Jordan Peterson interview on C4

LineOfBeauty · 17-02-2020 05:26PM

Brian? wrote: »

The leisure centre changing areas of 2020 are the modern day Sodom and Gomorrah.

I'm genuinely interested in what experiences these people are having in their changing rooms that I am not, do I not stay in there long enough?

Wibbs · 17-02-2020 05:28PM

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

I can pretty confidently say that transwomen would almost always be much stronger than natal women physically.

Why are we pussyfooting around this newspeak ODB? "Natal women(or men)"? How about just women and men. Mad notion I grant you.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 17-02-2020 05:28PM

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

However rare it might be, very rare it seems. I think we can safely say trans people are overwhelmingly more likely to be attacked than to attack someone. You know it and I know it. That's not even to talk about how a culture of fear leads to massive increases in likelyhood to self-harm or commit suicide. That's a culture of hate that any decent person should want to eradicate.

No, we can’t say that. Men are far more likely to commit violent crimes and transwomen are biologically male.

LineOfBeauty · 17-02-2020 05:28PM

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

That’s different. Little boys are brought into female changing rooms and toilets by their mothers all the time. Nobody bats an eyelid at that. I can’t speak for male facilities but maybe people are grand with fathers bringing their daughter in with them to the men’s facilities too. Please use your common sense here.

My common sense? You are on this thread telling people that a big bloke with a wig is gonna go on a sex crazed rampage in womens bathrooms because of equal rights and that dressing rooms are hotbeds for flashers dressing up as women to scar the innocent minds of your children. All the while going on about a case of a trans person attacking a lady when trans people are among the most vulnerable in our society. That is a lesson from me to you in common sense.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 17-02-2020 05:29PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Why are we pussyfooting around this newspeak ODB? "Natal women(or men)"? How about just women and men. Mad notion I grant you.

It’s better than saying cis.

Penn · 17-02-2020 05:29PM

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

Who are these sexual predators going to all this bother to attack women? Surely going in (loosely) dressed as a female would only heighten suspicion around the area while they are in there, no? If you are so concerned about sexual assault, maybe bars (where most public sexual assaults take place) should be divided based on gender? Maybe a man who is clearly pretending to be trans trying something in a ladies bathroom would be really dumb on his part. Maybe these silly hypotheticals are only ever conjured up by people who inherently hate transgender people.

I agree entirely, and that's my point. The biggest argument they regularly throw up regarding protecting women/girls in public bathrooms from predators who would dress as a woman is so inherently flawed that it's just nonsense. As if the only thing currently stopping such predators from doing it is they respect the common courtesy that the toilets are for biological women only. And completely ignoring that the majority of trans women already use women's toilets without incident.

If a sexual predator wanted to attack a woman in a public toilet or changing room, they'd have to make sure they were unlikely to be interrupted, make sure they weren't seen, and make sure they didn't stand out. In that regard, the laws regarding whether or not trans women should be allowed to use women's toilets are completely irrelevant and would neither stop such an attack nor facilitate it.

It's using the premise of "protecting girls and women from sexual assault" as a mask for standing against trans rights.

Gynoid · 17-02-2020 05:30PM

My point in my so called "rants" is that the day you heterosexual male trans allies are open to, nay actually having sex with male bodied transwomen, and you homosexual male trans allies are open to, nay actually HAVING sex with female bodied trans men is the day I will say fair fcuks to ye, ye walk the talk. Until then I will presume that some people - a lot of them men - are telling women that they are bigots and phobic because thet will not accept the creed that Transwomen ARE women.

LineOfBeauty · 17-02-2020 05:30PM

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

No, we can’t say that. Men are far more likely to commit violent crimes and transwomen are biologically male.

So, according to you, transgender people don't exist? Or shouldn't be recognised?

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 17-02-2020 05:31PM

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

My common sense?You are on this thread telling people that a big bloke with a wig is gonna go on a sex crazed rampage in womens bathrooms because of equal rights and that dressing rooms are hotbeds for flashers dressing up as women to scar the innocent minds of your children. All the while going on about a case of a trans person attacking a lady when trans people are among the most vulnerable in our society. That is a lesson from me to you in common sense.

