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Solving the “middle lane hoggers” problem.

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    #212
    Henry Ford III
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 17,651 Mod ✭✭✭✭Henry Ford III


    tom1ie wrote: »
    Agreed. So both are in the wrong. However mlh cause undertaking so if there weren't mlh's there wouldn't be undertaking.

    You still don't have to undertake though. Pull out and pass them on the rhs.

    The Gardai need to punish both bad behaviours.


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    #213
    tuxy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,983 ✭✭✭✭tuxy


    The Garda currently do not punish MLH unfortunately but some will pull you over for a dangerous undertake.


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    #214
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Henry Ford III wrote: »
    Laws frequently make no sense. Your obligations remain however.

    The amount of snarky responses when this is the correct answer.


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    #215
    Charlie-Bravo
    Registered Users Posts: 5,625 ✭✭✭Charlie-Bravo


    Just in case we've all forgotten above the public info videos from the RSA.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SJ1elDR5Ao


    Shame or didn't have a third lane comment, but still says always drive on the left lane, or at least go back into it when donated 'overtaking'.

    I've said it before, you shouldn't be able to undertake if everyone drives properly.

    -. . ...- . .-. / --. --- -. -. .- / --. .. ...- . / -.-- --- ..- / ..- .--.



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    #216
    FrToddUnctious
    Registered Users Posts: 84 ✭✭FrToddUnctious


    Henry Ford III wrote: »
    Laws frequently make no sense. Your obligations remain however.

    I don't understand your point, I'm not disputing the legality, I'm well aware that undertaking is illegal

    If you read my first comment and what I was replying to, I'm doubting the claim that undertaking increases the risk of collision


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    #217
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    tom1ie wrote: »
    It is as I like to drive at 100kph. However I'm not allowed undertake, so I have to then execute five manoeuvres that shouldn't have to be executed.
    Do you understand now or is this still too complicated for you?

    For everyone else that's just normal driving.

    Charging lanes is pretty much constant in any city driving especially on a ring road like the M50 or similar. I genuinely just don't get why it's a big deal. The only people I can see it being a hassle for us people in large vehicles which aren't allowed in the 3rd lane, or that will be genuinely caught behind a slow driver. Everyone else will just go around them.


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    #218
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Then there's the elephant in the room that lane hoggers might not be having a negative impact on congestion.

    https://sydney.edu.au/business/news-and-events/news/2018/12/21/does-slower-driving-make-us-go-faster-.html


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    #219
    SeanW
    Registered Users Posts: 8,776 ✭✭✭SeanW


    I have a thread on this in the parent forum, here, nutshell version is that my view is that you cannot punish people for keeping to the driving lane while rewarding people for middle lane hogging, and then act surprised when - shock of horrors - people drive in the middle lane.

    Dual carriageways especially in Dublin are full of places where it is in your interest as a driver to either stay in the middle lane or "keep right unless undertaking" thanks to stupid road design and lane markings. The two most egregious examples I can think of, though there are probably plenty more, are on the N4 from Palmerston to beyond Leixlip and the M50 from the Northern Cross Route going towards Santry. Nutshell version is that TII seemed to have designed those movements in such a way as to actively encourage a "keep right unless undertaking" attitude. While I can see some 'logic' in the design of the N4 outbound, the M50 Santry access just looks bizarre.

    I think TTI should focus on keeping driving lanes continuous. They should be designed sothat people following the course of the road and in so doing using the driving lane get to keep going without needless yield-and-merge lane changes, instead making exiting/merging traffic and vehicles in right hand lanes yield to them. Then, yes if there are still idiots who misuse the overtaking lane(s) go after them. But middle lane hogs as individuals are only part of the problem.


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    #220
    plodder
    Registered Users Posts: 7,147 ✭✭✭plodder


    astrofluff wrote: »
    Just in case we've all forgotten above the public info videos from the RSA.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SJ1elDR5Ao


    Shame or didn't have a third lane comment, but still says always drive on the left lane, or at least go back into it when donated 'overtaking'.

    I've said it before, you shouldn't be able to undertake if everyone drives properly.
    I was going to post a link to some of those videos the other day. There is a three lane version that was shot on the M50 also on youtube. But, one striking thing about them all is that there are no more than three vehicles in any of them. So, they are purely ideal conditions, not related to every day driving on busy motorways like the M50 or (M/N7)

    So, they simply don't address the typical scenario of where someone stays in the middle lane, eg

    - with loads of traffic entering at junctions

    - light traffic in lane 1, going slower than lane 2, but significant gaps in the lane 1 traffic.

    So, unless the guidance from the RSA actually addresses these scenarios then they're not very helpful imo.


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    #221
    tom1ie
    Registered Users Posts: 10,158 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    Henry Ford III wrote: »
    You still don't have to undertake though. Pull out and pass them on the rhs.

    The Gardai need to punish both bad behaviours.

    But that introduces 5 unnecessary manoeuvres for the l1 driver, who is obeying the law, which increases risk, all because the l2 is completely in the wrong.


