Restoration of Stormont

Mr.Nice Guy · 10-01-2020 12:24am #1

It looks like there is a potential deal on the table for the return of Stormont with the two governments publishing the text of a draft deal.

Initial impressions are that the proposals on languages are very similar to that which the DUP rejected in 2018, while there doesn't appear to have been much done to rework the Petition of Concern to avoid it being abused further in future.

Will it prove the basis for an agreement? The Belfast Telegraph seem to be reporting that the DUP are willing to endorse it. Jamie Bryson isn't happy based on his tweets this evening. I notice Stephen Nolan has tweeted he will be hosting his radio show tomorrow:

https://twitter.com/StephenNolan/status/1215354393098211328

I remember him being a factor in unionism getting spooked out of the proposed deal in 2018, as he let every negative, unionist voice have a platform to berate the ideas. Bryson, Nelson McCausland, Jim Allister and more all on to trash the suggestions. He's been on holiday all week with his stand-in Vinny Hurrel hosting, yet he's returning from his break no doubt to offer more of the same as two years ago. I was hopeful they might get the deal done before he could pour cold water on the plans. Maybe they will manage it all the same. Would be nice to have this sorted before the weekend's out. Credit to Julian Smith and Simon Coveney if they manage to get this over the line.

What do you make of the proposals?

blanch152 · 10-01-2020 12:30am

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

It looks like there is a potential deal on the table for the return of Stormont with the two governments publishing the text of a draft deal.

Initial impressions are that the proposals on languages are very similar to that which the DUP rejected in 2018, while there doesn't appear to have been much done to rework the Petition of Concern to avoid it being abused further in future.

Will it prove the basis for an agreement? The Belfast Telegraph seem to be reporting that the DUP are willing to endorse it. Jamie Bryson isn't happy based on his tweets this evening. I notice Stephen Nolan has tweeted he will be hosting his radio show tomorrow:

https://twitter.com/StephenNolan/status/1215354393098211328

I remember him being a factor in unionism getting spooked out of the proposed deal in 2018, as he let every negative, unionist voice have a platform to berate the ideas. Bryson, Nelson McCausland, Jim Allister and more all on to trash the suggestions. He's been on holiday all week with his stand-in Vinny Hurrel hosting, yet he's returning from his break no doubt to offer more of the same as two years ago. I was hopeful they might get the deal done before he could pour cold water on the plans. Maybe they will manage it all the same. Would be nice to have this sorted before the weekend's out. Credit to Julian Smith and Simon Coveney if they manage to get this over the line.

What do you make of the proposals?

Arlene seems ok with this.

"DUP leader Arlene Foster has said she believes the proposals provide a basis upon which the Stormont Assembly can be re-established "in a fair and balanced way".

In a statement published on her party's website, Ms Foster said it is "not a perfect deal" and there will "always need to be give and take."

She added that elements of the paper will require further scrutiny."

https://www.rte.ie/news/ulster/2020/0109/1105256-stormont-talks/

Blanco100 · 10-01-2020 12:31am

Bryson is absolutely raging.

Calling out the a few DUP heads for being out of touch with Unionists for trying to pass it through, namely Foster and Donaldson.

Not a good day for the hard line unìonist

NIMAN · 10-01-2020 12:35am

Blanco100 wrote: »

Bryson is absolutely raging.

Calling out the a few DUP heads for being out of touch with Unionists for trying to pass it through, namely Foster and Donaldson.

Not a good day for the hard line unist

Its going to be a bad decade and beyond for those folk.

They need to look into changing their approach and attitude, as their time is coming to an end.

NIMAN · 10-01-2020 4:12am

So it looks like a deal may be signed off today.

Amazing how they can work together when an election and potentially more lost votes is threatening them. Not to mention wages.

What happened over the last few days that couldn't have been achieved over the last 3 years?

FrancieBrady · 10-01-2020 8:22am

Anyone got a link to the document?

Phoebas · 10-01-2020 8:32am

https://static.rasset.ie/documents/news/2020/01/new-decade-new-approach.pdf

SharpshooterTom · 10-01-2020 8:55am

There will be a huge backlash within the unionist community over this.

