Vegan Death Cult

MMyers · 14-01-2020 02:51PM

The irony i've found in the vegans I know is that 99% of them talk about the dangers of eating meat...while holding a roll up or ciggarette lol, complete lack of self awareness with some of these people

the beer revolu · 14-01-2020 02:53PM

MMyers wrote: »

The irony i've found in the vegans I know is that 99% of them talk about the dangers of eating meat...while holding a roll up or ciggarette lol, complete lack of self awareness with some of these people

Answer honestly.
How many vegans do you know?
Actually know, as in they know your name and you know theirs.

mathie · 14-01-2020 02:54PM

Bambi wrote: »

Where do you think vegetables grow? Veganism is no greater shakes than meat in terms of land usage and probably worse in terms of killing wildlife

Not true.

"The new analysis shows that while meat and dairy provide just 18% of calories and 37% of protein, it uses the vast majority – 83% – of farmland and produces 60% of agriculture’s greenhouse gas emissions."

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/may/31/avoiding-meat-and-dairy-is-single-biggest-way-to-reduce-your-impact-on-earth

MMyers · 14-01-2020 02:57PM

the beer revolu wrote: »

Answer honestly.
How many vegans do you know?
Actually know, as in they know your name and you know theirs.

I work with 10 out of 17

Cantona's Collars · 14-01-2020 02:59PM

MMyers wrote: »

I work with 10 out of 17

Ah sure the cigarettes keep them from feeling hungry.

It's a joke lads before someone gets offended.

gozunda · 14-01-2020 03:01PM

Assetbacked wrote: »

https://globalforestatlas.yale.edu/amazon/land-use/soy"Soy cultivation is a major driver of deforestation in the Amazon basin. Seeds from the soybean plant provide high protein animal feed for livestock, and 80% of Amazon soy is destined for animal feed; smaller percentages are used for oil or eaten directly."That is dismaying.

And that my friend is one of the biggist issues with the constant repetition of stuff being used as a big stick to beat animal based agriculture

Whilst that article details some information about soy - it fails to mention the relevant facts about soy and animal feed. Namely

Soy is grown predominantly for the extraction of soya oil. The number one oil produced in the world and the most valuable.

What is left over after processing for oil is called soy meal and husks of the soy. Due to the volume produced most of this stuff is sold to the the animal feed sector. And no that's just not cattle. It's used mostly in the pet food industry, horses, poulty - you name it.

Quote:
About 85 percent of the world’s soybeans are processed, or "crushed," annually into soybean meal and oil. Approximately 98 percent of the soybean meal that is crushed is further processed into animal feed with the balance used to make soy flour and proteins. Of the oil fraction, 95 percent is consumed as edible oil; the rest is used for industrial products such as fatty acids, soaps and biodiesel

https://www.oilseedandgrain.com/soy-facts

So at least 85% of soy is grown primarily for human consumption in the form of edible oil or biofuel etc with the residues being fed to animals.

Most of the soy imported here comes from the US btw

https://mobile.twitter.com/donlayman/status/1188124117230333952?s=19

And if I had a cent for everytime someone has had to point this out when these facts are used incorrectly I'd be stinking rich!

Dismaying indeed it's still being repeated...

gozunda · 14-01-2020 03:18PM

mathie wrote: »

Not true.
"The new analysis shows that while meat and dairy provide just 18% of calories and 37% of protein, it uses the vast majority – 83% – of farmland and produces 60% of agriculture’s greenhouse gas emissions."
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/may/31/avoiding-meat-and-dairy-is-single-biggest-way-to-reduce-your-impact-on-earth

Incorrect. What the revious poster stated is largely true.

What you are quoting is an opinion piece from a newspaper which receives funding from plant food industry interests to publish paid for media content.

Here is the real data from the UNs Food and Agriculture Organisation (FAO)

Animal food sources make a vital contribution to global nutrition and are an excellent source of macro- and micronutrients. Livestock products make up 18% of global calories, 34% of global protein consumption and provides essential micro-nutrients, such as vitamin B12, iron and calcium.

