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Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread XI (The Finals Countdown)
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Are the players not contracted to the provinces? I know they ultimately are owned by the irfu but the employer is the province.
No, everyone is contracted to the IRFU I believe.
If I was told I had to move to Limerick from Dublin there is an decent chance I'd take a better offer in London instead. You can only do so much.0 -
No, everyone is contracted to the IRFU I believe.
If I was told I had to move to Galway from Limerick there is an decent chance I'd take a better offer in London instead. You can only do so much.
I think ultimately if it was as easy as people here think then it would be happening a lot but we’ve seen people like Connors have been asked and knocked it back. In his case he’s backed himself to make it where he wants to be and you’d have to admire that. I’d say if I was a young lad and even more unlikely good enough to play pro, I’d want to be at Leinster for as long as possible because I’d feel I was giving myself the best shot at making it at the very top with options to move if it’s not working out but if I went elsewhere early it would be unlikely I’d get back to Leinster as they are far more likely to replace me with a Young up and comer.0 -
irishbucsfan wrote: »We should do a better job of sharing those resources we have, not look to aggressively steal those resources from schools who feed into other sports. Especially in areas where rugby already carries a seriously poor reputation.
Leinster are very very lucky to have the schools they have. They do an extremely good job of converting that raw talent into the end product but they should also be expected to support other provinces where their supplies are shorter
It's a business, not great to have to supply provinces like Munster.
Especially when the likes of Hodnet could have had more game time.0 -
to my mind, the other negative to leaving Leinster (particularly for Connacht) is the lack of positive experiences for people who did make the leap looking for gametime. (All be it with a lot of other complexities)
Beirne,
Conway (although he'd arguably made the breakthrough at leinster just as he left)
Cooney (eventually)
These are the good news stories, maybe a few more. But the last decade is littered with people who left Leinster and never moved on with the additional gametime as they would have hoped. Even look at Madigan, he had the ambition and got the big money marquee move, and is now seeing his career stagnant at a mid table English club.
Quinn Roux another one. I'm sure there are others. But international honours wouldn't be the sole carrot, there are tonnes of lads who could have faded to obscurity at Leinster but moved and became key players at other provinces, no doubt their wages and options increased accordingly.0 -
The IRFU is missing a trick on the mine that are the Leinster schools though, in allowing Leinster to limit the academy to a size that is required simply for the Leinster team itself.
Leinster is effectively 2/3rds of the Irish rugby source material. So the IRFU should be subsidising Leinster more to enable a tripling of their intake of young players. Who can later be reallocated to the other provinces : Ulster and Munster primarily, and Connacht as a holding pattern or greater game time opportunity for lesser players where there is a long queue ahead of them.
But the real success of the Leinster academy is the raw material it gets from the schools. Targeting 2 schools in each of Munster and Leinster as schools of excellence, capable of bringing talent to the level of the Leinster schools, should be a key strategy. The Blackrock/Michaels/Clongowes template can be replicated. It would take top quality coaching, fitness, skills development etc, but the returns for the focused investment would be terrific.0 -
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An employer who considers that they "control" their employees and that treats those employees as assets that can be moved about at will wont have much success, because these players are human beings. It is also not the IRFUs job to make the provinces as strong as they can be. If it was then the provinces wouldnt have their own governance structures etc. The IRFU dont "give" Leinster players from Leinster. Almost everything in this post is either wrong or woefully off base. I'm surprised I'm 3even replying.
This is literally their job. They own all 4 teams, they are responsible.
Of course, they're pretty terrible at it, a side effect of owning 4 sides that compete against each other. No way they can possibly act in the best interests of their 4 teams, which is exactly why this nonsense is not allowed in normal sporting setups.
And of course the IRFU give Leinster players. The IRFU own Leinster, the IRFU pay the players, the IRFU decides who plays for Leinster, there's no other definition for it. The provinces stopped being representative teams years ago.0 -
Quinn Roux another one. I'm sure there are others. But international honours wouldn't be the sole carrot, there are tonnes of lads who could have faded to obscurity at Leinster but moved and became key players at other provinces, no doubt their wages and options increased accordingly.
Jeremy Loughman likely wouldn’t have gotten the exposure he has had he stayed at Leinster either. It’s a judgment call really like anything. There are guys who sticking around works out for and there are guys who end up at 28/29 having not played much beyond league games when the first string isn’t available.
Personally I would think if you’re 23 plus and not first squad member it might be time to move on. But then there are guys who are probably content to be wider squad members, from Dublin, settled there, etc and don’t see anything wrong with that either.0 -
This is literally their job. They own all 4 teams, they are responsible.