Sigh. This is why more and more people are becoming alienated. Actually, you know what? Carry on in this vein. You are doing transgender people no favours here.

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

So, according to you, transgender people don't exist? Or shouldn't be recognised?

Lol, wut? I’m saying that they retain most of the physical advantages of being biologically male. Why wouldn’t they?

Brian? · 17-02-2020 05:33PM

Wibbs wrote: »

The reality of societies throughout history shows that today's immutable truth is tomorrows heresy. About the only constant one can be sure of is that most of what we know and hold dear today is likely wrong, or in serious need of updating down the line.

What’s considered “common decency”doesn't really change though. Which is the only real position I hold. Which is why I asked “what positions”

Observational aside: What the hell is it with some, especially "progressives" that they regularly fall back on this projection bollocks in debates? It's lazy and not a little stupid. Though maybe I'm projecting again. :rolleyes:

I didn’t think we were having a debate. We’d actually agreed.

What I meant was that you were projecting beliefs/positions on to me that I may not hold. Because I am indeed progressively minded, it happens all the time. So I was wondering what you meant.

I’d appreciate an apology for accusing me of being lazy and stupid when I merely asked for clarification.

LineOfBeauty · 17-02-2020 05:33PM

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Sigh. This is why more and more people are becoming alienated. Actually, you know what? Carry on in this vein. You are doing transgender people no favours here.

Because when you dress it down your claims about transgender people let loose in toilets/changing rooms is utterly ludicrous and is a very clear dog whistle of transphobia?

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 17-02-2020 05:36PM

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

Because when you dress it down your claims about transgender people let loose in toilets/changing rooms is utterly ludicrous and is a very clear dog whistle of transphobia?

And there it is.

LineOfBeauty · 17-02-2020 05:39PM

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Sigh. This is why more and more people are becoming alienated. Actually, you know what? Carry on in this vein. You are doing transgender people no favours here.

Lol, wut? I’m saying that they retain most of the physical advantages of being biologically male. Why wouldn’t they?

So are you saying that things like homophobic or transphobic assault isn't a thing because they are attacking people who are "biologically male." Is that what you're saying?

LineOfBeauty · 17-02-2020 05:40PM

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

And there it is.

I've been saying your message is transphobic for like 6 pages of this thread. There it was a lot time ago.

Call Me Jimmy · 17-02-2020 05:40PM

Wibbs wrote: »

The reality of societies throughout history shows that today's immutable truth is tomorrows heresy. About the only constant one can be sure of is that most of what we know and hold dear today is likely wrong, or in serious need of updating down the line. Observational aside: What the hell is it with some, especially "progressives" that they regularly fall back on this projection bollocks in debates? It's lazy and not a little stupid. Though maybe I'm projecting again. :rolleyes:

It's intentional, it's a tactic. Just read a couple of posts, in almost every reply there is an attack (overt or implied) on the character of the person they disagree with. Note how rarely it is the other way around. Also by the time you get a reply, your lucky if your view isn't distorted out of all recognition and you haven't been deemed an angry hateful person. In fact each one of your posts probably qualify as Non Crime Hate Incidents.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 17-02-2020 05:42PM

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

So are you saying that things like homophobic or transphobic assault isn't a thing because they are attacking people who are "biologically male." Is that what you're saying?

Not at all. Firstly, of course transphobic and homophobic take place.

What I’m saying is this: men commit violent crime way more than women. If a man becomes a transgender woman, that doesn’t suddenly remove those biologically male characteristics that cause men to commit violent crime far more than women. Women opposed to trangender women using sex-segregated facilities don’t think transgender women will be more violent than men. They think they’ll be on a par with men.

LineOfBeauty · 17-02-2020 05:47PM

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Not at all. Firstly, of course transphobic and homophobic take place.

What I’m saying is this: men commit violent crime way more than women. If a man becomes a transgender woman, that doesn’t suddenly remove those biologically male characteristics that cause men to commit violent crime far more than women. Women opposed to trangender women using sex-segregated facilities don’t think transgender women will be more violent than men. They think they’ll be on a par with men.

