Jordan Peterson interview on C4

LineOfBeauty · 20-02-2020 10:28AM

Brian? wrote: »

It's an extremely nuanced issue. I've said I don't know the answer.

I am trying to make the point that reinforcing existing taboos and creating new ones isn't the answer though.

I am surprised at all of the people who are so adamant that everyone deserves to feel comfortable, all the time, especially 12 year old girls. And at the same time dismissing the right of trans people to feel comfortable. Somehow they come to the conclusion that we need to police changing rooms.

I know Bojangles said it earlier but just to reinforce the point here, what is it people are doing in changing rooms/bathrooms? The way they're described on this thread they are like some lawless no man's land. I have a suspicion that attacks that do occur in these areas are more likely to either be carried out of people of the same sex as the victim, or men who don't identify as trans.

20-02-2020 10:32AM

Brian? wrote: »

It was sarcasm.

You needed to tell me that twice? And I find sarcasm is hard to detect considering your other posts about transgenders on this thread.

I am not denying anyone's right to privacy. I am including Trans people, you aren't.

They're entitled to privacy. Never even suggested that they didn't. I did say that other people (namely females) shouldn't lose their privacy to accommodate them.

Every solution I've seen proposed here is unworkable, so I believe the current situation is the least bad solution.

Every situation is unworkable because you want complete change to society instantly. No compromise is allowed. Instant and complete acceptance for all things transgender.

20Cent · 20-02-2020 10:32AM

Self ID cam into Ireland five years ago.
As the law stands a trans person can use the bathrooms and changing room of their gender now.

Is anyone put off using them now?
Has anyone even seen a trans person in the changing room?
Haven't heard any problems reported anywhere about it or of it being abused.

Best get yer placards out if you are against it.

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 20-02-2020 10:34AM

Brian? wrote: »

Jesus, it was sarcasm.

It doesn't track as sarcasm.

You want biological males accessing women's changing areas. If a 12-year-old girl then feels uncomfortable changing there, your solution is to tell her that this is perfectly natural elsewhere in the world, so she should get over her inhibitions and strip off in front of anatomical adult males. But if I were to tell the biological male self-identifying as a woman to get over his inhibitions and change in the men's, I'm sure that would be termed transphobic bigotry.

This follows the pattern in this thread, where displaying compassion towards the self-identifications and feelings of trans/nonbinary people is regarded as the paramount virtue. Meanwhile, anybody else's needs and feelings — especially those of women, girls, and parents — are disregarded.

The reality is that girls and women are being sexually assaulted at much higher rates in the unisex facilities that have been installed to cater to trans people. Schoolgirls are avoiding drinking liquids and crossing their legs during school hours, rather than use the unisex bathrooms that have replaced gender-segregated bathrooms in their schools. Some girls are missing school entirely while menstruating. Women's groups that advocate segregated spaces for natural-born women have been designated as "hate groups" in a statement signed by two out of three prospective leaders of the British Labour Party. An Oxford professor who made the same argument is now under protection after receiving credible threats.

You think this is a "compassionate" society?

20-02-2020 10:38AM

Brian? wrote: »

I am surprised at all of the people who are so adamant that everyone deserves to feel comfortable, all the time, especially 12 year old girls. And at the same time dismissing the right of trans people to feel comfortable. Somehow they come to the conclusion that we need to police changing rooms.

Except that I didn't suggest policing changing rooms. I suggested that we all behave like responsible and respectful people, and recognise the differences based on biology. Male changing rooms for biologically born males, and female changing rooms for biologically females. Hell, all the transgenders can come to the male changing rooms, because we're not intimidated by physical differences. But females are and that should be taken into account.

Compromises need to be made for anything to happen. It can't just be the majority who change. Transgenders need to accept that change takes time, and those changes will need to occur over stages, rather than rushed in.

Honestly, I find this rush to accept all things transgender to be awfully short sighted. You're going to find a rather nasty backlash if peoples's rights are trampled.. and there's a lot more non-transgendered people.

