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Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

[Deleted User]

Continued from here
https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057953711/251
All Ireland Senior XV related talk here.

MOD: Bear in mind this thread is starting during the World Cup window and the zero tolerance policy is in force. Trolling will be rewarded with an instant ban. For the duration of the tournament any mention of Zebo in this thread will not be permitted, it is just dragging current Ireland squad talk off topic.

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ionadnapóca

yerrahbah wrote: »

Earls is still Irelands best winger according to Drico, not sure how I feel about that

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNOszVposl0

In training!

ionadnapóca

Larbre34 wrote: »

Annnnnnnnnnnnnnyway.

O’Mahony

[Deleted User]

ionadnapokot wrote: »

O’Mahony

Ehhh, no.

Clegg

Can't say I'm not worried about the post-Schmidt era. He's the best coach we've ever had and our greatest ever successes have come during his tenure. At our best we were ultra disciplined and precise in attack. It wasn't always the most entertaining, but it was extremely successful for a long time. I wonder if Farrell will go into the same detail that Schmidt did in order to drill that discipline into the side.

prawnsambo

Clegg wrote: »

Can't say I'm not worried about the post-Schmidt era. He's the best coach we've ever had and our greatest ever successes have come during his tenure. At our best we were ultra disciplined and precise in attack. It wasn't always the most entertaining, but it was extremely successful for a long time. I wonder if Farrell will go into the same detail that Schmidt did in order to drill that discipline into the side.

It's always difficult with a national squad. You only have them for relatively short periods of time and they go back to their clubs and do things differently there, so it's always a change of focus for players. Joe had gone as far as he could and it was time for a change. I suspect we may see a kind of unified approach across the provinces so that there's less of a learning curve between club and country. Certainly hope that's the next step anyway.

Neil3030

Larbre34 wrote: »

Annnnnnnnnnnnnnyway.

O'Driscoll on OTB there this evening making the very plausible argument that this Ireland squad, in particular the forward pack, is lacking a toerag, a thug, a hothead, a grappler, a street-fighter, an instigator, a lunatic, an enforcer, an agent provocateur.

Do we agree? If so do we see a Bakkies, a Burger, a Cudmore, a Johnson or even an O'Connell emerging from within this group? Will we need a physical talisman, a colossus to cause aggro in London and Paris?

No.

It's incredible how quickly the game evolves. BOD only retired in 2013 and already you can see what worked in "his day", vs. today.

Successful packs are going to be increasingly built around players with athleticism and skill. In attack, beating defenders with power (if possible) or else some combination of footwork, speed, and running good lines. Fixing defenders and passing; offloading in the tackle; moving the point of attack. Precision and timing with clearouts. In defense, athleticism to blitz for 80 minutes, timing to stay onside, precision to take down big ball carriers with good technique, etc.

Of course they'll need to be tough as nails, and master their set piece duties on top of all of this. But some specific requirement for a "toerag" to cause aggravation will become increasingly dated.

irishbucsfan

Neil3030 wrote: »

No.

It's incredible how quickly the game evolves. BOD only retired in 2013 and already you can see what worked in "his day", vs. today.

Successful packs are going to be increasingly built around players with athleticism and skill. In attack, beating defenders with power (if possible) or else some combination of footwork, speed, and running good lines. Fixing defenders and passing; offloading in the tackle; moving the point of attack. Precision and timing with clearouts. In defense, athleticism to blitz for 80 minutes, timing to stay onside, precision to take down big ball carriers with good technique, etc.

Of course they'll need to be tough as nails, and master their set piece duties on top of all of this. But some specific requirement for a "toerag" to cause aggravation will become increasingly dated.

What is this based on?

bilston

Neil3030 wrote: »

No.

It's incredible how quickly the game evolves. BOD only retired in 2013 and already you can see what worked in "his day", vs. today.

Successful packs are going to be increasingly built around players with athleticism and skill. In attack, beating defenders with power (if possible) or else some combination of footwork, speed, and running good lines. Fixing defenders and passing; offloading in the tackle; moving the point of attack. Precision and timing with clearouts. In defense, athleticism to blitz for 80 minutes, timing to stay onside, precision to take down big ball carriers with good technique, etc.

Of course they'll need to be tough as nails, and master their set piece duties on top of all of this. But some specific requirement for a "toerag" to cause aggravation will become increasingly dated.

I disagree. You still need to win the physical battle to win games more often than not. A stray boot, or forearm can sometimes soften the opposition up a bit. Look at how teams target Sexton with late hits. It used to happen to ROG a lot as well. You definitely still need a bit of bastardness in your team to shake the opposition up.

thebaz

Neil3030 wrote: »

It's incredible how quickly the game evolves. BOD only retired in 2013 and already you can see what worked in "his day", vs. today.

Successful packs are going to be increasingly built around players with athleticism and skill. I

The game has completly changed since Dricos day - its all video anaysis/replay/citing now and tut tuting any form of a punch up, and most of the very dirty play is gone too .
Dont miss the real nasty stuff, but I do miss the odd punch up.