Not just Bryson, but plenty of other unionists going ape sh1t.

https://twitter.com/TonightVMTV/status/1215413910112821249
https://twitter.com/BenLowry2/status/1215412147263504385

L1011 · 10-01-2020 9:07am

That's because they thought Direct Rule was imminent - anything at all to give them grounds to screech will be screeched at

FrancieBrady · 10-01-2020 9:21am

NIMAN wrote: »

So it looks like a deal may be signed off today.

Amazing how they can work together when an election and potentially more lost votes is threatening them. Not to mention wages.

What happened over the last few days that couldn't have been achieved over the last 3 years?

Given this deal or one almost identical was on the table a few years ago, is it that difficult to work out why?

The Irish Language Commissioner and it's separate function from the Commissioner for the Boord O'Ulster Scots will anger many Unionists but I think they will swallow hard on it now that they are in a weaker position.

Can Sinn Fein swallow not getting rid of the Armed Forces Covenant? I am not sure if they will but if 'a committment to ensure introducing legislation' is a new line (I suspect it might be) it might be enough for them in a weaker position too. They were already willing to accept something very very similar to this before.

Barring something out of left field I think this is a done deal.

LuckyLloyd · 10-01-2020 9:21am

Seems to me Arlene and the DUP had no choice. Another assembly election now in the context of the electoral shifts last month would be catastrophic. Hopefully SF are okay with the changes and they get up and running.

Bryson and his ilk automatically baulk at any concessions and Simon Coveney standing outside Stormont telling them what’s what is anathema to them. But so what? It’s the same type of thinking that had them go full bore on Brexit in the way they did. It doesn’t work for them long term but strategy isn’t really their thing - they want the past not the future.

gmisk · 10-01-2020 9:27am

Any sign of the RHI inquiry report?

blanch152 · 10-01-2020 9:55am

NIMAN wrote: »

So it looks like a deal may be signed off today.

Amazing how they can work together when an election and potentially more lost votes is threatening them. Not to mention wages.

What happened over the last few days that couldn't have been achieved over the last 3 years?

You've hit the nail on the head there. I've been predicting for a few weeks that a deal would be done because both DUP and SF are afraid of an election.

DUP boxed clever by coming out in favour early. Difficult for SF to reject it as they will then be seen as bringing it down.

Links to the main points and full document below:

https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/0109/1105434-stormont-proposals-northern-ireland/

https://static.rasset.ie/documents/news/2020/01/new-decade-new-approach.pdf

This is the key section on the languages issue:

"5.23. The Northern Ireland Act 1998 – as the core legislative vehicle which
implements the Belfast (Good Friday) Agreement and subsequent
agreements – will be amended by the introduction and enactment of three
Bills. Draft Bills will be officially published on the day of the formation of the
Executive and presented to the Assembly for consideration within 3 months
of the restoration of the institutions, as part of an integrated package of
legislation that will pass through the legislative process simultaneously. The
three Bills will make provision as follows:
● Northern Ireland Act 1998 (Amendment No 1) Bill
To make provisions to establish the Office of Identity and Cultural
Expression.
● Northern Ireland Act 1998 (Amendment No 2) Bill
To make provisions for the Irish Language.
● Northern Ireland Act 1998 (Amendment No 3) Bill
To make provisions to establish a Commissioner to enhance and
develop the language, arts and literature associated with the Ulster
Scots / Ulster British tradition in Northern Ireland.

5.24. The three Bills will share a common framework through linked references in each Bill to the principles set out in paragraph 5.2 above. It is intended that the Bills will be introduced as part of an integrated package of legislation, and
accordingly no Bill should be regarded as independent from the other two.

5.25. Once enacted by the Assembly, the three Bills will amend the Northern
Ireland Act 1998 by inserting the provisions as new, separate Parts. The Irish
language provisions will form a new [Part X] of the Northern Ireland Act 1998.
The provisions dealing with the second Commissioner will be inserted as
[Part Y]; and provisions dealing with the Office for Identity and Cultural
Expression as [Part Z]."

