Jordan Peterson interview on C4

LineOfBeauty · 17-02-2020 06:20PM

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

LineOfBeauty, I’m left-wing. Where do I fit in?

Into any toilet you like, in this, a Game of Toilets.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 17-02-2020 06:23PM

Penn wrote: »

I'm pretty sure it does, to an extent. Hormone Replacement Therapy results in reduced muscle mass (or quicker to reduce if the normal workout regime isn't maintained)

That’s far from the only advantage though. Those hormones exerted their influence during puberty and many of those pubertal changes cannot be erased.

AND with self-ID, somebody would not even have to do any course of hormones in order to say they are a woman. I’m not sure if self-ID is that commonplace yet in the West but it’s certainly being pushed for by activists.

LineOfBeauty · 17-02-2020 06:23PM

Kassidy Savory Tick wrote: »

Unisex Changing Rooms Put Women at Danger of Sexual Assault, Data Reveals — The Independent

But sure, keep on pretending that alarmist "right wingers" are making all this up.

How many of those assaults were by trans people? Again, what bloke is sticking on a wig going into a female changing room (where he will at best be heavily scrutinized by staff and those in the changing room or, at worst asked to explain himself) and is then going to carry out an attack in public in a space where he's already drawn huge attention to himself. In what world is that happening?

Gynoid · 17-02-2020 06:23PM

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

I'm done for posting today but quick one for tomorrow because your points are either wrong or misleading but I'd love to know, of the people arguing against trans rights on this thread, how many of them are straight? How many of them are white? How many of them are male? It's odd because on these threads you see pop up here and on social media, the great white knights for women usually tick all 3 of those boxes. And when an actual womens rights (feminism) topic crops up, all of a sudden they are back to hating on women. It's so weird how that works.

Im a straight, pinkish/sallow skinned female. Sometimes a little flushed, then you could say I am red. I guess.

Brian? · 17-02-2020 06:26PM

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

It's intentional, it's a tactic. Just read a couple of posts, in almost every reply there is an attack (overt or implied) on the character of the person they disagree with. Note how rarely it is the other way around. Also by the time you get a reply, your lucky if your view isn't distorted out of all recognition and you haven't been deemed an angry hateful person. In fact each one of your posts probably qualify as Non Crime Hate Incidents.

Is it now. I was he one that said it and I don’t believe hate speech should be a crime. Can you square that in your head and come back to me ?

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 17-02-2020 06:32PM

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

Into any toilet you like, in this, a Game of Toilets.

Swing and a miss.

Wibbs · 17-02-2020 06:37PM

Brian? wrote: »

What’s considered “common decency”doesn't really change though. Which is the only real position I hold. Which is why I asked “what positions”

Shifting morality throughout history is a given. What is considered "common decency" has changed quite a bit over time and even when it appears to be pretty concrete, nobody's a saint even then.

I’d appreciate an apology for accusing me of being lazy and stupid when I merely asked for clarification.

I said the projection refrain is lazy and not a little stupid, not you.

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 17-02-2020 06:45PM

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

How many of those assaults were by trans people?

Yet again, you're missing the point.

Unisex changing rooms, which are increasingly put in place to cater to trans individuals, are actually putting women and girls at greater risk of sexual assault.

Women and girls are demonstrably safer in changing/showering areas that exclude males. The data back this up.

Wibbs · 17-02-2020 06:47PM

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

I'm done for posting today but quick one for tomorrow because your points are either wrong or misleading but I'd love to know, of the people arguing against trans rights on this thread, how many of them are straight? How many of them are white? How many of them are male? It's odd because on these threads you see pop up here and on social media, the great white knights for women usually tick all 3 of those boxes. And when an actual womens rights (feminism) topic crops up, all of a sudden they are back to hating on women. It's so weird how that works.

Well it's Ireland so the vast majority are going to be lacking in melanin. You're going to have a majority of people who are straight in the world. Men about half, though more online arguing with themselves.

Though this smacks of the daft US college social "sciences" intersectional what victim am I ballsology that has crept into too much discourse.