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 20-02-2020 10:45AM

Brian? wrote: »

I am not denying anyone's right to privacy.

A 12-year-old girl arrives at the swimming pool with a parent. There are biological males in the men's changing area. There are biological males identifying as women in the women's changing area. The girl doesn't feel comfortable changing in front of biological males, regardless of what they identify as.

She has no right to privacy given what you're suggesting, so I guess she should just go back home?

Brian? · 20-02-2020 10:48AM

Deleted User wrote: »

You needed to tell me that twice? And I find sarcasm is hard to detect considering your other posts about transgenders on this thread.

They're entitled to privacy. Never even suggested that they didn't. I did say that other people (namely females) shouldn't lose their privacy to accommodate them.

Every situation is unworkable because you want complete change to society instantly. No compromise is allowed. Instant and complete acceptance for all things transgender.

I want to change society instantly? I really don't think I do, it would be awfully tiring. I am not the one who wants to ban people from spaces.

For one of the rare occasions I can think of, I am arguing the current situation is the only solution i can see.

Brian? · 20-02-2020 10:50AM

Kassidy Savory Tick wrote: »

It doesn't track as sarcasm.

I'm telling you it was.

You want biological males accessing women's changing areas. If a 12-year-old girl then feels uncomfortable changing there, your solution is to tell her that this is perfectly natural elsewhere in the world, so she should get over her inhibitions and strip off in front of anatomical adult males. But if I were to tell the biological male self-identifying as a woman to get over his inhibitions and change in the men's, I'm sure that would be termed transphobic bigotry.

This follows the pattern in this thread, where displaying compassion towards the self-identifications and feelings of trans/nonbinary people is regarded as the paramount virtue. Meanwhile, anybody else's needs and feelings — especially those of women, girls, and parents — are disregarded.

The reality is that girls and women are being sexually assaulted at much higher rates in the unisex facilities that have been installed to cater to trans people. Schoolgirls are avoiding drinking liquids and crossing their legs during school hours, rather than use the unisex bathrooms that have replaced gender-segregated bathrooms in their schools. Some girls are missing school entirely while menstruating. Women's groups that advocate segregated spaces for natural-born women have been designated as "hate groups" in a statement signed by two out of three prospective leaders of the British Labour Party. An Oxford professor who made the same argument is now under protection after receiving credible threats.

You think this is a "compassionate" society?

What's the obsession with 12 year old girls?

I think a compassionate society looks after the rights of minorities and doesn't impose the tyranny of the majority.

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 20-02-2020 11:01AM

Brian? wrote: »

What's the obsession with 12 year old girls?

Nobody is "obsessed" with 12-year-old girls. Several women posted on this thread that they felt especially sensitive about changing in front of other people during adolescence. Stripping off in front of an anatomical male would have been an absolute no at that time — a concern that you blithely dismiss.

I think a compassionate society looks after the rights of minorities and doesn't impose the tyranny of the majority.

The rights of minorities aren't the only rights that matter. Anyone who cares about looking after rights should care when the rights of others — especially women, girls, lesbians, and parents — are being trampled by trans activists.

Where's your compassion for the girl who loses races and her college scholarship because she has to compete against biological males?

Where's your compassion for the schoolgirl who is staying home while on her period, rather than facing shaming comments from boys in the unisex bathroom?

Where's your compassion for the Oxford professor who is being terrorized by trans activists for saying that women should have spaces of their own?

Where's your compassion for the lesbians who are being condemned for "hatred" and "bigotry" for saying that they don't want sex with people who have penises?

Frankly, you could do with expanding your notion of a "compassionate society" a little bit.

20-02-2020 11:02AM

Brian? wrote: »

I want to change society instantly? I really don't think I do, it would be awfully tiring. I am not the one who wants to ban people from spaces.