Livestock use large areas of pastures where nothing else could be produced. Animals also add to agricultural production through manure production and drought power. Further, keeping livestock provides a secure source of income for over 500 million poor people in many in rural areas.

http://www.fao.org/ag/againfo/home/en/news_archive/2017_More_Fuel_for_the_Food_Feed.html

You will also find that globally the biggest emitters of greenhouse gases is fossil fuel in energy production and transport. Agriculture makes up approx 30% of global ghgs and that covers all types of agriculture, arable, horticultural and animal and more that production importantly feeds people.

Interestingly according to the EPA - transports contribution to ghgs has increased 37% since 1990. And Agriculture contribution has increased by just 1%. Over the same period.

And that is the biggest issue with this whole plant based promotion thing - much of it is based on misinformation and then gets passed on.

Assetbacked · 14-01-2020 03:19PM

gozunda wrote: »

And that my friend is one of the biggist issues with the constant repetition of stuff being used as a big stick to beat animal based agriculture

Whilst that article details some information about soy - it fails to mention the relevant facts about soy and animal feed. Namely

Soy is grown predominantly for the extraction of soya oil. The number one oil produced in the world and the most valuable.

What is left over after processing for oil is called soy meal and husks of the soy. Due to the volume produced most of this stuff is sold to the the animal feed sector. And no that's just not cattle. It's used mostly in the pet food industry, horses, poulty - you name it.

https://www.oilseedandgrain.com/soy-facts

So at least 85% of soy is grown for human consumption in the form of edible oil or biofuel etc with the residues being fed to animals.

Most of the soy imported here comes from the US btw

https://mobile.twitter.com/donlayman/status/1188124117230333952?s=19

And if I had a cent for everytime someone has had to point this out when these facts are used incorrectly I'd be stinking rich!

Dismaying indeed it's still being repeated...

From your link;

"About 85 percent of the world’s soybeans are processed, or "crushed," annually into soybean meal and oil. Approximately 98 percent of the soybean meal that is crushed is further processed into animal feed with the balance used to make soy flour and proteins. Of the oil fraction, 95 percent is consumed as edible oil; the rest is used for industrial products such as fatty acids, soaps and biodiesel."

85% of the world's soybeans are crushed into soybean meal and oil. 98% of the soybean meal crushed is then further processed into animal feed. Unless I am missing something, 95% of the 85% is turned into animal feed. Can you clarify?

mathie · 14-01-2020 03:44PM

gozunda wrote: »

Incorrect. What the revious poster stated is largely true.

What you are quoting is an opinion piece from a newspaper which receives funding from plant food industry interests to publish paid for media content.

Here is the real data from the UNs Food and Agriculture Organisation (FAO)

http://www.fao.org/ag/againfo/home/en/news_archive/2017_More_Fuel_for_the_Food_Feed.html

You will also find that globally the biggest emitters of greenhouse gases is fossil fuel in energy production and transport. Agriculture makes up approx 30% of global ghgs and that covers all types of agriculture, arable, horticultural and animal and more that production importantly feeds people.

Interestingly according to the EPA - transports contribution to ghgs has increased 37% since 1990. And Agriculture contribution has increased by just 1%. Over the same period.

And that is the biggest issue with this whole plant based promotion thing - much of it is based on misinformation and then gets passed on.

The Guardian is an Opinion Piece now?
The article was based on a publication in Science (a peer reviewed journal)

BBC did a piece on it too.

So to say "Veganism is no greater shakes than meat in terms of land usage" is untrue.

We now group products by their primary dietary role and express impacts per unit of primary nutritional benefit (Fig. 1 and fig. S3). Immediately apparent in our results is the high variation in impact among both products and producers. Ninetieth-percentile GHG emissions of beef are 105 kg of CO2eq per 100 g of protein, and land use (area multiplied by years occupied) is 370 m2∙year. These values are 12 and 50 times greater than 10th-percentile dairy beef impacts (which we report separately given that its production is tied to milk demand). Tenth-percentile GHG emissions and land use of dairy beef are then 36 and 6 times greater than those of peas. High variation within and between protein-rich products is also manifest in acidification, eutrophication, and water use.

