Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread XI (The Finals Countdown)

Dubinusa

It's not Leinster's fault that they have the population! It's not Leinster's fault that Ulster were run by the keystone cops for a decade! An unbalanced field is common in all sports. Look at the Olympics. The U.S and China will grab 60% of the silverware! Who's fault is that?
When Munster were cleaning up not so long ago, was anyone moaning about Leinster's unfair advantage. The other provinces have benefitted too! Ulster have gotten Timoney and Greg Jones. 2 lads Leinster allowed to leave. A.O.C is another! Munster have Conway! Loughman, Oliver and Clarke in the academy!
Connacht have Daly, Conor Dean, Boyle etc.. what do Leinster do! Allow Deegan, Penny etc just to leave? Encourage them to leave, at Leinster's expense and for our rivals gain.
I don't know what the answer is! But, dumping on Leinster is ridiculous. Interestingly, St Michael's have probably turned out more pro players than any of the other provinces. That's 1 school!

Interested Observer

awec wrote: »

If I were a Leinster fan I'd probably agree with you.

But I've had to suffer through the absolute ****e that the owners of my club have dragged it through the last 7 or 8 years. Screw them.

What specifically have the IRFU done to Ulster? Replaced Pienaar with a better SH, and?

stephen_n

awec wrote: »

Doesn't matter if it's indigenous players or not. Provinces do not have autonomy, they have limited authority over what they do, they are entirely subordinate to the will and whim of the IRFU.

The IRFU run the provinces in whatever way suits them at any given time.

"Supporting" the provinces would be giving them cash and letting them do as they please.

It’s very odd for an Ulster fan to whine so much when most of the Ulster Pack is made up of Leinster players.

Buer

Are Ulster's shortcomings in recent years far more to do with the merry go round behind the scenes in Ulster Rugby? Shane Logan, Les Kiss (unless the assumption is he was forced upon Ulster?), Neil Doak, Gibbes, Humphreys leaving, the trial debacle, some questionable signings in VDM, Deysel, Ah You etc.

Laying too much blame at the door of the IRFU is a bit a creative narrative that appears to suit and we see from supporters of all provinces when things aren't going well or something goes against them.

awec

Buer wrote: »

Are Ulster's shortcomings in recent years far more to do with the merry go round behind the scenes in Ulster Rugby? Shane Logan, Les Kiss (unless the assumption is he was forced upon Ulster?), Neil Doak, Gibbes, Humphreys leaving, the trial debacle, some questionable signings in VDM, Deysel, Ah You etc.

Laying too much blame at the door of the IRFU is a bit a creative narrative that appears to suit and we see from supporters of all provinces when things aren't going well or something goes against them.

Buck stops with the owners.

I know that on this forum, when things go well it’s thanks to the IRFU, and when things go bad the IRFU have nothing to do with it, but it doesn’t really wash.

The IRFU presided over a mess at Ulster. They installed Kiss for example, who was a total disaster.

Screw them.

With all due respect, you lot haven’t a notion what it’s like to support teams unable to keep up with the best in the league, and have to sit there while your owners do fcuk all about it. It’s not a criticism of leinster, but it is telling that when anyone criticises the system so many of you feel compelled to immediately jump to it’s defence and argue that there is no way things could possibly ever change for the better.

Interested Observer

awec wrote: »

Buck stops with the owners.

I know that on this forum, when things go well it’s thanks to the IRFU, and when things go bad the IRFU have nothing to do with it, but it doesn’t really wash.

Sorry what? It's you who is saying the provinces have no autonomy and are run by the IRFU.

So by your reasoning when things go well it's the IRFU and when things go badly it's the IRFU. I don't see anyone else saying that.

awec wrote: »

With all due respect, you lot haven’t a notion what it’s like to support teams unable to keep up with the best in the league, and have to sit there while your owners do fcuk all about it. It’s not a criticism of leinster, but it is telling that when anyone criticises the system so many of you feel compelled to immediately jump to it’s defence and argue that there is no way things could possibly ever change for the better.

This is ridiculous. Do you think all the Leinster supporters here have only been following Leinster in the past 3 season? I, and I'm sure it's the same for a good few other posters, went to my first Leinster game in the late 90s/early 2000s and have been going regularly ever since. Leinster fell miles behind Munster at various points. We were all here for the MOCaplypse. So give it a rest.




Anyway Les Kiss, that's it. A highly experienced coach who had been involved in one of Ireland's best spells ever, won a slam, won a couple more 6Ns with Schmidt. Do they get any credit for bringing in McFarland btw?

Podge_irl

awec wrote: »

Buck stops with the owners.

So you want more IRFU meddling with the provinces?

salmocab

awec wrote: »

Buck stops with the owners.

I know that on this forum, when things go well it’s thanks to the IRFU, and when things go bad the IRFU have nothing to do with it, but it doesn’t really wash.

