Jordan Peterson interview on C4

20Cent

Gynoid wrote: »

Apparently it is of concern to some people, oh dear.

In the UK with a larger population the public are seeing the implications in female jails with actual sexual assaults and court cases. We have one male bodied prisoner so far in an Irish womens prison.
In the US which is larger, biological female sport is seeing the implications.
It is becoming an issue in various jurisdictions whether you like it or not, and the logical incoherence will arise here too at one point when someday conflicting rights clash.

The Dentons Document which advises Trans lobby groups says to avoid publicity like Ireland did, and piggy back legislation on more popular causes like SSM. Dentons describes Scotland as a PR disaster because the mouthy women got wind of gender self ID proposals and the implications, and wouldn't you know the stroppy wagons are kicking up a storm.

Humans have sent people to the moon.
This can be sorted as well.

Gynoid

20Cent wrote: »

Humans have sent people to the moon.
This can be sorted as well.

Heh, you think we ain't coming back from sending male rapists to women's jails, or from allowing male bodied tranagender people to knock seven shades of shyte out of female competitors?
Brace, lad.

20Cent

Gynoid wrote: »

Heh, you think we ain't coming back from sending male rapists to women's jails, or from allowing male bodied tranagender people to knock seven shades of shyte out of female competitors?
Brace, lad.

Sporting bodies have introduced new rules and prisons can do the same. No need to ban trans people.

nkl12xtw5goz70

20Cent wrote: »

Sporting bodies have introduced new rules and prisons can do the same.

Look at the inconsistencies here.

Trans activists believe that trans women are women — and therefore any effort to distinguish between natural-born women and trans women when it comes to changing rooms, sports, prisons, rape crisis centers, etc., amounts to transphobic bigotry and discrimination.

One can't claim that a trans woman is a woman, while on the other hand saying that a trans woman shouldn't compete against natural-born female athletes or be housed in a women's prison because "she" isn't really a woman. At that point, one has to choose — is a trans woman a woman, and entitled to be treated exactly like a natural born woman in every circumstance? Or is a trans woman something other than a woman?

Brian?

Deleted User wrote: »

Ah lads..

Razor sharp debating there.

Brian?

Gynoid wrote: »

I answered re what ideology people like 20cents believe in and yourself perhaps, by giving an extended gender theory criticism sample as it shows both sides well. I like Julian Vigo's POV. It was to me that he said I am not an idealogue. I think otherwise.

Im not pivoting on Zizek, am standing where I always have re him, wondering how someone raised in Tito's Yugoslavia could be a Leninist. I find him extremely difficult to listen to so I don't.

I think I mixed you up with someone else, apologies.

Gynoid

Kassidy Savory Tick wrote: »

Look at the inconsistencies here.

Trans activists believe that trans women are women — and therefore any effort to distinguish between natural-born women and trans women when it comes to changing rooms, sports, prisons, rape crisis centers, etc., amounts to transphobic bigotry and discrimination.

One can't claim that a trans woman is a woman, while on the other hand saying that a trans woman shouldn't compete against natural-born female athletes or be housed in a women's prison because "she" isn't really a woman. At that point, one has to choose — is a trans woman a woman, and entitled to be treated exactly like a natural born woman in every circumstance? Or is a trans woman something other than a woman?

Exactly. The ideology requires full commitment at present. There cannot be limited transubstantiation in this creed. At some point even believers have to question if they uphold the mantra that transwomen are women etc.
My point all along is that transwomen are transwomen. They deserve dignity etc. But the idea that they ARE women is bonkers.

nkl12xtw5goz70

Gynoid wrote: »

Exactly. The ideology requires full commitment at present. There cannot be limited transubstantiation in this creed. At some point even believers have to question if they uphold the mantra that transwomen are women etc.

Precisely. Interestingly, we now see both 20Cent and Brian? acknowledging that in circumstances such as athletic competitions and prisons, trans women should not be regarded as equivalent to natural-born women; they should be subject to special rules and restrictions that do not apply to women generally.

Ultimately, then, 20Cent and Brian? actually appear to reject the mantra that "trans women are women." They don't see trans women as women in every circumstance, which is tantamount to not recognizing them as women at all.

