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Restoration of Stormont

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  • 10-01-2020 12:24am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 45,558 ✭✭✭✭


    It looks like there is a potential deal on the table for the return of Stormont with the two governments publishing the text of a draft deal.

    Initial impressions are that the proposals on languages are very similar to that which the DUP rejected in 2018, while there doesn't appear to have been much done to rework the Petition of Concern to avoid it being abused further in future.

    Will it prove the basis for an agreement? The Belfast Telegraph seem to be reporting that the DUP are willing to endorse it. Jamie Bryson isn't happy based on his tweets this evening. I notice Stephen Nolan has tweeted he will be hosting his radio show tomorrow:

    https://twitter.com/StephenNolan/status/1215354393098211328

    I remember him being a factor in unionism getting spooked out of the proposed deal in 2018, as he let every negative, unionist voice have a platform to berate the ideas. Bryson, Nelson McCausland, Jim Allister and more all on to trash the suggestions. He's been on holiday all week with his stand-in Vinny Hurrel hosting, yet he's returning from his break no doubt to offer more of the same as two years ago. I was hopeful they might get the deal done before he could pour cold water on the plans. Maybe they will manage it all the same. Would be nice to have this sorted before the weekend's out. Credit to Julian Smith and Simon Coveney if they manage to get this over the line.

    What do you make of the proposals?


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 27,598 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    It looks like there is a potential deal on the table for the return of Stormont with the two governments publishing the text of a draft deal.

    Initial impressions are that the proposals on languages are very similar to that which the DUP rejected in 2018, while there doesn't appear to have been much done to rework the Petition of Concern to avoid it being abused further in future.

    Will it prove the basis for an agreement? The Belfast Telegraph seem to be reporting that the DUP are willing to endorse it. Jamie Bryson isn't happy based on his tweets this evening. I notice Stephen Nolan has tweeted he will be hosting his radio show tomorrow:

    https://twitter.com/StephenNolan/status/1215354393098211328

    I remember him being a factor in unionism getting spooked out of the proposed deal in 2018, as he let every negative, unionist voice have a platform to berate the ideas. Bryson, Nelson McCausland, Jim Allister and more all on to trash the suggestions. He's been on holiday all week with his stand-in Vinny Hurrel hosting, yet he's returning from his break no doubt to offer more of the same as two years ago. I was hopeful they might get the deal done before he could pour cold water on the plans. Maybe they will manage it all the same. Would be nice to have this sorted before the weekend's out. Credit to Julian Smith and Simon Coveney if they manage to get this over the line.

    What do you make of the proposals?


    Arlene seems ok with this.

    "DUP leader Arlene Foster has said she believes the proposals provide a basis upon which the Stormont Assembly can be re-established "in a fair and balanced way".

    In a statement published on her party's website, Ms Foster said it is "not a perfect deal" and there will "always need to be give and take."

    She added that elements of the paper will require further scrutiny."

    https://www.rte.ie/news/ulster/2020/0109/1105256-stormont-talks/


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,933 ✭✭✭Blanco100


    Bryson is absolutely raging.

    Calling out the a few DUP heads for being out of touch with Unionists for trying to pass it through, namely Foster and Donaldson.

    Not a good day for the hard line unìonist


  • Registered Users Posts: 33,424 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    Blanco100 wrote: »
    Bryson is absolutely raging.

    Calling out the a few DUP heads for being out of touch with Unionists for trying to pass it through, namely Foster and Donaldson.

    Not a good day for the hard line unist

    Its going to be a bad decade and beyond for those folk.

    They need to look into changing their approach and attitude, as their time is coming to an end.


  • Registered Users Posts: 33,424 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    So it looks like a deal may be signed off today.

    Amazing how they can work together when an election and potentially more lost votes is threatening them. Not to mention wages.

    What happened over the last few days that couldn't have been achieved over the last 3 years?


  • Registered Users Posts: 68,392 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Anyone got a link to the document?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,371 ✭✭✭Phoebas




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,017 ✭✭✭SharpshooterTom


    There will be a huge backlash within the unionist community over this.