You're wanting to change the status quo. A system that has been there for over two hundred years, and change it to allow biologically born males into female only areas. And.. I'm not banning anyone. They're already not supposed to be in there with females.

For one of the rare occasions I can think of, I am arguing the current situation is the only solution i can see.

Except you're not arguing a solution. You've dismissed any solutions presented by other posters. You're arguing a complete surrender of everyone to Transgender wants.

And I'd still like to know why Transgender wants are more important than the wants of the majority... Because that is what you are pushing here.

Brian? · 20-02-2020 11:03AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Except that I didn't suggest policing changing rooms. I suggested that we all behave like responsible and respectful people, and recognise the differences based on biology. Male changing rooms for biologically born males, and female changing rooms for biologically females. Hell, all the transgenders can come to the male changing rooms, because we're not intimidated by physical differences. But females are and that should be taken into account.

Compromises need to be made for anything to happen. It can't just be the majority who change. Transgenders need to accept that change takes time, and those changes will need to occur over stages, rather than rushed in.

Honestly, I find this rush to accept all things transgender to be awfully short sighted. You're going to find a rather nasty backlash if peoples's rights are trampled.. and there's a lot more non-transgendered people.

This is going in circles. Most transgender women won't be comfortable in mens changing rooms.

20Cent · 20-02-2020 11:04AM

So you folks who are so concerned about trans people in shared spaces done anything about it?
Have you contacted your td to have the laws rescinded?

Because it sure sounds like hollow concerns in order to bully a minority for no good reason.

Brian? · 20-02-2020 11:05AM

Kassidy Savory Tick wrote: »

Nobody is "obsessed" with 12-year-old girls. Several women posted on this thread that they felt especially sensitive about changing in front of other people during adolescence. Stripping off in front of an anatomical male would have been an absolute no at that time — a concern that you blithely dismiss.

The rights of minorities aren't the only rights that matter. Anyone who cares about looking after rights should care when the rights of others — especially women, girls, lesbians, and parents — are being trampled by trans activists.

Where's your compassion for the girl who loses races and her college scholarship because she has to compete against biological males?

Where's your compassion for the schoolgirl who is staying home while on her period, rather than facing shaming comments from boys in the unisex bathroom?

Where's your compassion for the Oxford professor who is being terrorized by trans activists for saying that women should have spaces of their own?

Where's your compassion for the lesbians who are being condemned for "hatred" and "bigotry" for saying that they don't want sex with people who have penises?

Frankly, you could do with expanding your notion of a "compassionate society" a little bit.

I am compassionate for all of the above. I think it's ridiculous to have transgender women compete with biological women, sorry ladies. Terrorising lecturers, lesbians etc. is all wrong. I never argued otherwise.

20-02-2020 11:05AM

Brian? wrote: »

I'm telling you it was.

What's the obsession with 12 year old girls?

I think a compassionate society looks after the rights of minorities and doesn't impose the tyranny of the majority.

As opposed to imposing tyranny on the majority for the wants of an extreme minority?

sbsquarepants · 20-02-2020 11:07AM

Brian? wrote: »

This is going in circles. Most transgender women won't be comfortable in mens changing rooms.

And why was it again that their discomfort trumps the discomfort of others?

Brian? · 20-02-2020 11:07AM

Deleted User wrote: »

You're wanting to change the status quo. A system that has been there for over two hundred years, and change it to allow biologically born males into female only areas. And.. I'm not banning anyone. They're already not supposed to be in there with females.

Except you're not arguing a solution. You've dismissed any solutions presented by other posters. You're arguing a complete surrender of everyone to Transgender wants.

And I'd still like to know why Transgender wants are more important than the wants of the majority... Because that is what you are pushing here.

I am arguing a solution. The way it is now, until someone suggests something that's actually better.

Brian? · 20-02-2020 11:08AM

sbsquarepants wrote: »

And why was it again that their discomfort trumps the discomfort of others?

It doesn't. It's a Mexican stand off of discomfort.