20Cent

Kassidy Savory Tick wrote: »

Look at the inconsistencies here.

Trans activists believe that trans women are women — and therefore any effort to distinguish between natural-born women and trans women when it comes to changing rooms, sports, prisons, rape crisis centers, etc., amounts to transphobic bigotry and discrimination.

One can't claim that a trans woman is a woman, while on the other hand saying that a trans woman shouldn't compete against natural-born female athletes or be housed in a women's prison because "she" isn't really a woman. At that point, one has to choose — is a trans woman a woman, and entitled to be treated exactly like a natural born woman in every circumstance? Or is a trans woman something other than a woman?

Depends what you consider a trans person to be.
You lot seem to think anyone will just start living as the other gender just to perv in changing rooms. There is a process they go through. If you think someone might abuse a system that isn't a reason for getting rid of it altogether.

nkl12xtw5goz70

20Cent wrote: »

Depends what you consider a trans person to be.

Do you believe that a trans woman is a woman? Yes or no answer, please.

20Cent

Cost is a big part of the problem. People who want to transition particularly in the US can't afford to. If it was paid for by governments then those who want to fully transition can. Would solve some of the issues.

nkl12xtw5goz70

You managed to evade answering the question there. Do you believe that a trans woman is a woman? Yes or no?

I have to laugh... there is the concern about decreasing birth rates in 1st world nations, along with a growing elderly group... but we should be encouraging women and men to make gender transitions that remove them from the possibility of having children (along with the concerns for associated health problems from transitioning, further burdening health services..) Ahh logic. Lets's encourage our decline even further!

I do genuinely wonder if we're all caught up in some alien social experiment. It's the kind of thing done in video games when you're tired of playing and wanting to see how your civilisation will implode.

A lady I work with told me recently that her health insurance will give 50% up to e10000 back for gender reassignment surgery, but doesn't cover mental health..

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

I have to laugh... there is the concern about decreasing birth rates in 1st world nations, along with a growing elderly group... but we should be encouraging women and men to make gender transitions that remove them from the possibility of having children (along with the concerns for associated health problems from transitioning, further burdening health services..) Ahh logic. Lets's encourage our decline even further!

Like, when you look at the logical consequences of some of the positions pushed overall, and their cumulative effect, it starts to look quite sinister..

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Like, when you look at the logical consequences of some of the positions pushed overall, and their cumulative effect, it starts to look quite sinister..

I'll go with idiotic, or self-destructive, rather than sinister.. :pac:

20Cent

Deleted User wrote: »

Like, when you look at the logical consequences of some of the positions pushed overall, and their cumulative effect, it starts to look quite sinister..

Exact same argument was used against gay people.

20Cent

20Cent wrote: »

Exact same argument was used against gay people.

What does that even mean?..I'm starting to worry about your comprehension skills..

What, when people were pushing for gay rights were there people saying 'hang on a minute, next thing we'll have men thinking they're women trying to get changed in the ladies?

20Cent

Kassidy Savory Tick wrote: »

You managed to evade answering the question there. Do you believe that a trans woman is a woman? Yes or no?

I know you want to steer the discussion down some cul de sac. It's a very complex and complicated issue with lots of nuances. Yes a trans woman is a woman.

nkl12xtw5goz70

20Cent wrote: »

Yes a trans woman is a woman.

If a trans woman is a woman, why do you support discriminatory rules in sports and in prisons?

20Cent

Deleted User wrote: »

What does that even mean?..I'm starting to worry about your comprehension skills..

Some seem to believe that trans visibility will result in more people turning trans. Same was said about homosexually. Remember a fella on one of the debates before the ssm referendum saying similar.

20Cent

20Cent wrote: »

Some seem to believe that trans visibility will result in more people turning trans. Same was said about homosexually. Remember a fella on one of the debates before the ssm referendum saying similar.

But, like, that has happened in the last few years?.

20Cent

Kassidy Savory Tick wrote: »

If a trans woman is a woman, why do you support discriminatory rules in sports and in prisons?

In prison there needs to be more than self Id because then someone who isn't actually trans could abuse the situation. They would need to be at a certain stage of transition and have medical approval.

