysphoria'. You take a vulnerable person and you give them positive feedback towards one aspect and negative feedback towards another, then of course things will get confused.

ILoveYourVibes · 20-02-2020 8:17pm

creditcarder wrote: »

You are wrong. Men are more likely to be 'sexually assaulted' by women than by men.

This is a lie.

Boarding schools ...prisons ...even the general population...men rape more men than they rape women in the us

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/cifamerica/2012/feb/21/us-more-men-raped-than-women

Its just more stigmatized.

creditcarder · 20-02-2020 8:27pm

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

This is a lie.

Boarding schools ...prisons ...even the general population...men rape more men than they rape women in the us

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/cifamerica/2012/feb/21/us-more-men-raped-than-women

Its just more stigmatized.

Your wrong. The poster said sexual assault and women touch men's biceps, hands and other sexualised zones way more than men do.

EmmetSpiceland · 20-02-2020 8:35pm

creditcarder wrote: »

Your wrong. The poster said sexual assault and women touch men's biceps, hands and other sexualised zones way more than men do.

*you’re

20-02-2020 8:39pm

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

This is a lie.

Boarding schools ...prisons ...even the general population...men rape more men than they rape women in the us

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/cifamerica/2012/feb/21/us-more-men-raped-than-women

Its just more stigmatized.

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/11/the-understudied-female-sexual-predator/503492/

Only the 2010 report provides data on the perpetrator’s sex. It found that over their lifetime, women were vastly more likely to experience abuse perpetrated by men, as were male victims who were penetrated without their consent. “But among men reporting other forms of sexual victimization, 68.6% reported female perpetrators,” the paper reports, while among men reporting being made to penetrate, “the form of nonconsensual sex that men are much more likely to experience in their lifetime ... 79.2% of victimized men reported female perpetrators.”

"They add that “for women prisoners and girls in detention, staff perpetrators are overwhelmingly male, and for men and boys the staff perpetrators are overwhelmingly female.” Women are disproportionately represented among all staff abusers because men and boys are so disproportionately incarcerated overall."

"..while it is often assumed that inmate-on-inmate sexual assault comprises men victimizing men, the survey found that women state prisoners were more than three times as likely to experience sexual victimization perpetrated by women inmates (13.7 percent) than were men to be victimized by other male inmates (4.2 percent) (Beck et al., 2013)."

"Tellingly, researchers have found that victims who experience childhood sexual abuse at the hands of both women and men are more reluctant to disclose the victimization perpetrated by women (Sgroi & Sargent, 1993). Indeed the discomfort of reporting child sexual victimization by a female perpetrator can be so acute that a victim may instead inaccurately report that his or her abuser was male (Longdon, 1993).

Male victims may experience pressure to interpret sexual victimization by women in a way more consistent with masculinity ideals, such as the idea that men should relish any available opportunity for sex (Davies & Rogers, 2006). Or, sexual victimization might be reframed as a form of sexual initiation or a rite of passage, to make it seem benign. In some cases, male victims are portrayed as responsible for the abuse. Particularly as male victims move from childhood to adolescence, they are ascribed more blame for encounters with adult women.

And according to the paper, when female abusers are reported, they are less likely to be investigated, arrested, or punished compared to male perpetrators, who are regarded as more harmful."

Not a lie. Just inaccurate. As you are. Just as women have claimed for decades that reports were wrong, men can claim the same thing.

By the way, he said sexually assaulted. Not rape.

Brian? · 20-02-2020 9:11pm

Gynoid wrote: »

Really? I'm not a fan of Peterson but as a human being I wish him well. You seem to have a warped idea of what is ''brilliant''. Kind of nasty to be honest.

The joke was twofold. Zizek, who I admire greatly, actually looks like a homeless man the way he dresses. That’s really what I was laughing at.

Gynoid · 20-02-2020 9:29pm

Brian? wrote: »

The joke was twofold. Zizek, who I admire greatly, actually looks like a homeless man the way he dresses. That’s really what I was laughing at.

Oh. Not the other half of the "brilliant" one line "joke" where someone ends up on a coma. Grand.

creditcarder · 20-02-2020 11:00pm

Deleted User wrote: »

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/11/the-understudied-female-sexual-predator/503492/

Only the 2010 report provides data on the perpetrator’s sex. It found that over their lifetime, women were vastly more likely to experience abuse perpetrated by men, as were male victims who were penetrated without their consent. “But among men reporting other forms of sexual victimization, 68.6% reported female perpetrators,” the paper reports, while among men reporting being made to penetrate, “the form of nonconsensual sex that men are much more likely to experience in their lifetime ... 79.2% of victimized men reported female perpetrators.”

"They add that “for women prisoners and girls in detention, staff perpetrators are overwhelmingly male, and for men and boys the staff perpetrators are overwhelmingly female.” Women are disproportionately represented among all staff abusers because men and boys are so disproportionately incarcerated overall."