    Not just Bryson, but plenty of other unionists going ape sh1t.

    https://twitter.com/TonightVMTV/status/1215413910112821249
    https://twitter.com/BenLowry2/status/1215412147263504385


  • Registered Users Posts: 68,514 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    That's because they thought Direct Rule was imminent - anything at all to give them grounds to screech will be screeched at


  • Registered Users Posts: 68,392 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    NIMAN wrote: »
    So it looks like a deal may be signed off today.

    Amazing how they can work together when an election and potentially more lost votes is threatening them. Not to mention wages.

    What happened over the last few days that couldn't have been achieved over the last 3 years?

    Given this deal or one almost identical was on the table a few years ago, is it that difficult to work out why?

    The Irish Language Commissioner and it's separate function from the Commissioner for the Boord O'Ulster Scots will anger many Unionists but I think they will swallow hard on it now that they are in a weaker position.

    Can Sinn Fein swallow not getting rid of the Armed Forces Covenant? I am not sure if they will but if 'a committment to ensure introducing legislation' is a new line (I suspect it might be) it might be enough for them in a weaker position too. They were already willing to accept something very very similar to this before.

    Barring something out of left field I think this is a done deal.


  • Registered Users Posts: 36,270 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    Seems to me Arlene and the DUP had no choice. Another assembly election now in the context of the electoral shifts last month would be catastrophic. Hopefully SF are okay with the changes and they get up and running.

    Bryson and his ilk automatically baulk at any concessions and Simon Coveney standing outside Stormont telling them what’s what is anathema to them. But so what? It’s the same type of thinking that had them go full bore on Brexit in the way they did. It doesn’t work for them long term but strategy isn’t really their thing - they want the past not the future.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 32,464 ✭✭✭✭gmisk


    Any sign of the RHI inquiry report?


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,598 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    NIMAN wrote: »
    So it looks like a deal may be signed off today.

    Amazing how they can work together when an election and potentially more lost votes is threatening them. Not to mention wages.

    What happened over the last few days that couldn't have been achieved over the last 3 years?


    You've hit the nail on the head there. I've been predicting for a few weeks that a deal would be done because both DUP and SF are afraid of an election.

    DUP boxed clever by coming out in favour early. Difficult for SF to reject it as they will then be seen as bringing it down.

    Links to the main points and full document below:

    https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/0109/1105434-stormont-proposals-northern-ireland/

    https://static.rasset.ie/documents/news/2020/01/new-decade-new-approach.pdf

    This is the key section on the languages issue:

    "5.23. The Northern Ireland Act 1998 – as the core legislative vehicle which
    implements the Belfast (Good Friday) Agreement and subsequent
    agreements – will be amended by the introduction and enactment of three
    Bills. Draft Bills will be officially published on the day of the formation of the
    Executive and presented to the Assembly for consideration within 3 months
    of the restoration of the institutions, as part of an integrated package of
    legislation that will pass through the legislative process simultaneously. The
    three Bills will make provision as follows:
    ● Northern Ireland Act 1998 (Amendment No 1) Bill
    To make provisions to establish the Office of Identity and Cultural
    Expression.
    ● Northern Ireland Act 1998 (Amendment No 2) Bill
    To make provisions for the Irish Language.
    ● Northern Ireland Act 1998 (Amendment No 3) Bill
    To make provisions to establish a Commissioner to enhance and
    develop the language, arts and literature associated with the Ulster
    Scots / Ulster British tradition in Northern Ireland.

    5.24. The three Bills will share a common framework through linked references in each Bill to the principles set out in paragraph 5.2 above. It is intended that the Bills will be introduced as part of an integrated package of legislation, and
    accordingly no Bill should be regarded as independent from the other two.

    5.25. Once enacted by the Assembly, the three Bills will amend the Northern
    Ireland Act 1998 by inserting the provisions as new, separate Parts. The Irish
    language provisions will form a new [Part X] of the Northern Ireland Act 1998.
    The provisions dealing with the second Commissioner will be inserted as
    [Part Y]; and provisions dealing with the Office for Identity and Cultural
    Expression as [Part Z]."

    Sinn Fein had to give some serious ground here. It has always been my belief that the solution to the language issue lay in an integrated approach, and it is clear that the two language commissioners will be part of the same overall legislation. Many on here won't be happy with this, if they stay consistent with their previous positions.