Sinn Fein had to give some serious ground here. It has always been my belief that the solution to the language issue lay in an integrated approach, and it is clear that the two language commissioners will be part of the same overall legislation. Many on here won't be happy with this, if they stay consistent with their previous positions.

FrancieBrady · 10-01-2020 10:01am

blanch152 wrote: »

DUP boxed clever by coming out in favour early. Difficult for SF to reject it as they will then be seen as bringing it down.

Where have they 'come out in favour'? Link?

Arlene has on several occasions indicated she is happy with something only for it all to go pearshaped later. Previous agreements on restoration similar to this one and on Brexit.

Caution is advised.

SharpshooterTom · 10-01-2020 10:03am

https://twitter.com/CatharineHoey/status/1215397947489300481
She apparantly even came over here to vote DUP in the general election, bit wierd given she's been living in England the past 30 years.

Rodin · 10-01-2020 10:14am

A Commissioner for Ulster Scots?

Such nonsense.

Klingon and Elvish are languages more than Ulster Scots. Should be a commisioner for those too

Kermit.de.frog · 10-01-2020 10:14am

This deal gives the DUP a veto over the Irish language and public services because both first ministers must agree to any new proposals.

Are SF going to agree to that?

FrancieBrady · 10-01-2020 10:28am

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

This deal gives the DUP a veto over the Irish language and public services because both first ministers must agree to any new proposals.

Are SF going to agree to that?

Is that not the way business was always done? Neither can go on a solo run as they are equal positions.

Things will collapse again fairly quickly if either is stubborn.

Kermit.de.frog · 10-01-2020 10:31am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Is that not the way business was always done? Neither can go on a solo run as they are equal positions.

Things will collapse again fairly quickly if either is stubborn.

This is a Unionist veto on what SF said were their fundamental rights.

Are they going to agree to that!?

blanch152 · 10-01-2020 10:31am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Where have they 'come out in favour'? Link?

Arlene has on several occasions indicated she is happy with something only for it all to go pearshaped later. Previous agreements on restoration similar to this one and on Brexit.

Caution is advised.

Have a read of the full statement yourself.

http://www.mydup.com/news/article/the-only-way-forward-is-one-which-is-fair-and-balanced

FrancieBrady · 10-01-2020 10:52am

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

This is a Unionist veto on what SF said were their fundamental rights.

Are they going to agree to that!?

The first and second minister could always veto one another. The system is designed that way so that they are forced to work together.

The First Minister and deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland (Irish: Céad Aire agus an Leas-Chéad Aire Thuaisceart Éireann, Ulster-Scots: Furst Männystèr an Deputy Furst Männystèr o Norlin Airlann) are the joint heads of the Northern Ireland Executive and have overall responsibility for the running of the Executive Office.

The two positions have the same governmental power, resulting in a duumvirate; despite the name, the deputy First Minister is not subordinate to the First Minister. Created under the terms of the 1998 Good Friday Agreement, both were initially nominated and appointed by members of the Northern Ireland Assembly on a joint ticket by a cross-community vote, using consociational principles.

LuckyLloyd · 10-01-2020 10:55am

If the likes of blanch and the DUP want to spin this as a SF climb down and the likes of Jamie Bryson and his ilk see it as a terrible betrayal it’s probably well pitched by the two governments.

Bryson and hard liner loyalists are particularly concerned by the integration of the language provisions into the Northern Ireland constitutional act itself, for example. If blanch sees that as a victory then well and good.

Hopefully a deal gets officially concluded today.

Kermit.de.frog · 10-01-2020 10:58am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The first and second minister could always veto one another. The system is designed that way so that they are forced to work together.

SF said that these were their "fundamental rights".

They are going to hand unionists a veto on those rights.

lol.

No spinning out of this.

blanch152 · 10-01-2020 11:09am

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

If the likes of blanch and the DUP want to spin this as a SF climb down and the likes of Jamie Bryson and his ilk see it as a terrible betrayal it’s probably well pitched by the two governments.

Bryson and hard liner loyalists are particularly concerned by the integration of the language provisions into the Northern Ireland constitutional act itself, for example. If blanch sees that as a victory then well and good.