Neil3030

It's a fine line between toughness (which will always be required) and bastardness (which is of increasingly less value).

E.g., are teams targeting Sexton as much as they used to target ROG?

Are there as many stray boots, forearms etc being used to soften people up?

irishbucsfan

Neil3030 wrote: »

It's a fine line between toughness (which will always be required) and bastardness (which is of increasingly less value).

E.g., are teams targeting Sexton as much as they used to target ROG?

Are there as many stray boots, forearms etc being used to soften people up?

Yes Sexton is constantly targeted.

And foul play around the rucks is still a huge part of the game. Holding people into the ruck, preventing the fold etc, teams still hugely value players who can do that while also being productive. Stray boots and forearms haven't been a big thing for a long long time. Nathan Hines hardly did any of that nasty stuff but was one of the most effective players in that mould to ever play on this island.

lawrencesummers

It’s not about stray boots or forearms, because they get picked up by TMO’s and citing officers and can have big consequences.

It’s about the type of player who doesn’t just look to make a technically efficient tackle Because that’s what the stats demand, but uses the opportunity of a tackle to shake someone’s insides, clearing out at a ruck in a way that Makes opposition think twice about going into the next one. It’s about using every ounce of power and size when the opportunity to Legally hit the oppositions 10 presents itself.

Playing like Will Skelton has in the last few months brings sin binnings, but if you can bring his aggression and eliminate some of his foul play then you have it. There is a difference between a cheap shot and a good shot.

aloooof

lawrencesummers wrote: »

It’s not about stray boots or forearms, because they get picked up by TMO’s and citing officers and can have big consequences.

It’s about the type of player who doesn’t just look to make a technically efficient tackle Because that’s what the stats demand, but uses the opportunity of a tackle to shake someone’s insides, clearing out at a ruck in a way that Makes opposition think twice about going into the next one. It’s about using every ounce of power and size when the opportunity to Legally hit the oppositions 10 presents itself.

Playing like Will Skelton has in the last few months brings sin binnings, but if you can bring his aggression and eliminate some of his foul play then you have it. There is a difference between a cheap shot and a good shot.

And therein lies the limitation of stats; all tackles are not made equal.

Neil3030

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Yes Sexton is constantly targeted.

And foul play around the rucks is still a huge part of the game. Holding people into the ruck, preventing the fold etc, teams still hugely value players who can do that while also being productive. Stray boots and forearms haven't been a big thing for a long long time. Nathan Hines hardly did any of that nasty stuff but was one of the most effective players in that mould to ever play on this island.

None of those actions are those of a toerag, thug, hothead, etc. Which was the characteristic BOD said the squad is supposedly lacking.

lawrencesummers wrote: »

It’s not about stray boots or forearms, because they get picked up by TMO’s and citing officers and can have big consequences.

It’s about the type of player who doesn’t just look to make a technically efficient tackle Because that’s what the stats demand, but uses the opportunity of a tackle to shake someone’s insides, clearing out at a ruck in a way that Makes opposition think twice about going into the next one. It’s about using every ounce of power and size when the opportunity to Legally hit the oppositions 10 presents itself.

Playing like Will Skelton has in the last few months brings sin binnings, but if you can bring his aggression and eliminate some of his foul play then you have it. There is a difference between a cheap shot and a good shot.

And again here. This isn't toerag behaviour; hard but clean hits will always be part if the game.

lawrencesummers

Sexton isn’t “targeted”

He’s a player on the field like any other and when he has the ball the name of the game is to tackle him. People mix up sextons approach of playing on the gain line which brings advantages (and made him the best player in the world at one stage) with getting hit hard in possesion

We would expect the very same from our players if Finn Russell every came to the gain line, but he doesn’t he stays away from it. Avoids it like it’s a bottle of pop.

Podge_irl

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Sexton isn’t “targeted”

He’s a player on the field like any other and when he has the ball the name of the game is to tackle him. People mix up sextons approach of playing on the gain line which brings advantages (and made him the best player in the world at one stage) with getting hit hard in possesion

We would expect the very same from our players if Finn Russell every came to the gain line, but he doesn’t he stays away from it. Avoids it like it’s a bottle of pop.

Sexton is absolutely, 100% targeted. Yes he brings the ball to the line, just opening himself up to it, but there is many a slightly late hit where the tackler would have pulled out had it not been Sexton carrying the ball. That's just how it is.

Former Former

Neil3030 wrote: »

None of those actions are those of a toerag, thug, hothead, etc. Which was the characteristic BOD said the squad is supposedly lacking.

He didn't really though. He was more talking about the lack of a really physical hard edge in the pack, about not taking a backward step more than going out trying to be dirty.

He cited O'Brien and Leamy as the sort of guys that he played with who had the mean streak that he thinks is lacking. I think he's right to be honest.

[Deleted User]

Is there any difference between Leamy and Stander's attitude? Other than Leamy having a redder face?