Are you making an anti men argument? And isn't it very simple in this hypothetical situation you've created to simply divide your men into two groups (trans men and non trans men) and then see which group has committed more crimes against women on average? Wait, what am I talking about? Of course that's possible to do, and of course you already know the answer, just like I do.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 17-02-2020 05:56PM

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

Are you making an anti men argument? And isn't it very simple in this hypothetical situation you've created to simply divide your men into two groups (trans men and non trans men) and then see which group has committed more crimes against women on average? Wait, what am I talking about? Of course that's possible to do, and of course you already know the answer, just like I do.

If saying that men commit violent crime way more than women is anti-men then... yeah?

LineOfBeauty, do you have any statistics? I don’t. Do you? The useful stats would be what percentage of men and what percentage of transwomen have been violent against women. Because naturally, there’ll be more men than transwomen in numbers committing assaults because there are more men. The useful metric would be percentage.

LineOfBeauty · 17-02-2020 05:57PM

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

If saying that men commit violent crime way more than women is anti-men then... yeah?

Then what's your solution? If trans men commit less crimes than cis men, maybe us cis men are the problem?

LineOfBeauty · 17-02-2020 06:02PM

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

If saying that men commit violent crime way more than women is anti-men then... yeah?

LineOfBeauty, do you have any statistics? I don’t. Do you?

I don't, I've entered into this based purely on common sense. With a simple google, first result I found though says in a study performed in 2010 it seemed to be that trans men were less than half more likely to commit homicide than cis men. To me that seems a little high but I've put literally the most minimal amount of effort in possible (one google search and the first result that popped up) and that's what I found.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 17-02-2020 06:02PM

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

Then what's your solution? If trans men commit less crimes than cis men, maybe us cis men are the problem?

Do transgender women less frequently commit violent crimes than men? Like what percentage of transwomen commit violent crimes? And what percentage of men?

LineOfBeauty · 17-02-2020 06:04PM

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Do transgender women less frequently commit violent crimes than men? Like what percentage of transwomen commit violent crimes? And what percentage of men?

As the person advocating for treating someone as a second class citizen based on this entirely unfounded assertion that trans people are all violent maniacs waiting to be unleashed in gender specific bathrooms, I think the onus is very much on you to provide statistics that prove your points.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 17-02-2020 06:09PM

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

As the person advocating for treating someone as a second class citizen based on this entirely unfounded assertion that trans people are all violent maniacs waiting to be unleashed in gender specific bathrooms, I think the onus is very much on you to provide statistics that prove your points.

Do you think male strength goes away once somebody changes gender? Do you really need to see a peer-reviewed study on that?

I don’t think asking to remain sex-segregated spaces is treating anybody second class, to be honest. Indeed, it’s asking women to capitulate. Who’s treating who as second class here? Rights and needs are colliding.

LineOfBeauty · 17-02-2020 06:13PM

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Do you think male strength goes away once somebody changes gender? Do you really need to see a peer-reviewed study on that?

I don’t think asking to remain sex-segregated spaces is treating anybody second class, to be honest. Indeed, it’s asking women to capitulate. Whose treating who as second class here?

But do you think transgender men are more likely to commit physicauly assault than cis men? Because my very minimal google and my mass basic common sense would indicate otherwise.

Again I'd love to know what it is with you right wingers and toilets? My college has a unisex toilet, one of my locals has a unisex toilet, the bar I go to after work has a unisex toilet, the leisure centre I go to has unisex changing rooms. Nobody, as of yet, has exploded from a case of "PC gone mad"

Is your sole issue with transgender people bathrooms/changing rooms?

Gynoid · 17-02-2020 06:15PM

What have trans people ever done to you, they ask?
Nothing, I say.
But the crazy gender ideology that extremist trans activists and allies promote has
Attempted to make mother an illegitimate word. Sinn Fein argued that pregnant people be used in the abortion law in deference to trans. Cut out woman or mother.
Attempted to change language, chest feeding instead of breast feeding in official health literature, cervix owner instead of woman.
Brought in unscientific sex ed programs in school which teach that gender is a spectrum and that some people may be born in the wrong body, a terrible thing to teach
Supported the social tranaitioning of extremely young children, in effect sexualising them
Pushed for the outrageous medical intervention in healthy childrens body to affirm their gender "identity"
Taken sports awards and achievements from girls.
Taken scholarships from girls.
Enabled women to be raped by TIMs in prisons in the UK and globally. Likewise in rape shelters women have been raped.
Almost all sexual assaults in changing facilities in the UK take place in Unisex spaces.