Hopefully a deal gets officially concluded today.

I am not spinning anything, I am setting out the actual text of the deal and what it means.

There is no standalone Irish Language Act contained in the deal, that is a fact, not a spin.

Blanco100 · 10-01-2020 11:14am

Bryson and his ilk would be disappointed if Unionism got everything they wanted. Their very existence is to play up to the "hardcore" unionists, para's and so forth. They will advocate rejecting everything, unless it brings them back to the apartheid state the North actually was. Their slogan should be no surrender. Any inch given is an epic defeat to the IRA in their eyes. Its an industry in the north to stoke this kind of nonsense.

There are equal culprits on the republican side.They pander to the lowest common denominator, and their political pledges are so primative."We won't let them get one up on us".

Can someone explain the border poll to me? Is it a one off deal?

Surely it would be defeated right now in terms of appetite for it. My question, is why don't the loyalists call the bluff and hold it safe in knowledge it won't pass?

Have to laugh listening to Stephen Nolan, his style of broadcasting also doesn't lend itself to healing any wounds, constantly winding up both sides of their respective climb downs may be funny to listen to, but it keeps these wounds open and makes the parties super sensitive about being seen to be giving ground.

LuckyLloyd · 10-01-2020 11:16am

blanch152 wrote: »

I am not spinning anything, I am setting out the actual text of the deal and what it means.

There is no standalone Irish Language Act contained in the deal, that is a fact, not a spin.

And you see it as a victory and Bryson sees it as a problem and hopefully SF see it as acceptable and then we’ll get to conclude Coveney and his counterpart did a fine job all round.

FrancieBrady · 10-01-2020 11:16am

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

SF said that these were their "fundamental rights".

They are going to hand unionists a veto on those rights.

lol.

No spinning out of this.

It's a curate's egg of a deal. You have Ben Lowry of Unionist newspaper saying they are concerned and the Alison Morris of the Nationalist Newspaper saying it is a better deal overall for Unionism.

I would be mindful of it going pearshaped as grassroots on both sides find out more but I think this deal is home and hosed.
Whether as Lowry says, it can work and keep an execuitve in place is another thing.

blanch152 · 10-01-2020 11:29am

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

And you see it as a victory and Bryson sees it as a problem and hopefully SF see it as acceptable and then we’ll get to conclude Coveney and his counterpart did a fine job all round.

Fact: Sinn Fein sought a standalone Irish Language Act

Fact: Proposed deal does not contain a standalone Irish Language Act

No spin necessary when the facts are clear.

FrancieBrady · 10-01-2020 11:34am

blanch152 wrote: »

Fact: Sinn Fein sought a standalone Irish Language Act

Fact: Proposed deal does not contain a standalone Irish Language Act

No spin necessary when the facts are clear.

You think they shouldn't have compromised?

Scoundrel · 10-01-2020 11:45am

ThomasFlynn wrote: »

https://twitter.com/CatharineHoey/status/1215397947489300481
She apparantly even came over here to vote DUP in the general election, bit wierd given she's been living in England the past 30 years.

The same Kate Hoey who spoke at troops out meetings in the early 70's amazing that she seemed to get dumber as she got older.

SharpshooterTom · 10-01-2020 11:47am

This is why trying to pander to unionism when advocating for a UI is utterly pointless. I'm sorry but it really is.

Varadkar and others try to hold a ceremony to commemorate the RIC and DMP in some wierd attempt thinking it will coax unionists down the line to vote a for UI is completely laughable.

Protestants/Unionists represent just over 50% of the population.

40% of people in the 2011 Census said their nationality was BRITISH ONLY. Thats means the vast majority of them didn't put ANY form of Irish, not even Northern Irish. THE VAST MAJORITY OF THE PUL COMMUNITY DO.NOT.CONSIDER.THEMSELVES.IRISH.PERIOD.

All this talk about Ireland possibly joining the commonwealth to placate unionists, changing the flag, again sorry they're not interested, there's no compromises they're willing to make.

I'm sorry but the only way a UI is going to happen is through an old fashioned 50+1 a sectarian headcount, and of course the CNR population will need to be in the mid-upper 50s creating a buffer incase of any CNR's defect.