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/360/6392/987

Which Diet Has the Least Environmental Impact on
Our Planet? A Systematic Review of Vegan,
Vegetarian and Omnivorous Diets

https://www.mdpi.com/2071-1050/11/15/4110/pdf

The environmental impact on land and water also differs among the three diets. Water use is
higher in LOV and OMN diets, due to the use of animal-based proteins. In short, the more animal
protein consumed in a diet, the higher the water use will be. A diet pattern based only of foods of
plant origin offers the greatest potential for reduced global water consumption. Furthermore, livestock
farming uses 70% of agricultural land overall and a third of arable land. On this account, a vegan diet
has the lowest land use and water use of the three different diets.
In conclusion, a 100% plant-based diet (e.g., vegan) has the least environmental impact. Therefore,
this review further supports the wealth of existing evidence supporting a transition to a more sustainable
food system and food consumption. Still, it is important to note that, in order for a 100% plant-based
diet to be sustainable, local products that minimize the environmental impact of transport should be
preferred.

Thelonious Monk · 14-01-2020 03:47PM

mathie wrote: »

The Guardian is an Opinion Piece now?

The funny thing is, I've seen him quote Guardian articles when it suited his agenda.

Thelonious Monk · 14-01-2020 04:01PM

Also this thing about most soy being produced for human consumption and the run off being used to feed animals...

https://www.canr.msu.edu/news/where_do_all_these_soybeans_go

https://www.ucsusa.org/resources/soybeans

https://www.truthordrought.com/soybean-myths

https://globalforestatlas.yale.edu/amazon/land-use/soy

Everything on the internet seems to say a tiny percentage is used for human/biofuel consumption. It's mostly grown to feed animals.

gozunda · 14-01-2020 04:03PM

Assetbacked wrote: »

...
85% of the world's soybeans are crushed into soybean meal and oil. 98% of the soybean meal crushed is then further processed into animal feed. Unless I am missing something, 95% of the 85% is turned into animal feed. Can you clarify?

No worries.

Soya beans are grown primarily for oil extraction and globally is the most valuable food oil on the world market. The main buyers of this oil is China and the far east.

Take a single bean - crush it for its oil and you get approx 15*% (approx) oil. That's the most valuable bit of the bean - gram for gram.

What is left over after oil extraction (approx 85% of that bean) is called soy meal. And 98% of the soy meal is them used for various animal feeds including pet foods. So to put it simply soy beans are grown for oil and the left overs are used for animal feed.

The process is better explained here.

https://mobile.twitter.com/donlayman/status/1188124117230333952?s=19

From the FAO link above

A new study by FAO and published in Global Food Security found that livestock rely primarily on forages, crop residues and by-products that are not edible to humans and that certain production systems contribute directly to global food security, as they produce more highly valuable nutrients for humans, such as proteins, than they consume.

“I came to realize that people are continually exposed to incorrect information about livestock and the environment that is repeated without being challenged, in particular about livestock feed,” says Anne Mottet, Livestock Development Officer at FAO. “There is currently no official and complete international database on what livestock eat. This study contributes to fill this gap and to provide peer-reviewed evidence to better inform policy makers and the public.”...

If not consumed by livestock, crop residues and by-products could quickly become an environmental burden as the human population grows and consumes more and more processed food.

Thelonious Monk · 14-01-2020 04:10PM

That Don Layman bloke seems to just post things that are anti plant based diet. This is why I'm beginning to fail to see the point in discussions on the internet. You can just find quacks out there to back up any side of any argument and choose it to be the truth.

s7ryf3925pivug · 14-01-2020 04:10PM

Great this is now another generic veganism after hours thread.

Need a "Talking sh!t about veganism" subforum.

Or just a blog by Gozunda called 'I ****ing hate vegans, the loudmouthed pricks'.

gozunda · 14-01-2020 04:14PM

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Also this thing about most soy being produced for human consumption and the run off being used to feed animals... Everything on the internet seems to say a tiny percentage is used for human/biofuel consumption. It's mostly grown to feed animals.

Run off? What is run off?

Again soy beans are primarily grown for their oil content. What is left over after extraction is soy meal. And yes the amount oil extracted from each bean is indeed small. Not a fan of soy myself tbh.

It remains Soy oil is the most valuable food oil on the planet. It is also the number one oil in terms of production volumes worldwide.

It's really not that hard to understand.

Btw 'this Don Layman bloke' is Professor of Nutrition (emeritus) University of Illinois.

Thelonious Monk · 14-01-2020 04:17PM

gozunda wrote: »

Run off? What is run off????

I meant byproduct or whatever. Anyway, on the one hand we have you, a cattle farmer of some sort, saying it's all grown for human consumption, and on the other hand I have the whole internet saying otherwise, apart from those with vested interests in animal farming.
So who knows f*cking anything any more...

