Next % to be banned?

Swashbuckler · 23-01-2020 8:48pm

OOnegative wrote:

Me for one have no problem with the runners, as long as they are legal let people part with there hard earned money, there choice. Though my hard earned sheckles will go elsewhere, the price doesnâ€™t match the gains for me.

The issue I have is, was that pb down to runners or the right training? I don't really care too much about the elites if they can all wear them, which they can't really.

OOnegative · 23-01-2020 8:51pm

Swashbuckler wrote: »

The issue I have is, was that pb down to runners or the right training? I don't really care too much about the elites if they can all wear them, which they can't really.

I know a guy who improved his 10k nigh on 40secs & puts it purely down to the Vaporflys. Went from 37.1x to 36.3x. He’s been improving rapidly past 12 months and I put it down to consistent training instead.

skyblue46 · 23-01-2020 8:56pm

Swashbuckler wrote: »

The issue I have is, was that pb down to runners or the right training? I don't really care too much about the elites if they can all wear them, which they can't really.

Some research, which has generally not met with any opposition, is that the Next% gives a 2.7% time improvement for elites over a marathon. That's well over 3 minutes. For 3 hour marathon runners it's probably near 5 minutes. The Alphafly are reckoned to offer significantly greater gains.

As to your comment about runners or training...if someone I knows sneaks in just under 3 hours in Vapourflys after doing 3:03/4 previously in old generation shoes I will be putting it down to the shoes.

and still ricky villa · 23-01-2020 8:58pm

Swashbuckler wrote: »

The issue I have is, was that pb down to runners or the right training? I don't really care too much about the elites if they can all wear them, which they can't really.

+1 on this
I have a problem with battering myself in training and then skimming 4% off the top with Oscar Pistorius shoes

skyblue46 · 23-01-2020 8:59pm

OOnegative wrote: »

I know a guy who improved his 10k nigh on 40secs & puts it purely down to the Vaporflys. Went from 37.1x to 36.3x. He’s been improving rapidly past 12 months and I put it down to consistent training instead.

I'd put it down to the shoes...in fact I don't think it's a better run than the old PB..

OOnegative · 23-01-2020 9:01pm

skyblue46 wrote: »

Some research, which has generally not met with any opposition, is that the Next% gives a 2.7% time improvement for elites over a marathon. That's well over 3 minutes. For 3 hour marathon runners it's probably near 5 minutes. The Alphafly are reckoned to offer significantly greater gains.

As to your comment about runners or training...if someone I knows sneaks in just under 3 hours in Vapourflys after doing 3:03/4 previously in old generation shoes I will be putting it down to the shoes.

What about the training block he/she put in between marathons? No credit given to that. You seen I ran the Amsterdam Half in the cheap version on the Vapors, the Flyknit Fk and improved by more than 3.30 minutes. I’m giving fcuk all kudos to the runners, my own hard bloody work.

OOnegative · 23-01-2020 9:03pm

skyblue46 wrote: »

I'd put it down to the shoes...in fact I don't think it's a better run than the old PB..

If I said black........

skyblue46 · 23-01-2020 9:08pm

OOnegative wrote: »

What about the training block he/she put in between marathons? No credit given to that. You seen I ran the Amsterdam Half in the cheap version on the Vapors, the Flyknit Fk and improved by more than 3.30 minutes. I’m giving fcuk all kudos to the runners, my own hard bloody work.

Many people put in good hard training and don't get a PB at the end of it. Just as I wouldn't consider a 3m tailwind 100m of 9.9 secs as good a run as a 10 sec run into the same headwind I would measure Next% runs similarly.

The isn't any suggestion that the FLyknit FK offer any substantial benefits...which is why you can now buy them for €69 :pac: Undoubtedly that was all your hard work.

OOnegative · 23-01-2020 9:12pm

skyblue46 wrote: »

Many people put in good hard training and don't get a PB at the end of it. Just as I wouldn't consider a 3m tailwind 100m of 9.9 secs as good a run as a 10 sec run into the same headwind I would measure Next% runs similarly.

