Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

Bogwoppit wrote: »

I see Ringrose becoming the next captain over Ryan, he has the ability and leadership skills to do it and along with Ryan is probably the only guaranteed starter.

I do find this very interesting. I think Ringrose has the mentality and demeanor to make a decent captain. Same goes for Tadgh.

Would always prefer a forward or a 9 to be the captain where possible.

A 10 and 13 already have enough responsibilities to organise the backs without the decision making burden of captaincy.

Genuinely can’t think of any excellent captains that played at 10 or 13. And I include great players like Wilkinson and BOD.

Larbre34 wrote: »

Annnnnnnnnnnnnnyway.

O’Mahony

Can't say I'm not worried about the post-Schmidt era. He's the best coach we've ever had and our greatest ever successes have come during his tenure. At our best we were ultra disciplined and precise in attack. It wasn't always the most entertaining, but it was extremely successful for a long time. I wonder if Farrell will go into the same detail that Schmidt did in order to drill that discipline into the side.

Larbre34 wrote: »

Annnnnnnnnnnnnnyway.

O'Driscoll on OTB there this evening making the very plausible argument that this Ireland squad, in particular the forward pack, is lacking a toerag, a thug, a hothead, a grappler, a street-fighter, an instigator, a lunatic, an enforcer, an agent provocateur.

Do we agree? If so do we see a Bakkies, a Burger, a Cudmore, a Johnson or even an O'Connell emerging from within this group? Will we need a physical talisman, a colossus to cause aggro in London and Paris?

No.

It's incredible how quickly the game evolves. BOD only retired in 2013 and already you can see what worked in "his day", vs. today.

Successful packs are going to be increasingly built around players with athleticism and skill. In attack, beating defenders with power (if possible) or else some combination of footwork, speed, and running good lines. Fixing defenders and passing; offloading in the tackle; moving the point of attack. Precision and timing with clearouts. In defense, athleticism to blitz for 80 minutes, timing to stay onside, precision to take down big ball carriers with good technique, etc.

Of course they'll need to be tough as nails, and master their set piece duties on top of all of this. But some specific requirement for a "toerag" to cause aggravation will become increasingly dated.

Neil3030 wrote: »

No.

It's incredible how quickly the game evolves. BOD only retired in 2013 and already you can see what worked in "his day", vs. today.

Successful packs are going to be increasingly built around players with athleticism and skill. In attack, beating defenders with power (if possible) or else some combination of footwork, speed, and running good lines. Fixing defenders and passing; offloading in the tackle; moving the point of attack. Precision and timing with clearouts. In defense, athleticism to blitz for 80 minutes, timing to stay onside, precision to take down big ball carriers with good technique, etc.

Of course they'll need to be tough as nails, and master their set piece duties on top of all of this. But some specific requirement for a "toerag" to cause aggravation will become increasingly dated.

I disagree. You still need to win the physical battle to win games more often than not. A stray boot, or forearm can sometimes soften the opposition up a bit. Look at how teams target Sexton with late hits. It used to happen to ROG a lot as well. You definitely still need a bit of bastardness in your team to shake the opposition up.

It's a fine line between toughness (which will always be required) and bastardness (which is of increasingly less value).

E.g., are teams targeting Sexton as much as they used to target ROG?

Are there as many stray boots, forearms etc being used to soften people up?

It’s not about stray boots or forearms, because they get picked up by TMO’s and citing officers and can have big consequences.

It’s about the type of player who doesn’t just look to make a technically efficient tackle Because that’s what the stats demand, but uses the opportunity of a tackle to shake someone’s insides, clearing out at a ruck in a way that Makes opposition think twice about going into the next one. It’s about using every ounce of power and size when the opportunity to Legally hit the oppositions 10 presents itself.

Playing like Will Skelton has in the last few months brings sin binnings, but if you can bring his aggression and eliminate some of his foul play then you have it. There is a difference between a cheap shot and a good shot.

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Yes Sexton is constantly targeted.

And foul play around the rucks is still a huge part of the game. Holding people into the ruck, preventing the fold etc, teams still hugely value players who can do that while also being productive. Stray boots and forearms haven't been a big thing for a long long time. Nathan Hines hardly did any of that nasty stuff but was one of the most effective players in that mould to ever play on this island.

None of those actions are those of a toerag, thug, hothead, etc. Which was the characteristic BOD said the squad is supposedly lacking.

lawrencesummers wrote: »

It’s not about stray boots or forearms, because they get picked up by TMO’s and citing officers and can have big consequences.

It’s about the type of player who doesn’t just look to make a technically efficient tackle Because that’s what the stats demand, but uses the opportunity of a tackle to shake someone’s insides, clearing out at a ruck in a way that Makes opposition think twice about going into the next one. It’s about using every ounce of power and size when the opportunity to Legally hit the oppositions 10 presents itself.

Playing like Will Skelton has in the last few months brings sin binnings, but if you can bring his aggression and eliminate some of his foul play then you have it. There is a difference between a cheap shot and a good shot.

And again here. This isn't toerag behaviour; hard but clean hits will always be part if the game.

Is there any difference between Leamy and Stander's attitude? Other than Leamy having a redder face?

And James Ryan is more physical than any angry looking player that came before him. Its utter nonsense. I doubt Doris lacks any 'dog' either.

Larbre34 wrote: »

Annnnnnnnnnnnnnyway.

O'Driscoll on OTB there this evening making the very plausible argument that this Ireland squad, in particular the forward pack, is lacking a toerag, a thug, a hothead, a grappler, a street-fighter, an instigator, a lunatic, an enforcer, an agent provocateur.

Do we agree? If so do we see a Bakkies, a Burger, a Cudmore, a Johnson or even an O'Connell emerging from within this group? Will we need a physical talisman, a colossus to cause aggro in London and Paris?

I would argue that most Irish players are from well off backgrounds and this doesn't feed into the perception that they can go out and do a job in tough circumstances. Munster used to have a few players who were dogged but Leinster lack that in place of statistical robots. It has also removed all creativity from the game.

They are too into game analysis rather than the things that strike fear into an opposition. Things like hitting rucks, lying on top of players and squashing them when on the ground, pointing out your opposition number in the defensive line and calling him out that you are going to hammer him in a tackle.

The modern player in Ireland and indeed the game in general globally has turned into an apology of physical dominance. You can't lift a player and put him on his ar5e in the tackle. You can't do a shoulder high no arms hit which used to level players. The sting has gone out of the game which suits the the well heeled perceptions and reality of players playing the game.

Bring back the old days and you'll see a few more bruisers in the game.

AdamD wrote: »

Is there any difference between Leamy and Stander's attitude? Other than Leamy having a redder face?

And James Ryan is more physical than any angry looking player that came before him. Its utter nonsense. I doubt Doris lacks any 'dog' either.

If you had a choice between getting into an argument with leamy in his prime or CJ ?

I know Who I would pick.

Ferris could still do a job of enforcer...still only 34..