Saracens Salarygate: Automatic Relegation?

17-01-2020 04:27PM

With the players now apparently being told that an additional reduction of 35 points is to happen that's it for Saracens.

Apparently the full sentence was to be 70 points but it was halved on discretion. As Sarries did nothing about the cap after the judgement and Wray dismissed the charges somewhat they've gotten the full whack now.

aloooof · 17-01-2020 04:29PM

I think I remember hearing Saracens were 200/1 to be relegated at the start of the season...

thomond2006 · 17-01-2020 04:32PM

aloooof wrote: »

I think I remember hearing Saracens were 200/1 to be relegated at the start of the season...

I imagine the sneaky bookies wouldn't honour it somehow. They'd argue that 200/1 was based on an even competition from the start.

Open to correction...

jr86 · 17-01-2020 04:32PM

aloooof wrote: »

I think I remember hearing Saracens were 200/1 to be relegated at the start of the season...

Jeez they're short enough odds to be honest!

Without all these shenanigans I'd have thought it about as likely as Spain winning the next rugby world cup

Quin_Dub · 17-01-2020 04:36PM

thomond2006 wrote: »

230k seems like a pittance for a player of Williams' calibre.

Unless Wray was pumping money into Cheapshot Merchant Ltd...

durkadurka wrote: »

something of a source here:
http://www.dai-sport.com/liam-williams-230000-reasons-hell-scarlet-sooner-rather-later/

I wonder if the £230k is what they'd save by cutting him early rather than his annual salary? - The money they've already paid him this season is already banked against the £7M cap for the year I would assume.

OldRio · 17-01-2020 04:43PM

With all these goings on I think it's only fair, that our thoughts and prayers go out to Stephen Jones at this most difficult and troublesome time.

Riskymove · 17-01-2020 04:49PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Apparently the full sentence was to be 70 points but it was halved on discretion. As Sarries did nothing about the cap after the judgement and Wray dismissed the charges somewhat they've gotten the full whack now.

while I have little sympathy, a number of the articles outline how it is effectively impossible to get under the cap mid season and it is unsurprising that they couldn't suddenly be compliant during this season.

even cancelling contracts attract severance payments which would still be counted in this years expenditure

the mess here comes from the apparent decision to wait until after the RWC to act. really should have all happened before season started

Podge_irl · 17-01-2020 04:51PM

Riskymove wrote: »

the mess here comes from the apparent decision to wait until after the RWC to act. really should have all happened before season started

Pretty sure there were people at the top and throughout the organisation that were convinced they had genuinely done nothing wrong and therefore had nothing to fix.

molloyjh · 17-01-2020 04:56PM

Podge_irl wrote: »

Pretty sure there were people at the top and throughout the organisation that were convinced they had genuinely done nothing wrong and therefore had nothing to fix.

Sure they had a FAQ section on their website in November after the news first broke where they plainly said that they were under the cap this season. You couldnt write this.

It's all but official at thisnstage anyway. Another 35 point deduction.

https://amp.theguardian.com/sport/2020/jan/17/saracens-salary-cap-premiership-relegation?CMP=share_btn_tw&__twitter_impression=true

17-01-2020 04:57PM

durkadurka wrote: »

that newspaper is an absolute rag but they've been good on this story, to be fair to them.

The Mail actually do some half decent sports reporting at times. One of theirs was one of the main guys uncovering all the Team Sky shenanigans.

Quin_Dub · 17-01-2020 04:57PM

Riskymove wrote: »

while I have little sympathy, a number of the articles outline how it is effectively impossible to get under the cap mid season and it is unsurprising that they couldn't suddenly be compliant during this season.

even cancelling contracts attract severance payments which would still be counted in this years expenditure

the mess here comes from the apparent decision to wait until after the RWC to act. really should have all happened before season started

From what I'm reading the decision came after Saracens continued to argue the toss and feign innocence.

If Saracens had come clean earlier and not fought and obfuscated at every opportunity they could have sorted it out and avoided all of this.

They signed MORE players over the past summer FFS - Other than Shalk Brits there were no notable departures..

Absolutely ZERO sympathy for the club as an Institution. I have sympathy for some players and staff that are going to take a hit here. But every dog in the street knew they were cheating so even that sympathy is fairly limited..

Riskymove · 17-01-2020 05:02PM

Quin_Dub wrote: »

From what I'm reading the decision came after Saracens continued to argue the toss and feign innocence.

..

I dont see that in the articles linked to above

Indeed the guardian sets out how it was effectively impossible at this stage to sort it out and the other clubs acceptance of that (effectively there was no way they could be under the cap this year and that is down in part to the late reporting in November)

The club’s acting chief executive, Ed Griffiths, had initially indicated he would aim to cut wages and offload players but it has become increasingly apparent that doing so this season will not be practicable. Other English clubs cannot accommodate them without going over the cap themselves while any severance payments would also count towards the cap. It is understood Saracens would have needed to trim up to £2 million from their wage bill to be compliant.

as I said I have no sympathy but think it should have been reported on earlier and Sarries either relegated or given the full points deduction at an earlier time

Cookiemunster · 17-01-2020 05:09PM

Melina Unsightly Apparel wrote: »

The Mail actually do some half decent sports reporting at times. One of theirs was one of the main guys uncovering all the Team Sky shenanigans.

They've realised the disconnection between their front and back pages and now offer a sports only online package.

Podge_irl · 17-01-2020 05:10PM

Riskymove wrote: »

as I said I have no sympathy but think it should have been reported on earlier and Sarries either relegated or given the full points deduction at an earlier time

Perhaps, though if Saracens had not been so belligerent in the face of all this they may have escaped further punishment. They are entirely to blame for this themselves.