Irish nationalists trying to constantly pander to the vast majority of unionists reminds me the Obama administration spending 8 years constantly trying to pander to the GOP, no matter he much he tried Mitch McConnell and the rest of the GOP had no interest in ever working with him. Mary Lou says the OO can march wherever they like in a UI, the OO just laugh at her in response.

You can't force people who don't want to be Irish. If a UI ever happened a massive chunk will emigrate to the UK, it will be akin to white south africa's population collapse since 1980 (18%) to today 2020 (7.9%).

Scoundrel · 10-01-2020 11:49am

Amazing with all this talk of a border poll and a United Ireland that SF would at this time go back into Stormont and prop up the failed northern state?? It makes me think that there are those at leadership level in SF who don't really want a UI.

LuckyLloyd · 10-01-2020 12:16pm

Scoundrel wrote: »

Amazing with all this talk of a border poll and a United Ireland that SF would at this time go back into Stormont and prop up the failed northern state?? It makes me think that there are those at leadership level in SF who don't really want a UI.

As a supporter of a UI, I am very happy for SF to go back into power sharing and to get the provisions of the GFA back up and running again. There is a real payoff ahead from January 2021 when the front stop kicks in and a real division (for the economic advantage of NI) kicks in across the Irish Sea. But in the short term the people of NI need and deserve local representation and it is important that the GFA is functioning as intended.

liamtech · 10-01-2020 12:37pm

Anyone listen to Jamie Bryson on Nolan earlier this morning. Donaldson was also on earlier

In fairness if you check his Twitter feed, it basically exemplifies his opinion

No compromise what so ever
No Irish Language Act
Amend or outright revoke the GFA/Power-Sharing

Granted he is the extreme edition of the current incumbent version of 'Political Unionism/Loyalism', but there will be a large number of supporters who will see this as a sell out

https://twitter.com/JamieBrysonCPNI/status/1215583089411358720

I can only speak for myself but i think the deal is fair enough, and might actually work in getting Stormont up and running again

But if for any reason it doesnt work - i think an election is the best way forward. And the election should require all politicians to make their stance on this deal clear to the electorate

FrancieBrady · 10-01-2020 12:45pm

liamtech wrote: »

I can only speak for myself but i think the deal is fair enough, and might actually work in getting Stormont up and running again

But if for any reason it doesnt work - i think an election is the best way forward. And the election should require all politicians to make their stance on this deal clear to the electorate

I agree, it is as fair as the deal Arlene walked away from before with some tweaks.

I still think equating the Irish Language to Ulster Scots is a massive insult, but in saying that I think an Irish Language Commissioner will very quickly show up that absurdity simply because of the depth and cultural richness he/she has to work with.

Fionn1952 · 10-01-2020 12:47pm

blanch152 wrote: »

Fact: Sinn Fein sought a standalone Irish Language Act

Fact: Proposed deal does not contain a standalone Irish Language Act

No spin necessary when the facts are clear.

Fact: If they had refused to compromise, you'd be the first on here blaming them.

Think you made a fair point on motives though. Election looming, there's nothing about this agreement which couldn't have been put in place years ago. Until the threat of a serious election hammering was in place, neither DUP nor Sinn Fein would budge an inch. Fear greased a few wheels.

I'd echo sentiments that the fact that vocal elements from both sides (the sort of folk who are never happy) are calling it out as a massive coup for 'themmuns' means it's probably somewhere in the middle, and a reasonable compromise.

careless sherpa · 10-01-2020 1:09pm

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Fact: If they had refused to compromise, you'd be the first on here blaming them.

Think you made a fair point on motives though. Election looming, there's nothing about this agreement which couldn't have been put in place years ago. Until the threat of a serious election hammering was in place, neither DUP nor Sinn Fein would budge an inch. Fear greased a few wheels.

I'd echo sentiments that the fact that vocal elements from both sides (the sort of folk who are never happy) are calling it out as a massive coup for 'themmuns' means it's probably somewhere in the middle, and a reasonable compromise.

Who constitutes the vocal elements among the nationalist population?