20-02-2020 11:08AM

Brian? wrote: »

This is going in circles. Most transgender women won't be comfortable in mens changing rooms.

I honestly don't see why. You made the point that you weren't arguing biology..

20-02-2020 11:11AM

Brian? wrote: »

I am arguing a solution. The way it is now, until someone suggests something that's actually better.

What solution? Give transgenders (of all types) complete access? Yes?

You see that as the only realistic and reasonable solution? (since you've dismissed all the other solutions presented)

sbsquarepants · 20-02-2020 11:15AM

Brian? wrote: »

It doesn't. It's a Mexican stand off of discomfort.

And therefore the easiest solution is for the 99.9% to change their behaviour to accommodate the .1%

Is that it?

LineOfBeauty · 20-02-2020 11:17AM

sbsquarepants wrote: »

And therefore the easiest solution is for the 99.9% to change their behaviour to accommodate the .1%

Is that it?

Maybe the 99.9% don't have a problem with it, maybe it's just the 0.01% that have this "changing room" problem?

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 20-02-2020 11:19AM

If the choice is between forcing a 12-year-old girl to experience discomfort, and forcing a grown adult to experience discomfort, the answer should be obvious.

Children are more deserving of sensitivity.

If anyone is to be told to just get on with it, it should be the adult, not the child.

LineOfBeauty · 20-02-2020 11:22AM

Kassidy Savory Tick wrote: »

If the choice is between forcing a 12-year-old girl to experience discomfort, and forcing a grown adult to experience discomfort, the answer should be obvious.

Children are more deserving of sensitivity.

If anyone is to be told to just get on with it, it should be the adult, not the child.

Chances are a child wouldn't even notice an actual trans person in their presence in a changing room. It's their father looking for a fight whose far more likely to cause a scene.

Gynoid · 20-02-2020 11:53AM

Brian? wrote: »

This is going in circles. Most transgender women won't be comfortable in mens changing rooms.

Why not?

Gynoid · 20-02-2020 11:57AM

Because they are women having to change in front of men?? ^^^^

20Cent · 20-02-2020 11:59AM

Gynoid wrote: »

Because they are women having to change in front of men?? ^^^^

Gynoid have you done anything to have the law reversed since it is of such concern to you?

20-02-2020 12:13PM

20Cent wrote: »

Gynoid have you done anything to have the law reversed since it is of such concern to you?

But that's not really how it works..no one will go actively campaigning to change the law.. you would just be met with vitriol from the twitterati..but it will engender (BOOM!) a kind of resentment under the surface..which in turn will lead to the rise of an opposition..and you will wonder how it happened.. It's the likes of this that has led to Trump, and brexit, and rather than learn from these, people are getting more entrenched.. It's quite tragic really..

Jordan Peterson attempted to object to a law, and here you are two years later still giving out about him..

20-02-2020 12:23PM

Anyone who tried to say a word about this law would be sacked like maya f or death and rape threats galore like jkr and anyone else who has a concern expressed on twitter. Posted a link to plenty of such threats earlier in thread.

Third spaces already exist ie family changing rooms. Surely mixed sex in there. 12 year old can stick with female only and either trans people could use third space

markodaly · 20-02-2020 12:30PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Nobody is stupid for feeling uncomfortable having to share a space with strangers. Get that out of the way first of all. Now the thing is, in the example you gave, the circumstances of that case were that the male assailant wasn’t even trying to pass themselves off as a woman.

You are missing the point.

There is a narrative being pushed that if young girls feel uncomfortable sharing public spaces like toilets or hospital wards with older men, then they should just get over it.

It does not matter really if the men in question are biological men. In this day where someone can self-identity whatever gender they feel like on any given day, then it gives pause to the practical problems this may cause.

markodaly · 20-02-2020 12:32PM

Brian? wrote: »

There are plenty of 12 year old girls in the world who are naked in front of men regularly without issues.

.

WHAT???

Do you have your own kids?

Jordan Peterson interview on C4

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