Podge_irl · 17-01-2020 05:11PM

Cookiemunster wrote: »

They've realised the disconnection between their front and back pages and now offer a sports only online package.

So do the Telegraph actually which I find quite handy.

Neil3030 · 17-01-2020 05:21PM

My take, piecing together various sources of information:
Sarries knew they were nominally over the cap at the beginning of the year, but took a gamble on being able to convince PRL that extra-curricular investment in companies or properties in collaboration with players should not be counted towards their salary spend. This effort failed, (or it became apparent that it was definitely going to fail) and they had no plan B for cutting wages or jettisoning players.

That's about the only thing that makes sense to me. Otherwise they were over the cap, were informed they were over the cap, knew further punishment awaited if they didn't act, didn't act, and just... I dunno... hoped the PRL would forget about it?

Squidgy Black · 17-01-2020 05:32PM

Neil3030 wrote: »

My take, piecing together various sources of information:
Sarries knew they were nominally over the cap at the beginning of the year, but took a gamble on being able to convince PRL that extra-curricular investment in companies or properties in collaboration with players should not be counted towards their salary spend. This effort failed, (or it became apparent that it was definitely going to fail) and they had no plan B for cutting wages or jettisoning players.

That's about the only thing that makes sense to me. Otherwise they were over the cap, were informed they were over the cap, knew further punishment awaited if they didn't act, didn't act, and just... I dunno... hoped the PRL would forget about it?

I think the first part is probably closer to the truth, and would line up with Wray stepping away after they had no grounds for appeal, and they realised how deep in the swamp they were after trying other avenues like shopping players around other clubs.

It'll be interesting to see what comes out after the dust settles.

Riskymove · 17-01-2020 05:38PM

Podge_irl wrote: »

Perhaps, though if Saracens had not been so belligerent in the face of all this they may have escaped further punishment. They are entirely to blame for this themselves.

sure

but we now have the charade of sarries actually playing the rest of the premiership season

perhaps at the same time as getting through to QF and further, even winning Europe

Podge_irl · 17-01-2020 05:50PM

Riskymove wrote: »

sure

but we now have the charade of sarries actually playing the rest of the premiership season

perhaps at the same time as getting through to QF and further, even winning Europe

There is no mechanism to simply relegate them though. Sarries would always have had to play out the season.

Quin_Dub · 17-01-2020 05:57PM

Riskymove wrote: »

sure

but we now have the charade of sarries actually playing the rest of the premiership season

perhaps at the same time as getting through to QF and further, even winning Europe

What would happen if all the other Premiership clubs simply refused to fulfill the fixtures against them?

Riskymove · 17-01-2020 06:01PM

Podge_irl wrote: »

There is no mechanism to simply relegate them though. Sarries would always have had to play out the season.

yes but perhaps they would be under the cap while doing so at least if it all came out during summer for example

the fact that they can continue to have the full squad and play the rest of the season impacting on who wins etc is the charade

Quin_Dub · 17-01-2020 06:10PM

Riskymove wrote: »

yes but perhaps they would be under the cap while doing so at least if it all came out during summer for example

the fact that they can continue to have the full squad and play the rest of the season impacting on who wins etc is the charade

Don't disagree , but equally , if they were to force Saracens to dump half the squad right now then the clubs that they've already played and beaten might feel aggrieved that they had to play Money-bags Sarries and not Poor-House Sarries.

As it wasn't done pre-season , there's not much they can do now really other than let the season finish out.

Riskymove · 17-01-2020 06:13PM

Quin_Dub wrote: »

As it wasn't done pre-season , there's not much they can do now really other than let the season finish out.

er....well yes...that's the point I have been making...that it should have been done earlier in summer rather than waiting until RWC so as not to upset England players

jacothelad · 17-01-2020 06:22PM

stephen_n wrote: »

Only if they hold on to the players, which would be very unlikely given the cut in wages that would be required.

Nosalary cap in the Championship..afaik.

durkadurka · 17-01-2020 06:24PM

The near certain relegation this season ensures Saracens are out of the next two Heineken cup seasons.

Will any of their stars stay on with that prospect?

prawnsambo · 17-01-2020 07:39PM

durkadurka wrote: »

The near certain relegation this season ensures Saracens are out of the next two Heineken cup seasons.

Will any of their stars stay on with that prospect?

Would they stay on with the Championship in prospect next year? The heady heights of London Welsh, Cornish Pirates and Newcastle Falcons? Telling that they didn't seem willing to take a pay cut.

BonnieSituation · 17-01-2020 07:41PM

jr86 wrote: »

I'm sure it'd be facilitated though

If you earn your place, you deserve your place in fairness

I know its football, but when cardiff and Millwall made FA Cup finals they were playing for European football the year after despite being in championship at the time

This is the nub of the argument; they didn't earn their place and it wasn't "in fairness".

Squidgy Black · 17-01-2020 07:44PM

Remember the whole spiel Wray and co were spinning about players not joining Saracens just for the money, but the culture.... I have a feeling that's soon to bite them in the arse.

BonnieSituation · 17-01-2020 08:16PM

Quin_Dub wrote: »

What would happen if all the other Premiership clubs simply refused to fulfill the fixtures against them?

Surely Sarries would get walkover wins in this case?

prawnsambo · 17-01-2020 08:19PM

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Remember the whole spiel Wray and co were spinning about players not joining Saracens just for the money, but the culture.... I have a feeling that's soon to bite them in the arse.

It occurred to me when I heard no talk of them taking a pay cut alright. Culture doesn't butter parsnips I believe.

Saracens Salarygate: Automatic Relegation?

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