And James Ryan is more physical than any angry looking player that came before him. Its utter nonsense. I doubt Doris lacks any 'dog' either.

irishbucsfan

Former Former wrote: »

He didn't really though. He was more talking about the lack of a really physical hard edge in the pack, about not taking a backward step more than going out trying to be dirty.

He cited O'Brien and Leamy as the sort of guys that he played with who had the mean streak that he thinks is lacking. I think he's right to be honest.

Yes I can definitely see that.

A lot of that has to happen off the ball due to the basic nature of rugby but it doesn’t have to be “foul play”. I think there’s a huge gap there now for someone to step into, I’m absolutely 100% sure Ryan has the physical presence, brains and work rare to become that player. It is always, as far as I remember from any player who excelled in that area at the highest level, a product of experience though.

Granny15

Larbre34 wrote: »

Annnnnnnnnnnnnnyway.

O'Driscoll on OTB there this evening making the very plausible argument that this Ireland squad, in particular the forward pack, is lacking a toerag, a thug, a hothead, a grappler, a street-fighter, an instigator, a lunatic, an enforcer, an agent provocateur.

Do we agree? If so do we see a Bakkies, a Burger, a Cudmore, a Johnson or even an O'Connell emerging from within this group? Will we need a physical talisman, a colossus to cause aggro in London and Paris?

I would argue that most Irish players are from well off backgrounds and this doesn't feed into the perception that they can go out and do a job in tough circumstances. Munster used to have a few players who were dogged but Leinster lack that in place of statistical robots. It has also removed all creativity from the game.

They are too into game analysis rather than the things that strike fear into an opposition. Things like hitting rucks, lying on top of players and squashing them when on the ground, pointing out your opposition number in the defensive line and calling him out that you are going to hammer him in a tackle.

The modern player in Ireland and indeed the game in general globally has turned into an apology of physical dominance. You can't lift a player and put him on his ar5e in the tackle. You can't do a shoulder high no arms hit which used to level players. The sting has gone out of the game which suits the the well heeled perceptions and reality of players playing the game.

Bring back the old days and you'll see a few more bruisers in the game.

[Deleted User]

AdamD wrote: »

Is there any difference between Leamy and Stander's attitude? Other than Leamy having a redder face?

And James Ryan is more physical than any angry looking player that came before him. Its utter nonsense. I doubt Doris lacks any 'dog' either.

He's reeling off lads he played with. He's never played with Ryan or very limited with Furlong, or any of the hookers in the squad, or Doris or Stander. The SOB he played with is in the conversation as our best forward of the pro era so it's hardly a revelation to say that player would improve the pack. He hasn't been that player for a good while though.

lawrencesummers

AdamD wrote: »

Is there any difference between Leamy and Stander's attitude? Other than Leamy having a redder face?

And James Ryan is more physical than any angry looking player that came before him. Its utter nonsense. I doubt Doris lacks any 'dog' either.

If you had a choice between getting into an argument with leamy in his prime or CJ ?

I know Who I would pick.

Former Former

AdamD wrote: »

Is there any difference between Leamy and Stander's attitude? Other than Leamy having a redder face?

And James Ryan is more physical than any angry looking player that came before him. Its utter nonsense. I doubt Doris lacks any 'dog' either.

I would never have put Stander in the same category as Leamy in terms of abrasiveness to be honest. Nor would I have said James Ryan was a 'dog' of a second row either.

Maybe the game has just moved on, maybe O'Driscoll just isn't as familiar with these guys having not played with them (which he acknowledged himself), but I could see where he's coming from.

aloooof

My perception of the closest we have to that now is probably Leavy.

Paul Smeenus

We didn't have any "dog" when we were all-conquering throughout 2018. The issue isn't a lack of hardmen, it's players getting older and Joe's coaching not moving on last year. A good, abrasive character is fun in terms of getting behind your team - it doesn't necessarily do much to win games.

Podge_irl

Leamy and DOC's aggression didn't exactly come up trumps in that '07 game against Argentina. It was, in fact, a massive liability as they got so bloody riled up trying to get at Contepomi.

stephen_n

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Yes I can definitely see that.

A lot of that has to happen off the ball due to the basic nature of rugby but it doesn’t have to be “foul play”. I think there’s a huge gap there now for someone to step into, I’m absolutely 100% sure Ryan has the physical presence, brains and work rare to become that player. It is always, as far as I remember from any player who excelled in that area at the highest level, a product of experience though.

Fardy does it for Leinster and to an extent recently so does Moloney. The ability to play on the edge and physically impose yourself. Think Joe was so concerned with Discipline that it wasn’t something he wanted in the team though.

Utah_Saint

Ferris could still do a job of enforcer...still only 34..

kilns

Its silly stuff really, there is no place for guys like this in the game anymore. Id rather a guy who can physically imposed himself lawfully and not be outmuscled in defensive situations but can keep their discipline rather than one of these "dogs" who cross the line, give away silly penalties, get stupid yellow cards because they are so "tough" and ultimately end up losing the game for your team

DelBoy Trotter

For those of you who don't venture into the Bargain Alerts forum....Elverys are selling the current Irish jersey for 35 quid at the moment