Jordan Peterson interview on C4

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Brian? wrote: »

It wasn’t courteous, no. It should not have happened.

I’ll be pretty clear here. I don’t think anyone should be compelled to call anyone anything. Compelled speech is always wrong. People should never face legal punishment for dead naming trans people.

But, that doesn’t mean it’s ok to do it. It’s plain rude to do it when you know well you’re being rude.

Well, this woman was asked repeatedly in the court by the judge to stop misgendering the defendant while she was trying to give her account. Was it rude of her to keep saying “he”? I don’t think so. Firstly, she’s reliving a traumatic event. Secondly, the biological strength conferred on the defendant by experiencing male puberty was relevant. I believe the convicted assaulter was not given a custodial sentence. What if she had been? Women’s prison for her then?

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

Your views are very clear, that much is obvious.

Yes, they are. I gladly stand by them.

nkl12xtw5goz70

Brian? wrote: »

Seriously? Here in the Netherlands kids of both genders change in the male changing room all the time. There is no taboo about it. It’s common practice in Europe.

Yes, I should ask my 11-year-old daughter to undress in front of biological adult males. Nothing abnormal about that at all.

LineOfBeauty

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Well, this woman was asked repeatedly in the court by the judge to stop misgendering the defendant while she was trying to give her account. Was it rude of her to keep saying “he”? I don’t think so. Firstly, she’s reliving a traumatic event. Secondly, the biological strength conferred on the defendant by experiencing male puberty was relevant. I believe the convicted assaulter was not given a custodial sentence. What if she had been? Women’s prison for her then?

Quick question, how many cases (percentage-wise) of man on woman physical assault involve a trans person? In how many of those cases I wonder is the trans person the attacker or the victim? You seem pretty hot on this case, so I assume you're equally as hot on the vastly superior number where the trans person is being beaten up, no?

20Cent

Kassidy Savory Tick wrote: »

Yes, I should ask my 11-year-old daughter to undress in front of biological adult males. Nothing abnormal about that at all.

What do you do if you take her swimming?

Lots of dads bring their daughters into the changing rooms, pool near me has a family changing area.

nkl12xtw5goz70

20Cent wrote: »

What do you do if you take her swimming?

Lots of dads bring their daughters into the changing rooms, pool near me has a family changing area.

She goes into the women's changing room by herself.

All the more reason not to want biological males in there.

LineOfBeauty

Kassidy Savory Tick wrote: »

She goes into the women's changing room by herself.

All the more reason not to want biological males in there.

Or if it was a communal dressing room you could go in too and presto! problem solved.

Edit: What kind of swimming pool facility doesn't have family changing rooms?

20Cent

Kassidy Savory Tick wrote: »

She goes into the women's changing room by herself.

All the more reason not to want biological males in there.

Suppose it's also to do with age.

With your solution the transman with a beard would be in the ladies and the transwoman with boobs in the mens changing room.

20Cent

What do rightwingers do in bathrooms and changing rooms anyway!!!!

They seem to think everyone is going around showing their genitals to each other or having sex. Most people just get changed and feck off.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

Quick question, how many cases (percentage-wise) of man on woman physical assault involve a trans person? In how many of those cases I wonder is the trans person the attacker or the victim? You seem pretty hot on this case, so I assume you're equally as hot on the vastly superior number where the trans person is being beaten up, no?

Well, in the case I discuss, the transwoman was the attacker. Convicted. It was caught on camera too.

In general, I don’t know. I do know that even with transitioning much of the physical differences remain. So why would transwomen be exempted from biologically male statistics or be expected to be less violent?

Transwomen get assaulted. This doesn’t mean they don’t also assault. Both things can happen.

LineOfBeauty

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Well, in the case I discuss, the transwoman was the attacker. Convicted. It was caught on camera too.

In general, I don’t know. I do know that even with transitioning much of the physical differences remain. So why would transwomen be exempted from biologically male statistics or be expected to be less violent?