I personally consider modern feminism being a once good idea gone daft and demonstrably so, from blatant mistruths to the point of open misandry, and yes I mean mainstream feminism, not just the loony fringe. However even a stopped clock is right twice a day and on the Trans matter(and it's nearly always male to female Trans shouting and acting the loudest) I think this is one of those correct time moments.

suicide_circus · 17-02-2020 06:50PM

Wibbs wrote: »

However even a stopped clock is right twice a day and on the Trans matter(and it's nearly always male to female Trans shouting and acting the loudest)

where are the middle aged women with husbands and children suddenly realising they are in fact men and always have been?

Wibbs · 17-02-2020 07:03PM

suicide_circus wrote: »

where are the middle aged women with husbands and children suddenly realising they are in fact men and always have been?

True enough, though there are so called late life lesbians, where women with long term husbands and families who always thought themselves straight fall in love with a woman. Though that's sexuality rather than gender, but maybe there is some crossover in that with grown up families(societal "job" done) and middle age coming along they feel freer to express themselves?

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 17-02-2020 07:07PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Well it's Ireland so the vast majority are going to be lacking in melanin. You're going to have a majority of people who are straight in the world. Men about half, though more online arguing with themselves. Though this smacks of the daft US college social "sciences" intersectional what victim am I ballsology that has crept into too much discourse.

I personally consider modern feminism being a once good idea gone daft and demonstrably so, from blatant mistruths to the point of open misandry, and yes I mean mainstream feminism, not just the loony fringe. However even a stopped clock is right twice a day and on the Trans matter(and it's nearly always male to female Trans shouting and acting the loudest) I think this is one of those correct time moments.

I was never a feminist and for the first time in my life, I feel feminist stirrings inside me because this is too important.

But there are factions. Feminists who oppose the end of sex-segregation and the inclusion of transwomen in women’s sports are called TERFs and are seen as distinct from liberal feminists. I read and contribute to a gender critical subreddit. Unfortunately a lot of the members are pretty anti-men. I only align with them on the transgender issue. But anyway, these gender-critical feminists are demeaned as TERFs. I got my first abusive reddit mail on the topic the other day. It read ‘KYS TERF. Yaniv was right!”. I had never made any comment on Reddit about Yaniv at all. I had to look KYS up. KYS = kill yourself. Charming.

Even though she was a radical feminist, I’d really recommend the videos of the late Magdalen Berns on the transgender topic. They are pretty hilarious:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkK7zisjoDk

Brian? · 17-02-2020 07:36PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Shifting morality throughout history is a given. What is considered "common decency" has changed quite a bit over time and even when it appears to be pretty concrete, nobody's a saint even then.

Not really. Being decent to other human beings is pretty constant for the last couple of thousand years. But the definition of who one should be decent to has changed. Over time it has broadened, with some minor contractions which as quickly reversed.

As time goes on society has become more egalitarian, I can’t see any reverse of that occurring. So I’m pretty confident my mantra of decency will hold up.

I said the projection refrain is lazy and not a little stupid, not you.

You’re not actually addressing my point about what I see as projection. People like to group other people. I’m socially progressive, ergo I must believe certain things. That’s what I meant by projection. I don’t think it’s lazy or stupid to call this out, it happens to me all the time. Particularly on the subject of free speech.

FYI, calling posts lazy and stupid amounts to calling the people who wrote them lazy and stupid IMO.

Brian? · 17-02-2020 07:40PM

suicide_circus wrote: »

where are the middle aged women with husbands and children suddenly realising they are in fact men and always have been?

The biggest problem I have with the modern trans movement is that it’s unacceptable to ask questions like this.

There was a great post on a thread a while back about Autogynaphelia. Trans activists refuse to acknowledge its real. They really let themselves down when it comes to actual science. They are far too quick to circle the wagons and go into full offended mode.