"..while it is often assumed that inmate-on-inmate sexual assault comprises men victimizing men, the survey found that women state prisoners were more than three times as likely to experience sexual victimization perpetrated by women inmates (13.7 percent) than were men to be victimized by other male inmates (4.2 percent) (Beck et al., 2013)."

"Tellingly, researchers have found that victims who experience childhood sexual abuse at the hands of both women and men are more reluctant to disclose the victimization perpetrated by women (Sgroi & Sargent, 1993). Indeed the discomfort of reporting child sexual victimization by a female perpetrator can be so acute that a victim may instead inaccurately report that his or her abuser was male (Longdon, 1993).

Male victims may experience pressure to interpret sexual victimization by women in a way more consistent with masculinity ideals, such as the idea that men should relish any available opportunity for sex (Davies & Rogers, 2006). Or, sexual victimization might be reframed as a form of sexual initiation or a rite of passage, to make it seem benign. In some cases, male victims are portrayed as responsible for the abuse. Particularly as male victims move from childhood to adolescence, they are ascribed more blame for encounters with adult women.

And according to the paper, when female abusers are reported, they are less likely to be investigated, arrested, or punished compared to male perpetrators, who are regarded as more harmful."

Not a lie. Just inaccurate. As you are. Just as women have claimed for decades that reports were wrong, men can claim the same thing.

By the way, he said sexually assaulted. Not rape.

I find it disturbing how fluid sexual assault and rape are used. Sexual assault has been broadened so much that it can encompass anything (touching sonmebody's arm), yet, a tthe drop of a hat, it is changed to the word 'rape' when it is dissused even in otherwise well respected newspaper

20-02-2020 11:17pm

creditcarder wrote: »

I find it disturbing how fluid sexual assault and rape are used. Sexual assault has been broadened so much that it can encompass anything (touching sonmebody's arm), yet, a tthe drop of a hat, it is changed to the word 'rape' when it is dissused even in otherwise well respected newspaper

It's just the way things are going. Terms are losing their definition. You see it here with Transphobic. Previously it would have meant someone who hated or feared Transgender people. A phobia, of sorts. However, it's been expanded in use to cover anything that the advocate considers suitable.

You'll see the same with feminists who promote the statistics about rape, sexual assault, harassment etc. The Metoo campaign really brought that kind of thing out in the open where people would claim all manner of horrible crimes for the smallest of offenses, but equating them with the more serious crimes.

I figure it's intentional.. it desensitizes people, so that they eventually stop objecting to the more extreme associations. It's already happening with sexual assault and harassment. It's become a very fine line between the two things. The next logical step is to associate rape and sexual assault, and so there won't be a scale of offense. There will just be a severe offense and the circumstances won't matter.

s7ryf3925pivug · 20-02-2020 11:33pm

Looking at prisoners stats and articles:

Trans pattern offenders generally follow the patterns associated with their birth sex. Biological males are more violent. Biological female pattern offenders commit economic crimes.

An exception to that is with sex offenders. Almost 20% of male inmates are sex offenders compared to less than 4% of biological males. However almost half of biological male trans inmates are sex offenders.

Two thirds of trans that were born men retain male genitals.

Apparently 2% of prisoners in Irish prisons are professing to be trans. This strikes me as highly unlikely and much more likely to be lying for personal advantage, including being moved to female prisons.

I don't agree with trans who were born men being allowed to compete as women in sports because going through puberty as a male places you at an obvious physical advantage. I certainly don't agree with moving pre-op trans to womens prisons, or violent offenders, and certainly not sex offenders.

As regards other benefits, those should not exist in the first place.

creditcarder · 20-02-2020 11:34pm

Deleted User wrote: »

It's just the way things are going. Terms are losing their definition. You see it here with Transphobic. Previously it would have meant someone who hated or feared Transgender people. A phobia, of sorts. However, it's been expanded in use to cover anything that the advocate considers suitable.

You'll see the same with feminists who promote the statistics about rape, sexual assault, harassment etc. The Metoo campaign really brought that kind of thing out in the open where people would claim all manner of horrible crimes for the smallest of offenses, but equating them with the more serious crimes.

I figure it's intentional.. it desensitizes people, so that they eventually stop objecting to the more extreme associations. It's already happening with sexual assault and harassment. It's become a very fine line between the two things. The next logical step is to associate rape and sexual assault, and so there won't be a scale of offense. There will just be a severe offense and the circumstances won't matter.

In Sweden, everything seems to be classed as rape. Strangely, I feel like rape has turned into something that is almost like a dog needing a hit on the nose wiht a newspaper. It has completly been lowered compared to the west imo.

CtevenSrowder · 20-02-2020 11:50pm

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

Because you, and apparently some others on this thread, have a terrible fear of changing rooms and, much like in the 70's where people would subtly (and not so subtly) link homosexuality with pedophilia, there's certainly an element of dog whistling here linking transgender-ism to being a sexual predator. Different minority, different decade, same story.

The discussion was about people feeling comfortable. You are the one that brought trans-people being sexual predators into the equation.

Jordan Peterson interview on C4

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