Of course, they're pretty terrible at it, a side effect of owning 4 sides that compete against each other. No way they can possibly act in the best interests of their 4 teams, which is exactly why this nonsense is not allowed in normal sporting setups.
And of course the IRFU give Leinster players. The IRFU own Leinster, the IRFU pay the players, the IRFU decides who plays for Leinster, there's no other definition for it. The provinces stopped being representative teams years ago.
Is it their primary job though?
Surely the national team's success is paramount, then comes the provinces.0 -
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Personally would MUCH rather that the IRFU just support the provinces and provide them with the resources they need (financially and structurally) than start meddling with the running of the provinces and the teams. Just look at what the WRU is doing with the Dragons.0
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And of course the IRFU give Leinster players. The IRFU own Leinster, the IRFU pay the players, the IRFU decides who plays for Leinster, there's no other definition for it. The provinces stopped being representative teams years ago.
They may not be representative teams in full, but to deny that they have an important representative role is a bit stupid. The kids in Leinster want to join the Leinster academy and then team. Its up to the other provinces to drag them away. It's not like strong academy candidate from other provinces are gravitating towards Leinster because of their success.0 -
leinster dont really want/need to expand their academy to much bigger than they have. Leinster is producing very large amounts of players through the schools who can do a lot more than most because of resources financially and numerically.The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »The IRFU is missing a trick on the mine that are the Leinster schools though, in allowing Leinster to limit the academy to a size that is required simply for the Leinster team itself.
Leinster is effectively 2/3rds of the Irish rugby source material. So the IRFU should be subsidising Leinster more to enable a tripling of their intake of young players. Who can later be reallocated to the other provinces : Ulster and Munster primarily, and Connacht as a holding pattern or greater game time opportunity for lesser players where there is a long queue ahead of them.
But the real success of the Leinster academy is the raw material it gets from the schools. Targeting 2 schools in each of Munster and Leinster as schools of excellence, capable of bringing talent to the level of the Leinster schools, should be a key strategy. The Blackrock/Michaels/Clongowes template can be replicated. It would take top quality coaching, fitness, skills development etc, but the returns for the focused investment would be terrific.
Targeting schools in Munster and ulster isnt the answer. The schools set up in Munster is ok but most schools are non fer paying with coaches mainly teachers bar a few teams per school unlike many schools in leinster
Blackrock/Michael's next spend thousands and thousands each year on rugby. What they do cant be replicated at all.
the connacht academy has shown on rugby perspective it's as good as many others all round. Evidence of progression of quite few from connacht and what many say about Carolan and others who've been running academy out west shows moving is def worth itIts really not that simple. For one most of these guys are from Dublin and are based there for college etc. Moving to Connacht doesn't guarantee better development either, in fact there is little evidence of it. If anything the evidence points to staying at Leinster benefiting their development further.
connacht have tie ins with NUIG, I'm sure leinster are with UCD, Munster work wih UL. Better salaries? Not sure how affordable that would beirishbucsfan wrote: »It is possible for the IRFU to convince guys to move to other academies. If they partner with universities and offer better salaries players will move. Draft systems in America, Europe and Australia cover this. It would just require a lot more investment and management and who knows if that’s even remotely affordable. Until then it’s grand
they are associated with them. NUIG sponsor the connacht academy.Squidgy Black wrote: »Connacht and Munster are both associated with universities (NUIG and UL) I believe. Not sure about Ulster.
But the salary and accommodation is definitely one of the bigger hurdles for academy players to move, full academy spots are usually only worth around €15k which isn't a great amount of money to encourage an 18/19 year old to uproot everything and live off for 3 years.
many players live in houses with connections to the club they play with. Few guys I knew in limerick were like that and lived in a 'garryowen' 'shannon's house.. .Rigor Mortis wrote: »If accommodation is a serious issue buying a few houses in Salthill / Limerick can solve that. Thats not rocket science. Food can also be supplied cost effectively
that's a real unfair and completely untrue comparison with sarries. It's completely right that leinster have first choice on the players developed within their schools and clubs. It is as fair as it can be unless you totally ignore the provincial backgrounds of people and can we totally dilute the provincial set up? Leinster will dominate and should have for all of pro rugby but didnt as they didnt have their house in order for quite some time.RobbieRuns wrote: »I am loving the reaction. I would correct lots who are calling Leinster one of the best teams in Europe, it is the best team in Europe, bar none at the moment. My argument is not about academy players, it is about any player available, it is about the spread of talent at our disposal.