IAMAMORON · 14-01-2020 04:18PM

I find vegans and the concept of veganism terrifying.

Fools.

There is nothing to see here, a totally vegan diet will cause you to lose a lot of weight and it will create deficiencies in your diet. Drinking almond milk will not give you the same nutrition for your ovaries than drinking animal milk.

Eating seeds and fruit will keep you alive, but you should really try to eat more bacon sarnies , with loads of ketchup and scoff the odd steak, it is for your health.

seamus · 14-01-2020 04:21PM

IAMAMORON wrote: »

I find vegans and the concept of veganism terrifying.

Fools.

There is nothing to see here, a totally vegan diet will cause you to lose a lot of weight and it will create deficiencies in your diet. Drinking almond milk will not give you the same nutrition for your ovaries than drinking animal milk.

Eating seeds and fruit will keep you alive, but you should really try to eat more bacon sarnies , with loads of ketchup and scoff the odd steak, it is for your health.

I don't have ovaries, and I could stand to lose some weight.

So I'm golden, right. Thanks!

Deebles McBeebles · 14-01-2020 04:23PM

Johanna Helpful Backstroke wrote: »

Great this is now another generic veganism after hours thread.

Need a "Talking sh!t about veganism" subforum.

Or just a blog by Gozunda called 'I ****ing hate vegans, the loudmouthed pricks'.

Agree completely that its been done to death. There is an awful lot of uninformed hate for a diet. Its actually not worth reading these threads once you've seen one.

mathie · 14-01-2020 04:24PM

IAMAMORON wrote: »

I find vegans and the concept of veganism terrifying.

Fools.

There is nothing to see here, a totally vegan diet will cause you to lose a lot of weight and it will create deficiencies in your diet. Drinking almond milk will not give you the same nutrition for your ovaries than drinking animal milk.

"In weight loss, pure calorie counting is what matters most -- not the nutritional value of the food.

The premise held up: On his 'convenience store diet,' he shed 27 pounds in two months."

https://edition.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/11/08/twinkie.diet.professor/index.html

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Eating seeds and fruit will keep you alive, but you should really try to eat more bacon sarnies , with loads of ketchup and scoff the odd steak, it is for your health.

Probably not though

Thelonious Monk · 14-01-2020 04:25PM

Deebles McBeebles wrote: »

Agree completely that its been done to death. There is an awful lot of uninformed hate for a diet. Its actually not worth reading these threads once you've seen one.

I've also seen posters comment on vegans that I otherwise had respect for. I remember one poster who I always liked came on and described vegans as "absolute cretins" for no apparent reason. It's bizarre. It's not too dissimilar as the hatred out there for cyclists, they could be in the same venn diagram.

mathie · 14-01-2020 04:28PM

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I've also seen posters comment on vegans that I otherwise had respect for. I remember one poster who I always liked came on and described vegans as "absolute cretins" for no apparent reason. It's bizarre. It's not too dissimilar as the hatred out there for cyclists, they could be in the same venn diagram.

This link will cause them to implode so ...

gozunda · 14-01-2020 04:29PM

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I meant byproduct or whatever. Anyway, on the one hand we have you, a cattle farmer of some sort, saying it's all grown for human consumption, and on the other hand I have the whole internet saying otherwise, unless they have vested interests in animal farming.
So who knows f*cking anything any more...

And again you are incorrect. But no matter. But yes its an area I have studied in depth thanks.

But yes soy is grown for oil. That oil gets extracted and what is left over gets fed to animals.

Your 'whole internet' is a random google of websites some of which are vegan ones lol. Good work there btw

And yes the information is derived from an actual industry source - but hey believe yourself if you wish. I have no hand in soy oil growing or otherwise

And I'm not a fan of soy btw. Interestingly whilst the biggest proportion of soy is grown in the United Stares - I am against it being grown in the Amazon.

But don't let any of that impact on the constant anti farming tirade found in your comments

Effects · 14-01-2020 04:29PM

Cantona's Collars wrote: »

Google not working for you?

Why would I use google to back up your claims? Can't you help me out seeing as you know all about it and I don't?

the beer revolu · 14-01-2020 04:30PM

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I've also seen posters comment on vegans that I otherwise had respect for. I remember one poster who I always liked came on and described vegans as "absolute cretins" for no apparent reason. It's bizarre. It's not too dissimilar as the hatred out there for cyclists, they could be in the same venn diagram.