  • Registered Users Posts: 68,392 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    blanch152 wrote: »
    DUP boxed clever by coming out in favour early. Difficult for SF to reject it as they will then be seen as bringing it down.

    Where have they 'come out in favour'? Link?

    Arlene has on several occasions indicated she is happy with something only for it all to go pearshaped later. Previous agreements on restoration similar to this one and on Brexit.

    Caution is advised.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,017 ✭✭✭SharpshooterTom


    https://twitter.com/CatharineHoey/status/1215397947489300481
    She apparantly even came over here to vote DUP in the general election, bit wierd given she's been living in England the past 30 years.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,130 ✭✭✭Rodin


    A Commissioner for Ulster Scots?

    Such nonsense.

    Klingon and Elvish are languages more than Ulster Scots. Should be a commisioner for those too


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,630 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    This deal gives the DUP a veto over the Irish language and public services because both first ministers must agree to any new proposals.

    Are SF going to agree to that?


  • Registered Users Posts: 68,392 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    This deal gives the DUP a veto over the Irish language and public services because both first ministers must agree to any new proposals.

    Are SF going to agree to that?

    Is that not the way business was always done? Neither can go on a solo run as they are equal positions.

    Things will collapse again fairly quickly if either is stubborn.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,630 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    Is that not the way business was always done? Neither can go on a solo run as they are equal positions.

    Things will collapse again fairly quickly if either is stubborn.

    This is a Unionist veto on what SF said were their fundamental rights.

    Are they going to agree to that!?


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,598 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Where have they 'come out in favour'? Link?

    Arlene has on several occasions indicated she is happy with something only for it all to go pearshaped later. Previous agreements on restoration similar to this one and on Brexit.

    Caution is advised.

    Have a read of the full statement yourself.

    http://www.mydup.com/news/article/the-only-way-forward-is-one-which-is-fair-and-balanced


  • Registered Users Posts: 68,392 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    This is a Unionist veto on what SF said were their fundamental rights.

    Are they going to agree to that!?

    The first and second minister could always veto one another. The system is designed that way so that they are forced to work together.
    The First Minister and deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland (Irish: Céad Aire agus an Leas-Chéad Aire Thuaisceart Éireann, Ulster-Scots: Furst Männystèr an Deputy Furst Männystèr o Norlin Airlann) are the joint heads of the Northern Ireland Executive and have overall responsibility for the running of the Executive Office.

    The two positions have the same governmental power, resulting in a duumvirate; despite the name, the deputy First Minister is not subordinate to the First Minister. Created under the terms of the 1998 Good Friday Agreement, both were initially nominated and appointed by members of the Northern Ireland Assembly on a joint ticket by a cross-community vote, using consociational principles.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 36,270 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    If the likes of blanch and the DUP want to spin this as a SF climb down and the likes of Jamie Bryson and his ilk see it as a terrible betrayal it’s probably well pitched by the two governments.

    Bryson and hard liner loyalists are particularly concerned by the integration of the language provisions into the Northern Ireland constitutional act itself, for example. If blanch sees that as a victory then well and good.

    Hopefully a deal gets officially concluded today.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,630 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    The first and second minister could always veto one another. The system is designed that way so that they are forced to work together.

    SF said that these were their "fundamental rights".

    They are going to hand unionists a veto on those rights.

    lol.

    No spinning out of this.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,598 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    If the likes of blanch and the DUP want to spin this as a SF climb down and the likes of Jamie Bryson and his ilk see it as a terrible betrayal it’s probably well pitched by the two governments.

    Bryson and hard liner loyalists are particularly concerned by the integration of the language provisions into the Northern Ireland constitutional act itself, for example. If blanch sees that as a victory then well and good.

    Hopefully a deal gets officially concluded today.

    I am not spinning anything, I am setting out the actual text of the deal and what it means.

    There is no standalone Irish Language Act contained in the deal, that is a fact, not a spin.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,933 ✭✭✭Blanco100


    Bryson and his ilk would be disappointed if Unionism got everything they wanted. Their very existence is to play up to the "hardcore" unionists, para's and so forth. They will advocate rejecting everything, unless it brings them back to the apartheid state the North actually was. Their slogan should be no surrender. Any inch given is an epic defeat to the IRA in their eyes. Its an industry in the north to stoke this kind of nonsense.