Let me go for it from another angle. If the employer (the IRFU) has the ability and power (as it pays the wages) to control its employees and a responsibility to make every club in the country as strong as it can, it is failing. So I would agree with those who say that deep down that the IRFU does not care, or it is doing a bad job because every other club outside Leinster is reliant on Leinster players going there (Ulster in particular have improved after a big influx), they are not developing home grown players, they are developing mostly Leinster players, because they will always have the first option on their own talent and all the numbers are in Leinster.
It is not a level playing field. If it was a draft system, Leinster would still take the first picks on every position but then have to give up some of the lower picks....... they do not do that, they keep them.That is not a slight on Leinster, they do a magnificent job as we all see, but it is on the IRFU.
The IRFU have turned Leinster into the Saracens of Irish rugby ! (Cue reaction) They give them first, second, third, and probably fourth choice picks of the talent available, because they are in there to begin with, If the clubs paid every player themselves, raised money themselves it would be fine, but if the contracts are IRFU ones then it is definitely not a level playing field and Leinster will dominate for many years to come.
Leinster keep any players they really want or cant afford to lose in nearly all situations. Anyone else can go to other provinces or abroad after that
what resources more do you want provided and from where do we get all this extra funding?Squidgy Black wrote: »Personally would MUCH rather that the IRFU just support the provinces and provide them with the resources they need (financially and structurally) than start meddling with the running of the provinces and the teams. Just look at what the WRU is doing with the Dragons.0 -
They may not be representative teams in full, but to deny that they have an important representative role is a bit stupid. The kids in Leinster want to join the Leinster academy and then team. Its up to the other provinces to drag them away. It's not like strong academy candidate from other provinces are gravitating towards Leinster because of their success.
Not exactly academy prospects but I can tell you from personal experience there are young fellas from outside Leinster gravitating towards the setup via the schools.0 -
This. They are there to support the provinces, not to run them. The responsibility for making the provinces "as strong as they can be" lies with the provinces. End of.
They run them. The head coach and CEO of every province is a subordinate of someone at the IRFU.
They tell them who they can and cannot sign. They tell them who they can and cannot play. Under no definition is this anything other than running the show.0 -
They may not be representative teams in full, but to deny that they have an important representative role is a bit stupid. The kids in Leinster want to join the Leinster academy and then team. Its up to the other provinces to drag them away. It's not like strong academy candidate from other provinces are gravitating towards Leinster because of their success.
The IRFU also didnt set up and do not run the schools. They didnt set Leinsters borders or set Dublin as the capital city. Its bizarre to claim that the IRFU give Leinster players. Really, really bizarre. The players come from the geographical province through a set up created by Leinster into an Academy and senior team run by Leinster.0 -
The IRFU also didnt set up and do not run the schools. They didnt set Leinsters borders or set Dublin as the capital city. Its bizarre to claim that the IRFU give Leinster players. Really, really bizarre. The players come from the geographical province through a set up created by Leinster into an Academy and senior team run by Leinster.
Paid for by the IRFU and the rich parents of the Leinster area. Leinster would of course not exist without their owners, and just like every single other rugby club on the planet, Leinster are provided with players by the owners, i.e. the people keeping the lights on.0 -
They run them. The head coach and CEO of every province is a subordinate of someone at the IRFU.
They tell them who they can and cannot sign. They tell them who they can and cannot play. Under no definition is this anything other than running the show.
Does that actually happen for indigenous players? I dont think it does tbh. The provinces have a budget that they have to stick to and the IRFU get involved in foreign player signings but that's it AFAIK.0 -
Does that actually happen for indigenous players? I dont think it does tbh. The provinces have a budget that they have to stick to and the IRFU get involved in foreign player signings but that's it AFAIK.
Doesn't matter if it's indigenous players or not. Provinces do not have autonomy, they have limited authority over what they do, they are entirely subordinate to the will and whim of the IRFU.
The IRFU run the provinces in whatever way suits them at any given time.
"Supporting" the provinces would be giving them cash and letting them do as they please.0 -
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Doesn't matter if it's indigenous players or not. Provinces do not have autonomy, they have limited authority over what they do, they are entirely subordinate to the will and whim of the IRFU.
The IRFU run the provinces in whatever way suits them at any given time.
"Supporting" the provinces would be giving them cash and letting them do as they please.
The IRFU might just be the most competent and organised of any of the national rugby bodies.
And yet you are consistently highly critical of them. Bizarre.0 -
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Hard to think what the best approach to it is. Leinster have clear inherent advantages over the rest that make for an uneven playing field. But without the dissolution of the provincial system and a move to a draft style system it’ll never be equal. Nor should it. Pro sport isn’t equal in every facet. It would be probably more unfair if the system dictated Leinster put the time and effort into developing these youths and then when academy time comes its a totally open system.