I suspect a venn diagram of:

People who hate vegans.
People who hate cyclists.
People who think alcohol breath tests in the morning are unfair.

Big common crossover, I think.

Deebles McBeebles · 14-01-2020 04:31PM

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I've also seen posters comment on vegans that I otherwise had respect for. I remember one poster who I always liked came on and described vegans as "absolute cretins" for no apparent reason. It's bizarre. It's not too dissimilar as the hatred out there for cyclists, they could be in the same venn diagram.

Maybe its health. People hate healthy people as much as they hate the fat ones using foodbanks :pac:

14-01-2020 04:32PM

I think what rubs people up the wrong way about the vegans is the self righteous pontification aspect of it..

Kind of the same as the green agenda, and the "progressives"..

I'd kind of wanted to move towards cutting down on meat anyway myself a couple of times, but that video is just disturbing..yeah, people are saying these are only a few, but the deterioration is pretty visible..

Unearthly · 14-01-2020 04:33PM

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I've also seen posters comment on vegans that I otherwise had respect for. I remember one poster who I always liked came on and described vegans as "absolute cretins" for no apparent reason. It's bizarre. It's not too dissimilar as the hatred out there for cyclists, they could be in the same venn diagram.

I am both. I'm wondering what else I could do just to annoy after hours even more for the laugh.

Perhaps i could go on the dole and become a male feminist

Thelonious Monk · 14-01-2020 04:34PM

gozunda wrote: »

And again you are incorrect. But no matter. But yes its an area I have studied in depth thanks.

But yes soy is grown for oil. That oil gets extracted and what is eft over gets fed to animals.

Your 'whole internet' btw is a random google of websites some of which are vegan websites lol. Good work there btw

And yes the information is derived from an actual industry source - but hey believe yourself if you wish. I have no hand in soy oil growing or otherwise

And I'm not a fan of soy btw. Interestingly whilst the biggest proportion of soy is grown in the United Stares - I am against it being grown in the Amazon.

But don't let any of that impact on the constant anti farming tirade found in your comments

Well I don't believe you for a second. You posted a Twitter link above from someone where every one of his tweets is anti-plant diet. It's fine, it's your livelihood.
It would be nice to get a definitive answer on soy growth once and for all however.

mathie · 14-01-2020 04:36PM

gozunda wrote: »

And again you are incorrect. But no matter. But yes its an area I have studied in depth thanks.

But yes soy is grown for oil. That oil gets extracted and what is eft over gets fed to animals.

Your 'whole internet' btw is a random google of websites some of which are vegan websites lol. Good work there btw

And yes the information is derived from an actual industry source - but hey believe yourself if you wish. I have no hand in soy oil growing or otherwise

And I'm not a fan of soy btw. Interestingly whilst the biggest proportion of soy is grown in the United Stares - I am against it being grown in the Amazon.

But don't let any of that impact on the constant anti farming tirade found in your comments

It's not just soy that's used to feed livestock though.

The ratios below are the crux of the issue.

An environmental analyst and longtime critic of waste and inefficiency in agricultural practices, Pimentel depicted grain-fed livestock farming as a costly and nonsustainable way to produce animal protein. He distinguished grain-fed meat production from pasture-raised livestock, calling cattle-grazing a more reasonable use of marginal land.

Animal protein production requires more than eight times as much fossil-fuel energy than production of plant protein while yielding animal protein that is only 1.4 times more nutritious for humans than the comparable amount of plant protein, according to the Cornell ecologist's analysis.

Tracking food animal production from the feed trough to the dinner table, Pimentel found broiler chickens to be the most efficient use of fossil energy, and beef, the least. Chicken meat production consumes energy in a 4:1 ratio to protein output; beef cattle production requires an energy input to protein output ratio of 54:1. (Lamb meat production is nearly as inefficient at 50:1, according to the ecologist's analysis of U.S. Department of Agriculture statistics. Other ratios range from 13:1 for turkey meat and 14:1 for milk protein to 17:1 for pork and 26:1 for eggs.)

https://news.cornell.edu/stories/1997/08/us-could-feed-800-million-people-grain-livestock-eat

Vegan Death Cult

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