17-02-2020 07:47PM

Penn wrote: »

I'm pretty sure it does, to an extent. Hormone Replacement Therapy results in reduced muscle mass (or quicker to reduce if the normal workout regime isn't maintained)

I'm 192 cm tall, skinny, and I have very little upper body strength. But I can still defeat most women in terms of strength, because actual strength is more than just muscle. My sister can carry far heavier things than me, but in any kind of wrestling, or physical tug-of-war, I'd win. And even though she's heavy looking after having three kids, and I'm skinny, I still weight more than her, even if I do look like a lamp-post at times. (I do self-defense classes with women, and I tend to be much stronger than them for fighting.. so it's not just my sister)

So... males have physical advantages over females. That's pure simple biology based on how we grew up/developed as children, into teens, and then adults. Perhaps it's different if the alter the gender when they're a baby, but I doubt it.

Akrasia · 17-02-2020 07:54PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

No, you're right. They're not being forced to have sex, but they're being criticized as trans-phobic for not engaging in sex with one. So a lesbian is transphobic if she refuses to have sex with a Transgender person who identifies as female but still has a penis.

Who is she being criticized by and why on earth would anyone care what such a lunatic has to say?

Gynoid · 17-02-2020 07:56PM

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

.... there are factions. ....Unfortunately a lot of the members are pretty anti-men. I only align with them on the transgender issue.....

]

This is a really good point , worth emphasising.
I feel very similarly. A lot of the gender critical women I read are what are called RadFem. I appreciate very much that they stand up courageously and are damn ballsy, but I would be rejected by them on many other issues. The anti-man basis to their arguments is also very offensive to me, especially as I have sons, brothers, good men in my life. I also think it is a shallow self defeating circulatory ground from which to argue, it breeds division, it is whiny and catty and boring. Just my opinion.
Personally I find gender theory deeply offensive because of its inherent irrationality. It seeks to contradict provable fact. Wants to tear down reality. Biology. Evolution. Science etc. It causes terrible physical harm, especially to young people.Taken to its logical conclusions - and it is an all or nothing creed of its very nature - it is an incoherent mess.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 17-02-2020 08:00PM

Brian? wrote: »

Not really. Being decent to other human beings is pretty constant for the last couple of thousand years. But the definition of who one should be decent to has changed. Over time it has broadened, with some minor contractions which as quickly reversed.

As time goes on society has become more egalitarian, I can’t see any reverse of that occurring. So I’m pretty confident my mantra of decency will hold up.

You’re not actually addressing my point about what I see as projection. People like to group other people. I’m socially progressive, ergo I must believe certain things. That’s what I meant by projection. I don’t think it’s lazy or stupid to call this out, it happens to me all the time. Particularly on the subject of free speech.

FYI, calling posts lazy and stupid amounts to calling the people who wrote them lazy and stupid IMO.

Not really an FYI situation. People can make lazy, stupid posts without being very lazy and stupid. The whole ‘attack the post, not the poster’ rule acknowledges that people can make posts that don’t necessarily represent who they are.

EmmetSpiceland · 17-02-2020 08:01PM

20Cent wrote: »

Where do you think trans people should go to the bathroom or change?

By the sounds of it, I’d say he’d choose a gas chamber for them.

Gynoid · 17-02-2020 08:03PM

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

By the sounds of it, I’d say he’d choose a gas chamber for them.

Annnd.... Godwinned

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 17-02-2020 08:07PM

Brian? wrote: »

The biggest problem I have with the modern trans movement is that it’s unacceptable to ask questions like this.

There was a great post on a thread a while back about Autogynaphelia. Trans activists refuse to acknowledge its real. They really let themselves down when it comes to actual science. They are far too quick to circle the wagons and go into full offended mode.

In the Magdalen Berns video I posted, Alex Drummond said that, sigh, she had never heard about transgenderism until she was 40. She’s early 50s. That is just such blatant bullshit. In the video, Alex also helpfully informs us that women can fix cars too. Thanks, Alex!

17-02-2020 08:13PM

Kassidy Savory Tick wrote: »

Yet again, you're missing the point.

Unisex changing rooms, which are increasingly put in place to cater to trans individuals, are actually putting women and girls at greater risk of sexual assault.

Women and girls are demonstrably safer in changing/showering areas that exclude males. The data back this up.

The part i find a little frustrating is how short sighted the counter argument is. The number of attacks by Trans-gendered people is low, because they're an incredibly small minority. For now. Reports though show a major increase in surgeries, and those reports only cover those reported for insurance cover, not the ones done off the books.