A way of incentivising more players to move is needed but it’s natural that anyone with aspirations will want to give their home province a proper crack first. They may be pro clubs but tribal lines do still play a role in the mental and emotional side. It’s going to be guys told they’ve no future at a club or fringe internationals. Hopefully the net widens as more and more cases prove to be a success.
Not fully comfortable with an increased IRFU role in it all though. Pro14 is enough of a joke without unions deciding who plays for who on top of when they can play0 -
Hard to think what the best approach to it is. Leinster have clear inherent advantages over the rest that make for an uneven playing field. But without the dissolution of the provincial system and a move to a draft style system it’ll never be equal. Nor should it. Pro sport isn’t equal in every facet. It would be probably more unfair if the system dictated Leinster put the time and effort into developing these youths and then when academy time comes its a totally open system.
A way of incentivising more players to move is needed but it’s natural that anyone with aspirations will want to give their home province a proper crack first. They may be pro clubs but tribal lines do still play a role in the mental and emotional side. It’s going to be guys told they’ve no future at a club or fringe internationals. Hopefully the net widens as more and more cases prove to be a success.
Not fully comfortable with an increased IRFU role in it all though. Pro14 is enough of a joke without unions deciding who plays for who on top of when they can play
Correct. The system right now is inherently unfair. It is setup in such a way that one team will benefit above all others.
While it's not going to change any time soon unfortunately, we should stop pretending like the system is good, or fair, or balanced, and recognise that it's skewed in one direction, and the owners of the teams losing out don't care enough to fix this because it's not in their interest to do so.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »The IRFU might just be the most competent and organised of any of the national rugby bodies.
And yet you are consistently highly critical of them. Bizarre.
If I were a Leinster fan I'd probably agree with you.
But I've had to suffer through the absolute ****e that the owners of my club have dragged it through the last 7 or 8 years. Screw them.0 -
If I were a Leinster fan I'd probably agree with you.
But I've had to suffer through the absolute ****e that the owners of my club have dragged it through the last 7 or 8 years. Screw them.
I think you're correct to expect better for Ulster. I also think Venjur is correct, but only because the other unions set a low bar. Which union is actually well run?0 -
Doesn't matter if it's indigenous players or not. Provinces do not have autonomy, they have limited authority over what they do, they are entirely subordinate to the will and whim of the IRFU.
The IRFU run the provinces in whatever way suits them at any given time.
"Supporting" the provinces would be giving them cash and letting them do as they please.
Ah awec, this is more nonsense. Take Ciaran Frawley for example. He went through the club system. That is funded by the IRFU, but the clubs manage their day to day affairs, including the players that come in and ultimately get selected and offered senior contracts. Leinster brought him into the set-up off their own back. The IRFU didnt call them up and tell them they were getting him. Leinster didnt call the IRFU and ask permission to bring him into the Academy.
The IRFU give Leinster funding to put towards their operating budget. They set certain ground rules and have control over whether foreign players get offered contracts or not. They dont get involved in most of the day to day stuff. They dont decide who makes it into the Academy or who of those get offered senior contracts.
If the IRFU controlled things the way you're suggesting then Munster would not have been allowed to approach Carbery as they wanted him going to Ulster. Connors wouldnt have gotten a contract with Leinster as they wanted him at Connacht. The provinces have a good deal of autonomy. Thats the only way this works because otherwise the IRFU would be drowning in player management and allocation and the relationship between the Union and the provinces would be incredibly difficult as the Union runs roughshod over the things that individual provinces want to achieve.0 -
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The Lost Sheep wrote: »
that's a real unfair and completely untrue comparison with sarries. It's completely right that leinster have first choice on the players developed within their schools and clubs. It is as fair as it can be unless you totally ignore the provincial backgrounds of people and can we totally dilute the provincial set up? Leinster will dominate and should have for all of pro rugby but didnt as they didnt have their house in order for quite some time.
Leinster keep any players they really want or cant afford to lose in nearly all situations. Anyone else can go to other provinces or abroad after that
It is nothing at all against Leinster, in fact i would say to every Leinster fan, sit back and enjoy. I will be shouting for Leinster and every Irish club in Europe, like everyone else i am sure, I think that Leinster can add another Stor to the jersey this year. I hope that they go unbeaten all season, the squad is that good.
The argument that I have is with the IRFU, and the fact that I do believe that it is not a level playing field. AWEC gets it spot on every time. The provinces are professional clubs, they are not representative teams and the employer (the IRFU) ensures that it is not a level playing field.