Scoundrel · 10-01-2020 1:23pm

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

As a supporter of a UI, I am very happy for SF to go back into power sharing and to get the provisions of the GFA back up and running again. There is a real payoff ahead from January 2021 when the front stop kicks in and a real division (for the economic advantage of NI) kicks in across the Irish Sea. But in the short term the people of NI need and deserve local representation and it is important that the GFA is functioning as intended.

They've done just fine without local representation for the last 3 years I doubt the county council on the hill is going to change much as far as I can see this move by SF has killed any momentum behind a border poll why would any soft u Unionist or even well to do nationalist vote for a UI when there's a functioning northern state?

Fionn1952 · 10-01-2020 1:54pm

careless sherpa wrote: »

Who constitutes the vocal elements among the nationalist population?

While theres no one quite as prolific as, say Jamie Bryson for the imbalance between noise and importance, I presume you're not implying these types don't exist in the Nationalist community too?

FrancieBrady · 10-01-2020 1:57pm

Fionn1952 wrote: »

While theres no one quite as prolific as, say Jamie Bryson for the imbalance between noise and importance, I presume you're not implying these types don't exist in the Nationalist community too?

Who is tweeting the same kind of stuff from the Nationalist community? I genuinely can't think of a similar figure.

careless sherpa · 10-01-2020 2:02pm

Fionn1952 wrote: »

While theres no one quite as prolific as, say Jamie Bryson for the imbalance between noise and importance, I presume you're not implying these types don't exist in the Nationalist community too?

I am not saying that there is not but you made the claim that there is a similar commentary on the nationalist side so I am wondering if this is something that you witnessed or is it just a token comment some people feel the need to make about one side being as bad as the other

Fionn1952 · 10-01-2020 2:10pm

careless sherpa wrote: »

I am not saying that there is not but you made the claim that there is a similar commentary on the nationalist side so I am wondering if this is something that you witnessed or is it just a token comment some people feel the need to make about one side being as bad as the other

Well most of my life living there is a fairly broad base of experience, so yes it is something I witnessed regularly.

While he might (bizarrely) have quite a large audience, the way Bryson talks isn't far off many conversations I heard from the other side in The Felons or Roddys while I lived in West Belfast.

I'd go so far as to say that anyone who has lived in the North for any length of time and NOT witnessed this is either living in a bubble or lying.

You're barking up the wrong tree on the, 'one side as bad as eachother' lark and all - I'm quite openly Republican.

FrancieBrady · 10-01-2020 2:15pm

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Well most of my life living there is a fairly broad base of experience, so yes it is something I witnessed regularly.

While he might (bizarrely) have quite a large audience, the way Bryson talks isn't far off many conversations I heard from the other side in The Felons or Roddys while I lived in West Belfast.

I'd go so far as to say that anyone who has lived in the North for any length of time and NOT witnessed this is either living in a bubble or lying.

You're barking up the wrong tree on the, 'one side as bad as eachother' lark and all - I'm quite openly Republican.

I agree you will hear all sorts of comment on the ground. But I think it is important to distinguish that from somebody openly agitating on social media the way Bryson is and Willie Frazer was. Bryson is using his platform to bring dissent together physically too.

I may be out of touch, but I genuinely cannot think of a like figure 'on the other side'

careless sherpa · 10-01-2020 3:03pm

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Well most of my life living there is a fairly broad base of experience, so yes it is something I witnessed regularly.

While he might (bizarrely) have quite a large audience, the way Bryson talks isn't far off many conversations I heard from the other side in The Felons or Roddys while I lived in West Belfast.

I'd go so far as to say that anyone who has lived in the North for any length of time and NOT witnessed this is either living in a bubble or lying.

You're barking up the wrong tree on the, 'one side as bad as eachother' lark and all - I'm quite openly Republican.