Transwomen get assaulted. This doesn’t mean they don’t also assault. Both things can happen.

They can happen sure, but tell me, which do you think happens more, the trans person doing the attacking or being attacked? Simple question.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

Or if it was a communal dressing room you could go in too and presto! problem solved.

Edit: What kind of swimming pool facility doesn't have family changing rooms?

Lots.

20Cent wrote: »

What do rightwingers do in bathrooms and changing rooms anyway!!!!

They seem to think everyone is going around showing their genitals to each other or having sex. Most people just get changed and feck off.

I’m left-wing. Where do I fit in?

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

They can happen sure, but tell me, which do you think happens more, the trans person doing the attacking or being attacked? Simple question.

Like I said, I don’t know. Do you know?

Call Me Jimmy

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

Nope, I'm not sure if we have a trans poster on this entire forum, and if we do I couldn't blame them for avoiding After Hours. I'm gay, I'm friends with trans people and have been since I was a teenager, I've been in LGBTQ rights groups with trans people, I dated a trans person and as a collective they are some of the bravest people I know because I know what kind of abuse they go through everyday just to live life as themselves and I probably couldn't do it, they are incredible.

Don't imply posters can't have an opinion on female athletics unless they are female athletes then.

How incredible they are doesn't have any impact on whether they have the right to compete against women in sports. There is absolutely no relationship between the two.

LineOfBeauty

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Lots.

Clearly I'm going to very different swimming facilities that you guys are. Your changing rooms seem to be some mad, politically motivated, sex mad, peadophile honeytraps. I got to regular changing rooms where people get changed and leave with minimal eye contact.

Brian?

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Well, this woman was asked repeatedly in the court by the judge to stop misgendering the defendant while she was trying to give her account. Was it rude of her to keep saying “he”? I don’t think so. Firstly, she’s reliving a traumatic event. Secondly, the biological strength conferred on the defendant by experiencing male puberty was relevant. I believe the convicted assaulter was not given a custodial sentence. What if she had been? Women’s prison for her then?

What exactly are you looking for here? I said it shouldn’t have happened.

LineOfBeauty

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Like I said, I don’t know. Do you know?

Exact figures no, but tell me, if you had to guess, which do you think happens more? Because, on that one I feel pretty confident I have the right answer and I think you know the answer too.

Brian?

Kassidy Savory Tick wrote: »

Yes, I should ask my 11-year-old daughter to undress in front of biological adult males. Nothing abnormal about that at all.

It’s not normal to you. I’m telling you that isn’t the case everywhere.

LineOfBeauty

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

Don't imply posters can't have an opinion on female athletics unless they are female athletes then.

How incredible they are doesn't have any impact on whether they have the right to compete against women in sports. There is absolutely no relationship between the two.

Weird, that had nothing to do with the quoted text and instead you've just started rambling about trans athletes.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

Clearly I'm going to very different swimming facilities that you guys are. Your changing rooms seem to be some mad, politically motivated, sex mad, peadophile honeytraps. I got to regular changing rooms where people get changed and leave with minimal eye contact.

Clearly. I’ve rarely been in a leisure centre in Ireland that didn’t have sex-segregated changing rooms. In fact even in slightly more comfortable with nudity Iceland, the changing rooms I used were sex-segregated.

I once or twice used family cubicles with my father when I was kid. But once I hit preteen, I wanted privacy. And he was my father, not some randomer.

Penn

20Cent wrote: »

With your solution the transman with a beard would be in the ladies and the transwoman with boobs in the mens changing room.

And that's always the issue everyone ignores when it comes to the toilet debate; if people should use the toilets based on their genitals or what gender they are biologically, trans men (with facial hair, short hair, no obvious breast, mens clothes) would have to use the women's toilets/changing rooms. So for those thinking sexual predators might dress up as women to get access to women's toilets if trans women are allowed to use them, sexual predators wouldn't even need to dress as women. They could just claim to be trans men. And if trans men are to use the women's toilets, then girls/women might not recognise that they may be in danger until it's too late, because they see a masculine person walk in and think "Must be a trans man..."