I could go on but that is enough collateral damage for me. Because that is essentially what we are supposed to accept - as much collateral damage as allies deem acceptable.

Here is your fringe of the fringe. There seems to be an awful lot of sh1theads considering "that never happens" -
https://www.womenarehuman.com/

LineOfBeauty · 17-02-2020 06:15PM

Anyway I'm finished work and I've talked almost as much today about transgender people as a common Jordan Peterson subscriber does on a daily basis (basically too much).

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 17-02-2020 06:17PM

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

But do you think transgender men are more likely to commit physicauly assault than cis men? Because my very minimal google and my mass basic common sense would indicate otherwise.

Again I'd love to know what it is with you right wingers and toilets? My college has a unisex toilet, one of my locals has a unisex toilet, the bar I go to after work has a unisex toilet, the leisure centre I go to has unisex changing rooms. Nobody, as of yet, has exploded from a case of "PC gone mad"

Is your sole issue with transgender people bathrooms/changing rooms?

LineOfBeauty, I’m left-wing. Where do I fit in?

Penn · 17-02-2020 06:18PM

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Do you think male strength goes away once somebody changes gender?

I'm pretty sure it does, to an extent. Hormone Replacement Therapy results in reduced muscle mass (or quicker to reduce if the normal workout regime isn't maintained)

LineOfBeauty · 17-02-2020 06:19PM

Gynoid wrote: »

What have trans people ever done to you, they ask?
Nothing, I say.
But the crazy gender ideology that extremist trans activists and allies promote has
Attempted to make mother an illegitimate word. Sinn Fein argued that pregnant people be used in the abortion law in deference to trans. Cut out woman or mother.
Attempted to change language, chest feeding instead of breast feeding in official health literature, cervix owner instead of woman.
Brought in unscientific sex ed programs in school which teach that gender is a spectrum and that some people may be born in the wrong body, a terrible thing to teach
Supported the social tranaitioning of extremely young children, in effect sexualising them
Pushed for the outrageous medical intervention in healthy childrens body to affirm their gender "identity"
Taken sports awards and achievements from girls.
Taken scholarships from girls.
Enabled women to be raped by TIMs in prisons in the UK and globally. Likewise in rape shelters women have been raped.
Almost all sexual assaults in changing facilities in the UK take place in Unisex spaces.

I could go on but that is enough collateral damage for me. Because that is essentially what we are supposed to accept - as much collateral damage as allies deem acceptable.

Here is your fringe of the fringe. There seems to be an awful lot of sh1theads considering "that never happens" -
https://www.womenarehuman.com/

I'm done for posting today but quick one for tomorrow because your points are either wrong or misleading but I'd love to know, of the people arguing against trans rights on this thread, how many of them are straight? How many of them are white? How many of them are male? It's odd because on these threads you see pop up here and on social media, the great white knights for women usually tick all 3 of those boxes. And when an actual womens rights (feminism) topic crops up, all of a sudden they are back to hating on women. It's so weird how that works.

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 17-02-2020 06:20PM

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

Again I'd love to know what it is with you right wingers and toilets? My college has a unisex toilet, one of my locals has a unisex toilet, the bar I go to after work has a unisex toilet, the leisure centre I go to has unisex changing rooms.

Unisex Changing Rooms Put Women at Danger of Sexual Assault, Data Reveals — The Independent

The vast majority of reported sexual assaults at public swimming pools in the UK take place in unisex changing rooms, new statistics reveal.

The data, obtained through a Freedom of Information request by the Sunday Times, suggests that unisex changing rooms are more dangerous for women and girls than single-sex facilities.

Just under 90 per cent of complaints regarding changing room sexual assaults, voyeurism and harassment are about incidents in unisex facilities.

What’s more, two thirds of all sexual attacks at leisure centres and public swimming pools take place in unisex changing rooms.

Of 134 complaints over 2017-2018, 120 reported incidents took place in gender-neutral changing rooms and just 14 were in single-sex changing areas.

But sure, keep on pretending that alarmist "right wingers" are making all this up.

Jordan Peterson interview on C4

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