Domestic solar PV quotes 2018

garo · 22-01-2020 01:30PM

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

How does a switch-disconnect that is not to be used as a switch under load help to prevent problems in an emergency in a commonly flammable gaseous environment?

What is the difference between a switch-disconnect and a no-load isolator?

It is there to tick a box. Not to actually offer any meaningful protection. A true DC switch disconnector that would do the job under load without arcing would be expensive ~ 200€. SEAI should ideally insist on those even if it drives up install costs a little bit. But they don’t.

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

I received a quote of €6750 for the installation of a kit I could buy myself from a resident supplier for €1785 (before installer discount)...

...is it a home owner grant or an affiliated installer grant?

Why I could install the same system on a ground mount for €2000.

Why do I get a better deal to not accept the PV grant?

You know the answer to that question as well as I do. It is first and foremost an installer grant. If you have the ability and the time, going self install is the cheapest way. But most of us don’t have the know how so we continue to let SEAI subsidise installers.

garo · 22-01-2020 01:34PM

wexfordman2 wrote: »

2.2kwp of solar with 4.8kwh battery ?

Sounds an odd setup, did the explain why a battery twice the size of your solar capacity was the way to go ?

What is the min charge/discharge rate of the battery, and what size is the inverter ?

Agreed that is an odd setup. Any reason why you are only getting 7 panels? Is it because of planning permission issues? If so note the case of the woman who appealed and won her case in court.

22-01-2020 07:12PM

garo wrote: »

It is there to tick a box. Not to actually offer any meaningful protection. A true DC switch disconnector that would do the job under load without arcing would be expensive ~ 200€. SEAI should ideally insist on those even if it drives up install costs a little bit. But they don’t.

You know the answer to that question as well as I do. It is first and foremost an installer grant. If you have the ability and the time, going self install is the cheapest way. But most of us don’t have the know how so we continue to let SEAI subsidise installers.

Albright make rated disconnects for the same price as three phase fuse carraiges so that doesn't hold any water for me.
Sadly the rates they are charging post subsidy are in excess of the going rate by a factor of 2. Spare me the driving up costs claim. Justify a €4.5k mark up on a straightforward one day install they copied from their child's colouring book.
What happened to €1.20 per watt installed? A princely sum when compared to the mainland in its own right.

No battery coupled system is a good deal because adding a battery increases payback time beyond the life expectancy of the installation for grid tie.

The SEAI can't certify the installations because they clearly don't understand their own requirements.eg. show me a B-type RCD in a signed off system because every other page of the installer notes stipulates the requirement of one.

22-01-2020 07:19PM

I think people would be amazed at the difference in installation price when recruiting non-SEAI-affiliated registered installers.

Shefwedfan · 22-01-2020 08:44PM

Finally think my installation will be up and running tomorrow so I will see how it goes

Few issues with trip switch etc I had to fix before they would give cert

Zenith74 · 22-01-2020 08:51PM

Mine went live last week: 4.8kW E/W panels, 4.8kWh battery, EDDI. Was excited to see all the generation and battery charging happening over the sunny weekend, then it all came crashing down with the last few dull days :-).

pale rider · 22-01-2020 09:51PM

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Finally think my installation will be up and running tomorrow so I will see how it goes

Few issues with trip switch etc I had to fix before they would give cert

My trip switch at the fuse board continues to trigger knocking out the whole system and rendering the install useless, a higher rated trip switch was installed to no avail, it is a Solax inverter, curious if it's happening elsewhere and if there is a known permanent fix that people could share.

Zenith74 · 22-01-2020 10:41PM

pale rider wrote: »

My trip switch at the fuse board continues to trigger knocking out the whole system and rendering the install useless, a higher rated trip switch was installed to no avail, it is a Solax inverter, curious if it's happening elsewhere and if there is a known permanent fix that people could share.

Might be worth posting some details about your solar setup and the exact trip switch model/size to see if anybody has thoughts?

Nermal · 22-01-2020 10:41PM

wexfordman2 wrote: »

2.2kwp of solar with 4.8kwh battery ?

Sounds an odd setup, did the explain why a battery twice the size of your solar capacity was the way to go ?

What is the min charge/discharge rate of the battery, and what size is the inverter ?

Perhaps they have a bunch of batteries to get rid of!

I think the charge rate is at https://www.moixa.com/solar-battery/features-benefits/ but I'm not sure how it's expressed:

"Input nominal 2kW AC max (variable).
Output nominal 2.4kW AC max (variable).
Total capacity 4.8kWh, usable capacity 3.84kWh.
Around 6,000 cycles at 80% depth of discharge.
Fully charged at 54V, fully discharged at 45V."

How does that come into play? No children and are both working, so most of the time it will be morning & evening use only. Looking at bills, using 3,840 kWh per year. No immersion diverter - never use it, have an electric shower.