The Professional game across the water...... the PRL in England own the players contracts, the rules (which Sarries broke) state that to keep it fair and even over the 12 clubs, they can all spend up to a cap £7m or whatever it is per team, plus two marquee players outside that cap. All sounds fair to me. The Really big earners are the marquee players.
Here, the professional game is run by the IRFU, (Our PRL) let me call our “marquee players” centrally contracted players. They are the big earners, top Irish international players. What have we got in total 12 of them? Truth is we probably don’t know because the IRFU don’t tell anyone, but are they split evenly over the four professional clubs? 3 in each professional club? And are the budgets the same across each club here? The wage bill the same in each club here? Does the IRFU have a transparent way of showing that it is the same for each club that they represent? Or are some more equal than others? Heaven forbid that in exceptional cases some players would require so much money to keep them here that you would have to go to outside investors to part fund them, a Denis O’Brien or someone. That would be living beyond your means or outside the budget set by your governing body. But we do not have salary cap here so that is not against any rule. But is it a level playing field? I could argue that the PRL are way more transparent than we are and try to keep it the same for every club, our governing body ensure that the resources are not evenly split.
Not just Leinster though, (who have the big playing resource) Ulster not only get use of an IRFU owed stadium as a club ground, they actually got £14.5m off the British government to increase the capacity to 18k six years ago.
As i said, wonderful team Leinster, enjoy this great period in your history. The rugby they play is brilliant to watch. The best irish club squad ever i would say, and it has not happened overnight.0 -
If I were a Leinster fan I'd probably agree with you.
But I've had to suffer through the absolute ****e that the owners of my club have dragged it through the last 7 or 8 years. Screw them.
So what do you think Ulster could have done, that it isn't doing now - just with less money?
Your suggestion would weaken the national team, and that would mean a less successful national team, and that would mean less revenue and less money for Ulster.
Do you think Ulster would have been more successful with less money the last 15 years? Do you think Ulster would for some reason just be so well run outside the bubble of the IRFU that it would be highly successful on it's own?
I'm trying to understand what the end point of your thinking is.0 -
RobbieRuns wrote: »It is nothing at all against Leinster, in fact i would say to every Leinster fan, sit back and enjoy. I will be shouting for Leinster and every Irish club in Europe, like everyone else i am sure, I think that Leinster can add another Stor to the jersey this year. I hope that they go unbeaten all season, the squad is that good.
The argument that I have is with the IRFU, and the fact that I do believe that it is not a level playing field. AWEC gets it spot on every time. The provinces are professional clubs, they are not representative teams and the employer (the IRFU) ensures that it is not a level playing field.
The Professional game across the water...... the PRL in England own the players contracts, the rules (which Sarries broke) state that to keep it fair and even over the 12 clubs, they can all spend up to a cap £7m or whatever it is per team, plus two marquee players outside that cap. All sounds fair to me. The Really big earners are the marquee players.
Here, the professional game is run by the IRFU, (Our PRL) let me call our “marquee players” centrally contracted players. They are the big earners, top Irish international players. What have we got in total 12 of them? Truth is we probably don’t know because the IRFU don’t tell anyone, but are they split evenly over the four professional clubs? 3 in each professional club? And are the budgets the same across each club here? The wage bill the same in each club here? Does the IRFU have a transparent way of showing that it is the same for each club that they represent? Or are some more equal than others? Heaven forbid that in exceptional cases some players would require so much money to keep them here that you would have to go to outside investors to part fund them, a Denis O’Brien or someone. That would be living beyond your means or outside the budget set by your governing body. But we do not have salary cap here so that is not against any rule. But is it a level playing field? I could argue that the PRL are way more transparent than we are and try to keep it the same for every club, our governing body ensure that the resources are not evenly split.
Not just Leinster though, (who have the big playing resource) Ulster not only get use of an IRFU owed stadium as a club ground, they actually got £14.5m off the British government to increase the capacity to 18k six years ago.
As i said, wonderful team Leinster, enjoy this great period in your history. The rugby they play is brilliant to watch. The best irish club squad ever i would say, and it has not happened overnight.
Has anyone ever claimed that it was a level playing field? You seem to want the IRFU to artificially balance the scales, but that's just not feasible. It would involve forcing players to go places that the IRFU decide on, and ultimately giving players ultimatums. Go to this province or else. Human beings dont react well to ultimatums. We like to make our own decisions and have as much control as possible over our own lives.
It kind of shocks me how often people dont think of rugby players as human beings. Just like the 2 week break over Christmas. People complaining that human beings get what is essentially annual leave, a minimum of which they are entitled to by law. Nah, they're only there for our entertainment and should play when we say. This is basically coming from the same place.0 -
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When all is boiled down, is this just about Pienaar?0
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