It should also be factored in to the discussion and lets take the 11 year old in the changing room as an example; what is the likelihood that she'd be in the changing room and the only other person in there is a trans woman? That there'd be no other women in there at all?

So what then? Only biological women use women's facilities, and men, trans men and trans women all use the mens?

I think it's important to note the simple reality that trans women already do use the women's facilities, most likely completely undetected. They go in, they use the facilities, keeping themselves to themselves, and they leave. They don't flash their genitalia around (which I'm told unlike those films I like tends not to happen with a room full of cisgender women either), they try not to make women feel uncomfortable, and they just go about their business. It already happens, it's not a new phenomena. The onus is on trans women to use the facilities correctly and not infringe on anyone else's comfort or safety, and the vast, vast majority do.

Whereas you have old blokes in mens changing rooms using the hairdryer on their balls right beside the sink. And that's a far bigger crime which has nothing to do with gender.

LineOfBeauty

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Clearly. I’ve rarely been in a leisure centre in Ireland that didn’t have sex-segregated changing rooms. In fact even in slightly more comfortable with nudity Iceland, the changing rooms I used were sex-segregated.

I once or twice used family cubicles with my father when I was kid. But once I hit preteen, I wanted privacy. And he was my father, not some randomer.

Odd, I'd say on a regular basis I go to one (and used to go to another) that was mixed. Even one I used to go to weekly in a different county were fine with a parent of another sex accompanying their kid into the changing room. Maybe I've just stumbled onto some oddly progressive, common sense leisure centre's in Ireland.

Brian?

Penn wrote: »

And that's always the issue everyone ignores when it comes to the toilet debate; if people should use the toilets based on their genitals or what gender they are biologically, trans men (with facial hair, short hair, no obvious breast, mens clothes) would have to use the women's toilets/changing rooms. So for those thinking sexual predators might dress up as women to get access to women's toilets if trans women are allowed to use them, sexual predators wouldn't even need to dress as women. They could just claim to be trans men. And if trans men are to use the women's toilets, then girls/women might not recognise that they may be in danger until it's too late, because they see a masculine person walk in and think "Must be a trans man..."

It should also be factored in to the discussion and lets take the 11 year old in the changing room as an example; what is the likelihood that she'd be in the changing room and the only other person in there is a trans woman? That there'd be no other women in there at all?

So what then? Only biological women use women's facilities, and men, trans men and trans women all use the mens?

I think it's important to note the simple reality that trans women already do use the women's facilities, most likely completely undetected. They go in, they use the facilities, keeping themselves to themselves, and they leave. They don't flash their genitalia around (which I'm told unlike those films I like tends not to happen with a room full of cisgender women either), they try not to make women feel uncomfortable, and they just go about their business. It already happens, it's not a new phenomena. The onus is on trans women to use the facilities correctly and not infringe on anyone else's comfort or safety, and the vast, vast majority do.

Whereas you have old blokes in mens changing rooms using the hairdryer on their balls right beside the sink. And that's a far bigger crime which has nothing to do with gender.

I gave my balls the hairdryer treatment once out of curiosity. I’d read about it so many times on boards I had to. Should I be locked up?

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

Exact figures no, but tell me, if you had to guess, which do you think happens more? Because, on that one I feel pretty confident I have the right answer and I think you know the answer too.

I don’t know the answer. How can I when I don’t have statistics? You don’t have them either. How can you know the answer?

I can pretty confidently say that transwomen would almost always be much stronger than natal women physically. So transwomen getting attacked doesn’t negate transwomen attacking women, however rare it might be.

Brian?

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

Odd, I'd say on a regular basis I go to one (and used to go to another) that was mixed. Even one I used to go to weekly in a different county were fine with a parent of another sex accompanying their kid into the changing room. Maybe I've just stumbled onto some oddly progressive, common sense leisure centre's in Ireland.