    There are equal culprits on the republican side.They pander to the lowest common denominator, and their political pledges are so primative."We won't let them get one up on us".

    Can someone explain the border poll to me? Is it a one off deal?

    Surely it would be defeated right now in terms of appetite for it. My question, is why don't the loyalists call the bluff and hold it safe in knowledge it won't pass?

    Have to laugh listening to Stephen Nolan, his style of broadcasting also doesn't lend itself to healing any wounds, constantly winding up both sides of their respective climb downs may be funny to listen to, but it keeps these wounds open and makes the parties super sensitive about being seen to be giving ground.


  • Registered Users Posts: 36,270 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    blanch152 wrote: »
    I am not spinning anything, I am setting out the actual text of the deal and what it means.

    There is no standalone Irish Language Act contained in the deal, that is a fact, not a spin.

    And you see it as a victory and Bryson sees it as a problem and hopefully SF see it as acceptable and then we’ll get to conclude Coveney and his counterpart did a fine job all round.


  • Registered Users Posts: 68,392 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    SF said that these were their "fundamental rights".

    They are going to hand unionists a veto on those rights.

    lol.

    No spinning out of this.

    It's a curate's egg of a deal. You have Ben Lowry of Unionist newspaper saying they are concerned and the Alison Morris of the Nationalist Newspaper saying it is a better deal overall for Unionism.

    I would be mindful of it going pearshaped as grassroots on both sides find out more but I think this deal is home and hosed.
    Whether as Lowry says, it can work and keep an execuitve in place is another thing.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,598 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    And you see it as a victory and Bryson sees it as a problem and hopefully SF see it as acceptable and then we’ll get to conclude Coveney and his counterpart did a fine job all round.

    Fact: Sinn Fein sought a standalone Irish Language Act

    Fact: Proposed deal does not contain a standalone Irish Language Act

    No spin necessary when the facts are clear.


  • Registered Users Posts: 68,392 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Fact: Sinn Fein sought a standalone Irish Language Act

    Fact: Proposed deal does not contain a standalone Irish Language Act

    No spin necessary when the facts are clear.

    You think they shouldn't have compromised?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭Scoundrel


    https://twitter.com/CatharineHoey/status/1215397947489300481
    She apparantly even came over here to vote DUP in the general election, bit wierd given she's been living in England the past 30 years.

    The same Kate Hoey who spoke at troops out meetings in the early 70's amazing that she seemed to get dumber as she got older.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,017 ✭✭✭SharpshooterTom


    This is why trying to pander to unionism when advocating for a UI is utterly pointless. I'm sorry but it really is.

    Varadkar and others try to hold a ceremony to commemorate the RIC and DMP in some wierd attempt thinking it will coax unionists down the line to vote a for UI is completely laughable.

    Protestants/Unionists represent just over 50% of the population.

    40% of people in the 2011 Census said their nationality was BRITISH ONLY. Thats means the vast majority of them didn't put ANY form of Irish, not even Northern Irish. THE VAST MAJORITY OF THE PUL COMMUNITY DO.NOT.CONSIDER.THEMSELVES.IRISH.PERIOD.

    All this talk about Ireland possibly joining the commonwealth to placate unionists, changing the flag, again sorry they're not interested, there's no compromises they're willing to make.

    I'm sorry but the only way a UI is going to happen is through an old fashioned 50+1 a sectarian headcount, and of course the CNR population will need to be in the mid-upper 50s creating a buffer incase of any CNR's defect.

    Irish nationalists trying to constantly pander to the vast majority of unionists reminds me the Obama administration spending 8 years constantly trying to pander to the GOP, no matter he much he tried Mitch McConnell and the rest of the GOP had no interest in ever working with him. Mary Lou says the OO can march wherever they like in a UI, the OO just laugh at her in response.

    You can't force people who don't want to be Irish. If a UI ever happened a massive chunk will emigrate to the UK, it will be akin to white south africa's population collapse since 1980 (18%) to today 2020 (7.9%).


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