I'm assuming the inverter is probably the minimum required scaled to the panels - there's a couple in the promo material but a particular one isn't specified in the quote.

I get the impression it's a quote to minimise expenditure and maximise the grant. There's space for more panels.

unkel · 23-01-2020 12:02AM

Nermal wrote: »

I get the impression it's a quote to minimise expenditure and maximise the grant.

You're wrong there. To maximise the grant and keep expenditure to a minimum, you need to get 4kwp of panels installed.

Get another quote with above and see how they compare...

23-01-2020 02:57AM

unkel wrote: »

You're wrong there. To maximise the grant and keep expenditure to a minimum, you need to get 4kwp of panels installed.

You're wrong there. To maximise the grant and keep expenditure to a minimum get 2.3kWp..if we're talking money in your pocket not on paper (fabricated projection sheet).

Seen much uptake of domestic batteries in any other country? We're among the worst in Europe for solar.

total-solar-power-by-country-leaders-per-capita-e1371899100303.png

total-solar-power-by-country-leaders-per-capita-e1371899100303.png

Result in!
SEAI are reversing the tide by reinventing the wheel.

pale rider wrote: »

My trip switch at the fuse board continues to trigger knocking out the whole system and rendering the install useless, a higher rated trip switch was installed to no avail, it is a Solax inverter, curious if it's happening elsewhere and if there is a known permanent fix that people could share.

The correct proceedure to eliminate fault alarms of a system is not to increase the fault alarm threshold of the system.

Isolate the inverter to it's own RCD, test for earth leakage, measure earth noise/fault current and reduce any above 30mA.

garo · 23-01-2020 12:29PM

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

Albright make rated disconnects for the same price as three phase fuse carraiges so that doesn't hold any water for me.
Sadly the rates they are charging post subsidy are in excess of the going rate by a factor of 2. Spare me the driving up costs claim. Justify a €4.5k mark up on a straightforward one day install they copied from their child's colouring book.
What happened to €1.20 per watt installed? A princely sum when compared to the mainland in its own right.

No battery coupled system is a good deal because adding a battery increases payback time beyond the life expectancy of the installation for grid tie.

The SEAI can't certify the installations because they clearly don't understand their own requirements.eg. show me a B-type RCD in a signed off system because every other page of the installer notes stipulates the requirement of one.

If you read carefully you would find we are saying the same thing. I was looking at ABB switches which are top of the range and my argument was that even if go with those disconnects that retail at 200 before any trade discounts, it still adds only a small bit to the cost.

Triman111 · 23-01-2020 01:33PM

Hi all - I'm new to the thread, and just in process of getting a quote.

The hosue is fairly neergy effiicient at present, we are only looking to install a 3x2, questions are as follows:

Should we split east v west?
Should be go battery or diverter or neither?
What are the typical costs we should be thinking of?
anything else to look out for?

I know some of the answers depends on our usage pattern, but we don't have an Electric car nor a night meter, but may in the future...

garo · 23-01-2020 03:21PM

What’s your annual electricity consumption? 3*2 is quite a small array. Panels are cheap and you would still be paying for everything else such as inverter, mounting hardware, Labour, wires, switching equipment etc. For solar it is important to oversize.
How do you get hot water currently? Immersion? If so, a diverter mKes sense. If oil or gas you may not make money back.

I find a small battery quite useful as it helps even out consumption. If the oven is on and a cloud passes over the sun, the battery will take over. Batteries are still very expensive so a large battery does not make economic sense.

joujoujou · 23-01-2020 03:41PM

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

[...]

The correct proceedure to eliminate fault alarms of a system is not to increase the fault alarm threshold of the system. [...]

True.

Just talked to installer, and they're doing exactly what they shouldn't (installing higher rated switches). In his opinion the whole issue may be indeed related to inappropriate earth thing, as you suggested. I have the very same Solax based system and no issues with tripping (but relatively new house).

championc · 23-01-2020 05:20PM

joujoujou wrote: »

True.

Just talked to installer, and they're doing exactly what they shouldn't (installing higher rated switches). In his opinion the whole issue may be indeed related to inappropriate earth thing, as you suggested. I have the very same Solax based system and no issues with tripping (but relatively new house).

If the house wiring is a complete bag of sh1te, I assume it shouldn't affect the Inverter once it's connected to it's own RCBO - yes ? Surely it's pretty much a direct connection from the inverter to the board, albeit via an AC Disconnect.

Unless you mean that the main house RCB is being tripped ?

Shefwedfan · 23-01-2020 06:20PM

pale rider wrote: »

My trip switch at the fuse board continues to trigger knocking out the whole system and rendering the install useless, a higher rated trip switch was installed to no avail, it is a Solax inverter, curious if it's happening elsewhere and if there is a known permanent fix that people could share.

It was a problem with my fuseboard. It was a mess. So they had to rewire it first and then connect in the PV...