I am referring specifically to the deal on offer and your earlier comment

SharpshooterTom · 10-01-2020 3:23pm

Another part which has not been mentioned is the case revolving around Emma DeSouza will be now be changed as eligible family members of the people of Northern Ireland will be able to apply for UK immigration status on broadly on the same terms as the family members of Irish citizens in the UK
https://twitter.com/EmmandJDeSouza/status/1215580853969063941

LuckyLloyd · 10-01-2020 3:29pm

Scoundrel wrote: »

They've done just fine without local representation for the last 3 years I doubt the county council on the hill is going to change much as far as I can see this move by SF has killed any momentum behind a border poll why would any soft u Unionist or even well to do nationalist vote for a UI when there's a functioning northern state?

Well you’re entitled to your strong take on the matter anyway, and it’s unlikely anything I write will change your mind.

There’s currently a health crisis in NI, we’ve had a tragic paramilitary death within the past 12 months, and the front stop provisions due to come into law at the end of the month depend on a functioning assembly.

In the longer term, a UI is based on demographic shifts and the economic and political fortunes of Ireland vs the U.K. over a longer time period. Ireland is a richer and more prosperous country per head for now, and if that continues in the decades to come support for a UI will grow.

A border poll in the short term with the Irish aspect of Brexit resolved is not realistic. But assessment of it or its prospects is not tightly coupled to this deal imo.

Fionn1952 · 10-01-2020 4:18pm

careless sherpa wrote: »

I am referring specifically to the deal on offer and your earlier comment

Have a look on Twitter, no shortage on both sides moaning about Themmuns getting everything.

No idea where you've got the idea that moaning about the other side is somehow unique to Unionists.

FrancieBrady · 10-01-2020 4:25pm

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Have a look on Twitter, no shortage on both sides moaning about Themmuns getting everything.

No idea where you've got the idea that moaning about the other side is somehow unique to Unionists.

There's no shortage of comment from both sides here either. What you haven't demonstrated is that there are figures like Bryson and the late Willie. Bryson is actively recruiting now and holding rallies and meetings.

Fionn1952 · 10-01-2020 4:44pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

There's no shortage of comment from both sides here either. What you haven't demonstrated is that there are figures like Bryson and the late Willie. Bryson is actively recruiting now and holding rallies and meetings.

Why the bejaysus would I demonstrate that?! What does it have to do with the any statements I made?

"I'd echo sentiments that the fact that vocal elements from both sides (the sort of folk who are never happy) are calling it out as a massive coup for 'themmuns' means it's probably somewhere in the middle, and a reasonable compromise."

This is what I was 'pulled up' for. I said vocal elements from both sides were calling it out. I've no idea what relevance you think Bryson has to whether that is an accurate statement (it is). I specifically referenced how bizarrely large Bryson's audience seems to be, so I've no idea how you pulled from my posts that I was claiming anything to do with a Bryson figure or Frazer figure on the Nationalist side. I think you're having an argument with some imaginary statement, Francie.

FrancieBrady · 10-01-2020 5:03pm

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Why the bejaysus would I demonstrate that?! What does it have to do with the any statements I made?

"I'd echo sentiments that the fact that vocal elements from both sides (the sort of folk who are never happy) are calling it out as a massive coup for 'themmuns' means it's probably somewhere in the middle, and a reasonable compromise."

This is what I was 'pulled up' for. I said vocal elements from both sides were calling it out. I've no idea what relevance you think Bryson has to whether that is an accurate statement (it is). I specifically referenced how bizarrely large Bryson's audience seems to be, so I've no idea how you pulled from my posts that I was claiming anything to do with a Bryson figure or Frazer figure on the Nationalist side. I think you're having an argument with some imaginary statement, Francie.

Keep the hair on.

You said that those 'types' exist in the nationalist community. I said, I wasn't aware of a similar figure agitating and mobilising on social media and asked for an example.
If you are clarifying to say that is not what you meant, that's fine.

blanch152 · 10-01-2020 5:29pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Keep the hair on.

You said that those 'types' exist in the nationalist community. I said, I wasn't aware of a similar figure agitating and mobilising on social media and asked for an example.
If you are clarifying to say that is not what you meant, that's fine.

If the boys in Belfast decide this afternoon not to accept it, I am sure that Twitter will be rife with people agitating and mobilising on social media against it from a nationalist viewpoint. We await the white smoke.

Restoration of Stormont

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