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    #222
    tom1ie
    Registered Users Posts: 10,158 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    beauf wrote: »
    For everyone else that's just normal driving.

    Charging lanes is pretty much constant in any city driving especially on a ring road like the M50 or similar. I genuinely just don't get why it's a big deal. The only people I can see it being a hassle for us people in large vehicles which aren't allowed in the 3rd lane, or that will be genuinely caught behind a slow driver. Everyone else will just go around them.

    which is why we have traffic congestion. That’s my point.
    You seem to be missing this.


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    #223
    chooseusername
    Registered Users Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    tom1ie wrote: »
    But that introduces 5 unnecessary manoeuvres for the l1 driver, who is obeying the law, which increases risk, all because the l2 is completely in the wrong.
    4 actually, and 4 separate manoeuvres at that,
    not a swoop across two lanes and a swoop back across two lanes to get back into lane one again .
    Passing on left the may incur a fine for careless driving,
    passing on the right will not , and should not increase risk ,if done properly.


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    #224
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    beauf wrote: »
    It is very rare to see lane 1 empty and lanes 2 and 3 full.

    Usually when there are middle lane hoggers, lane 3 is free enough to overtake. Unless there is a lane hogger in lane 3.

    Do you ever drive on the M50?Outside of peak times there are easily 2 or 3 times more traffic in the middle lane than the driving lane, usually doing a max of bang on 100 on their speedo, usually under it,


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    #225
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    tom1ie wrote: »
    which is why we have traffic congestion. That’s my point.
    You seem to be missing this.

    Congestion with an empty lane apparently....
    tom1ie wrote: »
    So as the title of this thread suggests I’m putting forward an idea to maybe help with the problem of people driving in the middle lane of a 3 lane motorway when there is no traffic in the left hand driving lane of that motorway.
    ....

    I thought it was too many cars causing gridlock. My bad.


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    #226
    tuxy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,983 ✭✭✭✭tuxy


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    Do you ever drive on the M50?Outside of peak times there are easily 2 or 3 times more traffic in the middle lane than the driving lane, usually doing a max of bang on 100 on their speedo, usually under it,

    Not just the M50 off peak but all other 3 lane motorways and national roads even during peak times with the these roads.
    If you don't drive these roads then of course you won't see the issue.


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    #227
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    Actually, now that I think of it, there was a very good example tonight on my way from Clondalkin to Tallaght. I join the motorway at the Red Cow, woman in a yaris (iirc)joined a couple of hundred meters ahead of me (she came from Naas road outbound, I came from clondalkin) , after about 10 secs in the driving lane at about 95kmh she move out to the middle lane to join behind a row of cars (maybe 10 or 15 stretched out as far as I could see ahead). There were a few cars in the outside lane and just me in the driving lane. Idiots, all of them.

    The nearest car ahead of her was about 50m or more and going slightly faster anyway so she was in no danger if catching it. I kept and eye on her in my mirror and until I started slowing going up the hill on the slip towards the roundabout I was pulling ahead further the whole time.

    Im not apologising for staying where I was at an indicated 105 or so and going past her.


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    #228
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    Do you ever drive on the M50?Outside of peak times there are easily 2 or 3 times more traffic in the middle lane than the driving lane, usually doing a max of bang on 100 on their speedo, usually under it,

    Every other morning, and off peak no problem overtaking them all, or changing lanes in fast moving traffic.

    I never see lane 1 empty either. It's usually so jammed it's hard to merge on to the motorway..


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    #229
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Henry Ford III wrote: »
    Overtaking properly and legally is never dangerous if done correctly.

    It is perfectly proper and legal to move from lane 1-3 and back. I still would not recommend it as a repeated tactic


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    #230
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    People shouldn't assume that our rules of the roads are the only ones that work. Other countries might have different ones.


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    #231
    ActingDanClark
    Registered Users Posts: 1,902 ✭✭✭ActingDanClark


    Professor Genius wrote: »
    The left lane is the slow lane and the middle lane the medium lane and the right lane the fast lane. It’s fairly straightforward

    No such thing as a "fast lane" in Ireland. It's for overtsking


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    #232
    tom1ie
    Registered Users Posts: 10,158 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    chooseusername wrote: »
    4 actually, and 4 separate manoeuvres at that,
    not a swoop across two lanes and a swoop back across two lanes to get back into lane one again .
    Passing on left the may incur a fine for careless driving,
    passing on the right will not , and should not increase risk ,if done properly.

    (1) car a= l1 to l2
    (2) car a= l2 to l3
    (3) car a overtakes car b which is doing something illegal.
    (4) car a= l3 to l2
    (5) car a= l2 to l1 (back into the driving lane)

    That is 5 manoeuvres not 4.
    Passing is more risky than driving in a straight line, that’s just the nature of driving and if you knew how to risk assess this would be common knowledge to you.
    Introducing the above five manoeuvres for multiples of drivers in and around the same time in the same localised area of road, not only increases risk it increases traffic congestion.
    So in effect your post is nonsense.