The isn't any suggestion that the FLyknit FK offer any substantial benefits...which is why you can now buy them for €69 :pac: Undoubtedly that was all your hard work.

€69 where, link please!!

skyblue46 · 23-01-2020 9:14pm

OOnegative wrote: »

If I said black........

Seriously I thought it was beyond dispute that the two versions of Vapourfly on the market offer substantial benefits...this is coming from both research and athletes themselves.

I'm not great at linking stuff but look up Science of Sports "The shoe that may have broke running" podcast.

skyblue46 · 23-01-2020 9:16pm

OOnegative wrote: »

€69 where, link please!!

They're in the outlet in Blanchardstown...

OOnegative · 23-01-2020 9:16pm

skyblue46 wrote: »

Seriously I thought it was beyond dispute that the two versions of Vapourfly on the market offer substantial benefits...this is coming from both research and athletes themselves.

I'm not great at linking stuff but look up Science of Sports "The shoe that may have broke running" podcast.

I’m just being argumentative for sake of it, I get there’s benefits to be had for the elites but not so with us plodders.

OOnegative · 23-01-2020 9:17pm

skyblue46 wrote: »

They're in the outlet in Blanchardstown...

Feck all use to me!!!

Swashbuckler · 23-01-2020 9:22pm

OOnegative wrote:

What about the training block he/she put in between marathons? No credit given to that. You seen I ran the Amsterdam Half in the cheap version on the Vapors, the Flyknit Fk and improved by more than 3.30 minutes. Iâ€™m giving fcuk all kudos to the runners, my own hard bloody work.

I'd agree with S here. A training block doesn't mean you're training right. Plenty of people put together a ****e block of training. I'd like to know i trained the right way, developed the right systems, had the right approach and improved my weaknesses. Id always have that doubt if I ran in Vaporfly's and made a small gain. Hence the debate about how often ill wear my 4%'s.

OOnegative · 23-01-2020 9:23pm

Swashbuckler wrote: »

I'd agree with S here. A training block doesn't mean you're training right. Plenty of people put together a ****e block of training. I'd like to know i trained the right way, developed the right systems, had the right approach and improved my weaknesses. Id always have that doubt if I ran in Vaporfly's and made a small gain. Hence the debate about how often ill wear my 4%'s.

Your poor wife’s money.......

Swashbuckler · 23-01-2020 9:25pm

OOnegative wrote:

Your poor wifeâ€™s money.......

Literally no thought into presents anymore. Just cash in hand. Wheres the romance gone. Lol

skyblue46 · 23-01-2020 9:26pm

OOnegative wrote: »

I’m just being argumentative for sake of it, I get there’s benefits to be had for the elites but not so with us plodders.

The benefits are for everyone. It's physics. Would I throw €270 at getting a sub 90 HM? Not a bloody chance. To set the best possible time I could in a full? That'd be foolish ego. To break 40 in 10k? Narcissism at its best! :pac:

But I could understand someone chasing a GFA time for a major that they really want to run in donning a pair

sideswipe · 23-01-2020 10:34pm

I'd wear a pair on my hands as well if I thought it would help me run a sub 3

skyblue46 · 23-01-2020 10:38pm

sideswipe wrote: »

I'd wear a pair on my hands as well if I thought it would help me run a sub 3

If you can run 3:03 without them then it's time to lace them up! Haha...

ultrapercy · 24-01-2020 2:16am

I wore the next% in Lanzarote marathon in December. I was in what I estimated to be 2:45 shape(2.42 to 2:45) I ran 2.45.06. I was hoping the 4% Nike marketing spiel was true and Id sneak under 2.40 but alas Nike are better at increasing their own profits than they are at reducing my marathon time. I will say however they are the most comfortable shoes I ever raced in and the absence of foot and lower leg soreness that I usually experience in the last 10k made them worth the money. The race was run mainly on the very hard surface of the promenade which would normally have me hobbled for days but I ran 4 miles the day after and was back to ache free running within 3 or 4 days. My shuffle style may not be the best for exploiting the advantage these shoes give but I dont believe they give anyone more than a minute of improvement.