Sports discriminate all the time. Different weight classes in boxing for example.

20Cent

Deleted User wrote: »

But, like, that has happened in the last few years?.

People are more comfortable coming out now. Do you think people who aren't trans are just turning that way?

Exact same as homosexuality. Once is became morr publicly acceptable more people came out.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

What does that even mean?..I'm starting to worry about your comprehension skills..

It's a deflection. The cause of rights for LGB, and Transgenders are light years apart but he'll continue trying to link them to give his beliefs some validity. He's probably hoping that you forget that you asked the question if he adds in more variables... and then he'll say that he forgot what the question was... He did it three times to me, and eventually I became triggered... I'm expecting to see the same tactic repeated on others...

nkl12xtw5goz70

20Cent wrote: »

In prison there needs to be more than self Id because then someone who isn't actually trans could abuse the situation.

This is coming from the same person who argues that sex offenders couldn't abuse self-ID to gain access to women's changing rooms.

Either the system is open to abuse or it isn't. You can't pick and choose and say that it's open to abuse in some situations but not in others.

They would need to be at a certain stage of transition and have medical approval.

So you "need to be at a certain stage of transition" to gain full acceptance as a woman? That implies that a self-identified trans person who hasn't medically transitioned isn't really a woman — despite your stated belief that all trans women are women.

Sports discriminate all the time. Different weight classes in boxing for example.

On what basis would you tell a 150 lb trans boxer that "she" can't fight a 150 lb natural-born woman? As far as you are concerned, both of them are women and both of them weigh the same — so what's the problem?

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Royce Stocky Stage wrote: »

Instead of having designated male and female spaces, just have penis and penisless spaces. That way everybody's happy. Trans people don't have to say they are a different gender than they see themselves as. Sex offenders can't get into womens prisons with their genitals intact. Biological males get to assert that they have a penis every time they use the Jacks. [It's great to have a penis. Not surprised that two thirds of m2f trans choose to keep theirs.]

Even without genitals, physical strength is preserved and sexual assault doesn’t just involve penetration.

20Cent

Kassidy Savory Tick wrote: »

This is coming from the same person who argues that sex offenders couldn't abuse self-ID to gain access to women's changing rooms.

Either the system is open to abuse or it isn't. You can't pick and choose and say that it's open to abuse in some situations but not in others.


So you "need to be at a certain stage of transition" to gain full acceptance as a woman? That implies that a self-identified trans person who hasn't medically transitioned isn't really a woman — despite your stated belief that all trans women are women.

Someone in prison will be very desperate to get into an easier regime. People risk their lives to escape. Someone on the outside though is hardly going to change just so they can see a flash of your mickey in the changing rooms.

Kassidy Savory Tick wrote: »

On what basis would you tell a 150 lb trans boxer that "she" can't fight a 150 lb natural-born woman? As far as you are concerned, both of them are women and both of them weigh the same — so what's the problem?

Plenty of other metricks besides weight can be used, BMI, testosterone levels etc. It's not insurmountable most sports bodies already have rules about it.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

20Cent wrote: »

Plenty of other metricks besides weight can be used, BMI, testosterone levels etc. It's not insurmountable most sports bodies already have rules about it.

It’s actually causing headaches for sporting bodies:

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/sport/2019/sep/24/ioc-delays-new-transgender-guidelines-2020-olympics

nkl12xtw5goz70

20Cent wrote: »

Someone in prison will be very desperate to get into an easier regime. People risk their lives to escape. Someone on the outside though is hardly going to change just so they can see a flash of your mickey in the changing rooms.

Now you're belittling the experiences of sexual assault victims. And yet you're the one preaching "compassion"?

In case you haven't noticed, sex offenders can be every bit as determined and desperate to target their victims.

Plenty of other metricks besides weight can be used, BMI, testosterone levels etc. It's not insurmountable most sports bodies already have rules about it.

All of these "metrics" involve trying to find ways to distinguish trans women from natural-born women — which undercuts the activists' claim that trans women are women. You can't have it both ways. You can't recognize someone as a woman but then tell her that "metrics" prevent her from competing in female athletic contests.