The leisure centre changing areas of 2020 are the modern day Sodom and Gomorrah.

LineOfBeauty

Penn wrote: »

And that's always the issue everyone ignores when it comes to the toilet debate; if people should use the toilets based on their genitals or what gender they are biologically, trans men (with facial hair, short hair, no obvious breast, mens clothes) would have to use the women's toilets/changing rooms. So for those thinking sexual predators might dress up as women to get access to women's toilets if trans women are allowed to use them, sexual predators wouldn't even need to dress as women. They could just claim to be trans men. And if trans men are to use the women's toilets, then girls/women might not recognise that they may be in danger until it's too late, because they see a masculine person walk in and think "Must be a trans man..."

It should also be factored in to the discussion and lets take the 11 year old in the changing room as an example; what is the likelihood that she'd be in the changing room and the only other person in there is a trans woman? That there'd be no other women in there at all?

So what then? Only biological women use women's facilities, and men, trans men and trans women all use the mens?

I think it's important to note the simple reality that trans women already do use the women's facilities, most likely completely undetected. They go in, they use the facilities, keeping themselves to themselves, and they leave. They don't flash their genitalia around (which I'm told unlike those films I like tends not to happen with a room full of cisgender women either), they try not to make women feel uncomfortable, and they just go about their business. It already happens, it's not a new phenomena. The onus is on trans women to use the facilities correctly and not infringe on anyone else's comfort or safety, and the vast, vast majority do.

Whereas you have old blokes in mens changing rooms using the hairdryer on their balls right beside the sink. And that's a far bigger crime which has nothing to do with gender.

Who are these sexual predators going to all this bother to attack women? Surely going in (loosely) dressed as a female would only heighten suspicion around the area while they are in there, no? If you are so concerned about sexual assault, maybe bars (where most public sexual assaults take place) should be divided based on gender? Maybe a man who is clearly pretending to be trans trying something in a ladies bathroom would be really dumb on his part. Maybe these silly hypotheticals are only ever conjured up by people who inherently hate transgender people.

Penn

Brian? wrote: »

I gave my balls the hairdryer treatment once out of curiosity. I’d read about it so many times on boards I had to. Should I be locked up?

Yes. People don't talk about it on Boards as a positive!

LineOfBeauty

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

I don’t know the answer. How can I when I don’t have statistics? You don’t have them either. How can you know the answer?

I can pretty confidently say that transwomen would almost always be much stronger than natal women physically. So transwomen getting attacked doesn’t negate transwomen attacking women, however rare it might be.

However rare it might be, very rare it seems. I think we can safely say trans people are overwhelmingly more likely to be attacked than to attack someone. You know it and I know it. That's not even to talk about how a culture of fear leads to massive increases in likelyhood to self-harm or commit suicide. That's a culture of hate that any decent person should want to eradicate.

Wibbs

Brian? wrote: »

What positions?

The reality of societies throughout history shows that today's immutable truth is tomorrows heresy. About the only constant one can be sure of is that most of what we know and hold dear today is likely wrong, or in serious need of updating down the line.

I have a feeling you’re projecting.

Observational aside: What the hell is it with some, especially "progressives" that they regularly fall back on this projection bollocks in debates? It's lazy and not a little stupid. Though maybe I'm projecting again. :rolleyes:

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

Odd, I'd say on a regular basis I go to one (and used to go to another) that was mixed. Even one I used to go to weekly in a different county were fine with a parent of another sex accompanying their kid into the changing room. Maybe I've just stumbled onto some oddly progressive, common sense leisure centre's in Ireland.

That’s different. Little boys are brought into female changing rooms and toilets by their mothers all the time. Nobody bats an eyelid at that. I can’t speak for male facilities but maybe people are grand with fathers bringing their daughter in with them to the men’s facilities too. Please use your common sense here. People bring their small children with them because they weigh it up and it’s considered safer than letting them off by themselves as they’re too young for that.