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    #233
    tom1ie
    Registered Users Posts: 10,158 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    Actually, now that I think of it, there was a very good example tonight on my way from Clondalkin to Tallaght. I join the motorway at the Red Cow, woman in a yaris (iirc)joined a couple of hundred meters ahead of me (she came from Naas road outbound, I came from clondalkin) , after about 10 secs in the driving lane at about 95kmh she move out to the middle lane to join behind a row of cars (maybe 10 or 15 stretched out as far as I could see ahead). There were a few cars in the outside lane and just me in the driving lane. Idiots, all of them.

    The nearest car ahead of her was about 50m or more and going slightly faster anyway so she was in no danger if catching it. I kept and eye on her in my mirror and until I started slowing going up the hill on the slip towards the roundabout I was pulling ahead further the whole time.

    Im not apologising for staying where I was at an indicated 105 or so and going past her.

    This happens all day on all of our motorways, and this is why we have traffic congestion.
    Instead of pumping millions into putting third lanes on roads, let’s trial some paint on tarmac to see how we get on.
    Millions could be spent on public transport instead.


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    #234
    AngryLoner
    Registered Users Posts: 106 ✭✭AngryLoner


    When I drive home from Cork, I join the M50 at the N7 exit/entrance. There's three lanes, all of them rammed with cars. I have to get to the third lane at some stage as it's the exit for Baldoyle area. I'm getting on that third lane as soon as I can and staying there, rather than waiting until the last minute and trying to force my way on to it at the right time.

    Does that make me a bad person?


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    #235
    irish_goat
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 5,775 Mod ✭✭✭✭irish_goat


    AngryLoner wrote: »
    Does that make me a bad persondriver?

    Yes.


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    #236
    AngryLoner
    Registered Users Posts: 106 ✭✭AngryLoner


    irish_goat wrote: »
    Yes.

    Well that's crazy. Common sense would suggest what I'm doing is a lot safer than trying to force my way across three crowded lanes at the very last minute.

    The M50 is a special case, surely... with it's constant snarl of traffic and it's third-lane exit.


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    #237
    _Kaiser_
    Registered Users Posts: 28,736 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    AngryLoner wrote: »
    Well that's crazy. Common sense would suggest what I'm doing is a lot safer than trying to force my way across three crowded lanes at the very last minute.

    The M50 is a special case, surely... with it's constant snarl of traffic and it's third-lane exit.

    I'd agree with you for what it's worth and as long as you're not holding up other traffic by doing so, you're causing no issue at all.

    Unfortunately there are many drivers out there who are more concerned with the "letter of the law" than adapting their driving to the real-world situation in front of them.

    The M50/N7 is indeed a unique case (in Ireland) in that the sheer volume of traffic and close proximity of exits mean that all lanes become driving lanes most of the time. There's nothing wrong with that, and staying in your lane is certainly preferable to making a lot of unwarranted manoevers among traffic moving at different speeds just to "keep left".

    At off peak times or on the other motorways though absolutely should drivers keep left unless overtaking.


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    #238
    endacl
    Registered Users Posts: 22,243 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    beauf wrote: »
    People shouldn't assume that our rules of the roads are the only ones that work. Other countries might have different ones.

    People don’t assume this. People agree that these are the rules we’re all using, and a certain degree of predictability and expectability enters the system.


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    #239
    _Kaiser_
    Registered Users Posts: 28,736 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    endacl wrote: »
    People don’t assume this. People agree that these are the rules we’re all using, and a certain degree of predictability and expectability enters the system.

    Actually, on a tangent, with the number of different nationalities living here and who (as far as I know) can just drive away on our roads if from within the EU or UK without taking a test here, those rules and expectations have become increasingly variable depending on what was the norm at home

    Open to correction on the above though.


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    #240
    chooseusername
    Registered Users Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    tom1ie wrote: »
    (1) car a= l1 to l2
    (2) car a= l2 to l3
    (3) car a overtakes car b which is doing something illegal.
    (4) car a= l3 to l2
    (5) car a= l2 to l1 (back into the driving lane)

    That is 5 manoeuvres not 4.
    Passing is more risky than driving in a straight line, that’s just the nature of driving and if you knew how to risk assess this would be common knowledge to you.
    Introducing the above five manoeuvres for multiples of drivers in and around the same time in the same localised area of road, not only increases risk it increases traffic congestion.
    So in effect your post is nonsense.
    Ok 4 lane changes then.(though driving past a car is hardly a manoeuvre )
    So, multiple drivers passing illegally on the left is not only safer, but reduces congestion?
    Now, that is nonsense.


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    #241
    irish_goat
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 5,775 Mod ✭✭✭✭irish_goat


    AngryLoner wrote: »
    Well that's crazy. Common sense would suggest what I'm doing is a lot safer than trying to force my way across three crowded lanes at the very last minute.

    You don't need to move "at the very last minute". You can stay in the correct lane and move over when the road signs tell you to.


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