Murph_D · 24-01-2020 2:50am

OOnegative wrote: »

I know a guy who improved his 10k nigh on 40secs & puts it purely down to the Vaporflys. Went from 37.1x to 36.3x. He’s been improving rapidly past 12 months and I put it down to consistent training instead.

Fair enough, but he knows best! (Hopefully).

Murph_D · 24-01-2020 3:02am

This debate seems a bit useless. We will never know whether any boards athlete’s improvement is down to better training or better shoes. The margins are too small, and the potential for improvement from increased training load in any one runner is just too great.

What is indisputable is that, all other things being equal (ie elite training), the shoes are worth some time.

sideswipe · 24-01-2020 2:03pm

Vaporflys one the men race at the Dubai marathon today. Adidas took the ladies:)

11 men under 2:07 all in Next %'s! The final 2k is worth a look.

Itziger · 24-01-2020 8:41pm

sideswipe wrote: »

Vaporflys one the men race at the Dubai marathon today. Adidas took the ladies:)

11 men under 2:07 all in Next %'s! The final 2k is worth a look.

Jeez, 11 lads jogging along - it really does look like a Long Tempo Run or something - at km 41......

The new normal. Not sure it's the shoes though..........

opus · 24-01-2020 10:50pm

Itziger wrote: »

Jeez, 11 lads jogging along - it really does look like a Long Tempo Run or something - at km 41......

The new normal. Not sure it's the shoes though..........

I liked the comment on letrun.com particularly about the person finishing 11th.

With one kilometer to go in Friday’s Dubai Marathon, 11 men ran in a tightly-bunched lead pack. One of them would earn $100,000 for winning the race; one of them would finish 11th and earn nothing.

Unheralded Olika Adugna Bikila of Ethiopia kicked best, using a late move on the final turn to pass Kenya’s Eric Kiptanui and win in his debut in 2:06:15 (Kiptanui, also making his debut, was second in 2:06:17). The odd man out Ethiopia’s Beshah Yerssie Eskezia, who finished 11th, though he did pick up a small consolation: with a time of 2:06:34, he became the fastest 11th-place finisher in history. A time that would have stood as the world record as recently as 1998 is now a complete afterthought, not worth even a single cent of prize money.

Just another day in the post-Vaporfly marathon world.

sideswipe · 24-01-2020 11:31pm

I'm not buying this whole 'they're only fast because of the shoes'. Dubai was always fast with big pay cheques. No magic shoes in 2016 and times were still fast.

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Swashbuckler · 24-01-2020 11:43pm

sideswipe wrote:

I'm not buying this whole 'they're only fast because of the shoes'. Dubai was always fast with big pay cheques. No magic shoes in 2016 and times were still fast.

Whatever about dubai its no coincidence the amount of records that have fallen in the past year, most of which have been down to the Vaporfly.

sideswipe · 25-01-2020 12:18am

Swashbuckler wrote: »

Whatever about dubai its no coincidence the amount of records that have fallen in the past year, most of which have been down to the Vaporfly.

I think while there is some truth in that the statement, the article claiming that-

A time that would have stood as the world record as recently as 1998 is now a complete afterthought, not worth even a single cent of prize money.

Just another day in the post-Vaporfly marathon world.

Is ignoring the massive leaps in times from 1998 to the Nike breaking 2 project and the VF’s being launched.

KSU · 25-01-2020 1:28pm

sideswipe wrote: »

I'm not buying this whole 'they're only fast because of the shoes'. Dubai was always fast with big pay cheques. No magic shoes in 2016 and times were still fast.

Letsrun made a good point

Four marathons in history have seen 11 men break 2:08; three have taken place in the last four months.

average_runner · 25-01-2020 3:47pm

Anyone I know who has raced the marathon in them, said they do make a difference.

Next % to be banned?

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