Finally up and running, I think it showed up as a 1 and then it was dark :P so hopefully a bit more tomorrow.

unkel · 23-01-2020 06:28PM

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

We're among the worst in Europe for solar.

Those figures are from 2012 when solar PV cost a fortune. That graph is completely out of date now. The likes of the Netherlands (somewhere at the bottom of the pile in your graph) are somewhere near the top now. Yes, obviously because of generous subsidies and, mostly, net metering. But this didn't happen at a significant scale until pay back figures (after incentives) got down to close to the 10 year ROI and broke it.

The current Irish subsidies are extremely generous. Problem in this country though is that there is very little competition and people are very price / cost unaware and not that bothered fighting for better value for money, hence the "rip-off Ireland" culture where companies can get away with vastly overcharging for services

End of rant

23-01-2020 09:24PM

garo wrote: »

If you read carefully you would find we are saying the same thing. I was looking at ABB switches which are top of the range and my argument was that even if go with those disconnects that retail at 200 before any trade discounts, it still adds only a small bit to the cost.

A 250A DC switch -disconnect can be bought for €80.
I think you are giving them too much credit, it's not that they are choosing to use the wrong device, they don't know what the right device is.

23-01-2020 10:51PM

Switch Disconnect with Aux

Cheep as chips

23-01-2020 11:05PM

joujoujou wrote: »

True.

Just talked to installer, and they're doing exactly what they shouldn't (installing higher rated switches). In his opinion the whole issue may be indeed related to inappropriate earth thing, as you suggested. I have the very same Solax based system and no issues with tripping (but relatively new house).

index.php?action=dlattach;topic=28837.0;attach=11750;image

{Solax does not require B-type RCD but does require isolation from house RCD}

unkel wrote: »

Those figures are from 2012

Fair point.
Updated figures we're on a bottom dive.
...something to do with local markets making it cost prohibitive I expect... by the way the point was the rest of Europe has solar and no batteries...yet we seem think batteries but no (not enough) solar is a winning combo... so instead of making power we just waste some converting it through expensive boxes...

garo · 24-01-2020 12:26AM

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

Switch Disconnect with Aux

Cheep as chips

My installer put one of those on my install so maybe you are being a bit ungenerous to all them PV sparks.

24-01-2020 12:34AM

>200A, made by Albright?

DC rated, UL listed?

With a switch-disconnect symbol?

It's not a PV or inverter disconnect it's a li-ion/other battery disconnect...think 1000s of amp short circuit fault currents. Then pulling an arc towards yourself while a battery is venting flammable gass violently.

battery-inverter_fuse_switch_disconnect_3-pole.png?width=800

battery-inverter_fuse_switch_disconnect_3-pole.png?width=800

One is too many!

garo · 24-01-2020 12:35AM

By the way I agree it is insane that we subside batteries but give no credit for energy exported to the grid. Having said that you should also note that Germany the #1 country by Solar installs per capita in Europe also has very night battery installations. Over 160k as of late last year. And they like their batteries big.

garo · 24-01-2020 12:36AM

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

>200A, made by Albright?

DC rated, UL listed?

With a switch-disconnect symbol?

I will have to check the make and model tomorrow.

24-01-2020 12:41AM

Germany have so much power the value goes negative occasionally. The battery comes after the power source.

24-01-2020 01:07AM

garo wrote: »

Batteries are still very expensive so a large battery does not make economic sense.

Disagree.

Batteries are nothing new they're been improving them and making them cheaper for >150 years.

If for some reason you are convinced, on perhaps measured technical merit, that li-ion is preferable in a static traction application, from a reliable source and not something a salesperson imparted or you read on the internet. Then Yes, they can be because well they have to be reassuringly expensive.

You do realise that li-ion is only safe and functional because of the BMS?
Yet in comparison test the li-ion has a BMS and the lead acid just gets pillaged and abused and coupled with sub standard chargers!

antoinolachtnai · 24-01-2020 07:07AM

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

Germany have so much power the value goes negative occasionally. The battery comes after the power source.

Electricity price also goes negative here.

https://www.sem-o.com/market-data/dynamic-reports/#BM-026

Balancing price was negative a good few times this month.

On the 11th, electricity was negatively priced all night in the day-ahead market (where the bulk of the trade happens).

https://www.semopx.com/market-data/market-results/

24-01-2020 07:13AM

Nothing wrong with a national battery, preferably mechanical.
That doesn't validate the domestic battery though.

antoinolachtnai · 24-01-2020 07:37AM

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

Nothing wrong with a national battery, preferably mechanical.
That doesn't validate the domestic battery though.

How would this mechanical battery work? The topography doesn’t particularly suit building high lakes. If it did, we’d have a lot more hydro. If you could build it, you would still have to pay for it, and the cost would have to be spread over all electricity consumers.

A giant national battery in the midlands would not solve the problem of the weakness of the transmission and distribution grids either.

Domestic solar PV quotes 2018

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