So, what happens in 10 years when the numbers of Trans people have increased a 100%? Not much perhaps, but how do we define who should have access and who can't? Once you say that a trans person who has changed biologically through surgery can gain access, what's to stop a person who simply considers themselves a different gender? None at all.

And while at the moment, the number of nutcase trans are low, there's no guarantee that there won't be more in the future? After all, we are talking about people engaging in drug treatments that affect their hormones, which in turn, affects their emotions.

And perhaps we consider those who engage in trans procedures for less honest reasons? Like the male prisoners who change their gender to gain access to female only prisons.. They're a minority. Doesn't change that male rapists, and child abusers can change their gender to gain access to female only prisons, and since females are generally treated different than males in terms of sentencing and appeals, they'll likely gain parole quicker than if they'd been male. So, not just sexual predators in a female prison, but sexual predators being released early for becoming a female.

Where is the line? I mean it. The posters here who advocate the whole trans debate are being so narrow in their arguments. What happens in ten or twenty years time as the numbers increase? Not just the numbers of Trans-gendered people who did surgery or hormonal treatments.. but also the numbers of people who simply identify themselves as female.

17-02-2020 08:15PM

Akrasia wrote: »

Who is she being criticized by and why on earth would anyone care what such a lunatic has to say?

Advocates of transgender rights.

And why care? Seriously? You haven't noticed the aggression that tends to come from advocates on Trans issues on boards? now increase that to a mob of people in your face shouting that you're transphobic. Yup. No reason at all to care about it.

Gynoid · 17-02-2020 08:26PM

Talking about lunatics, Dawn Butler, front bench UK Labour spokeswoman, today says babies are born without a sex.

https://twitter.com/JammersMinde/status/1229439480064610308?s=19

Gynoid · 17-02-2020 08:39PM

I mean did you ever think you would see the day when a senior UK politician says on a mainstream tv program that babies have no sex.
It is fcuking bewildering what we have arrived at.

20Cent · 17-02-2020 08:45PM

Gynoid wrote: »

I mean did you ever think you would see the day when a senior UK politician says on a mainstream tv program that babies have no sex.
It is fcuking bewildering what we have arrived at.

Listened to the clip doesn't mention babies or sex.

Wibbs · 17-02-2020 08:53PM

Gynoid wrote: »

Talking about lunatics, Dawn Butler, front bench UK Labour spokeswoman, today says babies are born without a sex.

https://twitter.com/JammersMinde/status/1229439480064610308?s=19

We're long through the looking glass with some of these so called "progressives". It's like that term "assigned male/female at birth" as opposed to what? Here ya go folks it's a... eh baby... It seems to be a twist on and co-opted by the Right On when an actual intersex baby is born and things are ambiguous. And such assignments often turned out very badly in the old days.

Plus if on the one hand we're being told gender is a social construct, then how the hell do some then feel like they're in the wrong body? It's one or the other folks.

I do NOT deny the existence of Trans people. I would put them into the intersex category and I suspect down the line there'll be a test or series of tests involved that will indeed show a "male brain" in a female body and vice versa. Though I also strongly suspect if such a test came along there would be howls from some quarters, because it could well show a percentage have something else going on, dysmorphia etc.

Gynoid · 17-02-2020 08:53PM

Fionne Orlander. Very groovy trans person tells the London Mayor a few facts.

https://twitter.com/FionneOrlander/status/1229087625526611969?s=19

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 17-02-2020 08:54PM

20Cent wrote: »

Listened to the clip doesn't mention babies or sex.

The second clip does. There’s clearly two clips there and she says it’s in the second clip.

Wibbs · 17-02-2020 08:57PM

20Cent wrote: »

Listened to the clip doesn't mention babies or sex.

Ehh she does. She directly says "a child is born without sex" Clear as day. And of course goes on to say that anyone who doesn't buy into this stuff 100% is a "dogwhistler". It's like a bloody religion with these muppets. With attendant heresies and heretics.

Jordan Peterson interview on C4

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