The IRFU presided over a mess at Ulster. They installed Kiss for example, who was a total disaster.

Screw them.

With all due respect, you lot haven’t a notion what it’s like to support teams unable to keep up with the best in the league, and have to sit there while your owners do fcuk all about it. It’s not a criticism of leinster, but it is telling that when anyone criticises the system so many of you feel compelled to immediately jump to it’s defence and argue that there is no way things could possibly ever change for the better.

Has anyone at all argued things could in no way be better?

aloooof

Bazzo wrote: »

Quinn Roux another one. I'm sure there are others. But international honours wouldn't be the sole carrot, there are tonnes of lads who could have faded to obscurity at Leinster but moved and became key players at other provinces, no doubt their wages and options increased accordingly.

The likes of Felix Jones and Ian Keatley, even James Downey come to mind as well.

aloooof

RobbieRuns wrote: »

The argument that I have is with the IRFU, and the fact that I do believe that it is not a level playing field. AWEC gets it spot on every time. The provinces are professional clubs, they are not representative teams and the employer (the IRFU) ensures that it is not a level playing field.

It definitely isn't a level playing field. But the bigger question then is should it be a level playing field? I'm not sure I'm convinced that it should, tbh (but am open to arguments on it). I think you need to keep a level of representation in the provinces.

awec

awec wrote: »

Buck stops with the owners.

I know that on this forum, when things go well it’s thanks to the IRFU, and when things go bad the IRFU have nothing to do with it, but it doesn’t really wash.

The IRFU presided over a mess at Ulster. They installed Kiss for example, who was a total disaster.

Screw them.

With all due respect, you lot haven’t a notion what it’s like to support teams unable to keep up with the best in the league, and have to sit there while your owners do fcuk all about it. It’s not a criticism of leinster, but it is telling that when anyone criticises the system so many of you feel compelled to immediately jump to it’s defence and argue that there is no way things could possibly ever change for the better.

In the nicest possible way I think you've completely lost your perspective on this.

You are shifting far too much of the blame away from Ulster rugby onto the IRFU and you are doing it based on a huge amount of presumption.

Furthermore you seem to be suggesting that people defending the IRFU are doing so because of some weird adulation. Do you think we're all idiot sheep with no ability to form independent opinions?

I think the IRFU has done a very good job developing the sport of rugby on the Island of Ireland. I think they've done a lot more with a lot less than other rugby unions.

I don't blame the IRFU for Matt O'Connor. I don't blame the IRFU for Leinster being unable to find a replacement and resorting to a recently retired player. The IRFU didn't force Leo to reach out to Stuart Lancaster, that was Leo's idea.

I think Ulster rugby has gone through a stagnant period because talent development fell off and the clubs governance was dire under Logan. Did the IRFU force Logan on Ulster rugby?

Maybe outside of the IRFU recruitment restrictions Ulster could have gone out and spent on a heap of signings. French and English teams do that and are still dross.

Do you think Ulster rugby would be Saracens v2.0 outside the IRFU? Because it's entirely possible you would be Ealing Trailfinders instead.

I find your hate of the IRFU completely misguided to be honest. It's the one issue you post about that I completely disagree with you on.

molloyjh

awec wrote: »

I know that on this forum, when things go well it’s thanks to the IRFU, and when things go bad the IRFU have nothing to do with it, but it doesn’t really wash.

It is impossible to have any form of discussion when presented with total garbage like this. It really is. Leinster are where they are because in the mid 00s they realised they needed to change. And they did. They took a punt on Cheika and started to address their shortcomings. Leinster are to credit for where they are now. Not the IRFU.

Similarly up in Ulster, they were incredibly badly run for a long time and that showed on the field. In recent years theyve started to get their act together and that is reaping rewards now. Credit has to go to Ulster for that. And I'm genuinely delighted to see it. Fair play to them. I dont applaud the IRFU for what has gone on up there just like I didnt blame them when things were going badly. Either in Ulster or Leinster.

Of course it's far easier to attribute garbage logic to those who disagree with you so you don't have to face the blatant issues with the opinion you hold. And on that note I'm done on this one. Like every other time this, or similar, has been discussed it is inevitably going absolutely nowhere.

Former Former

aloooof wrote: »

The likes of Felix Jones and Ian Keatley, even James Downey come to mind as well.

Honestly though, they are more proof of the fundamental flaw in shifting players around than of the benefit. No disrespect to the guys named above but they weren't really top-level players, with the exception of Jones maybe.

The problem is that the best Leinster players will stay in Leinster and the guys who move on are those who don't make the grade (for the most part).
The only possible outcome of that is a widening of the gap between Leinster and the other provinces.

The IRFU should be focussed on improving the conveyor belt of talent at the other 3 provinces, because none of them are remotely doing enough. Moving guys from province to province should only be an exceptional case and not the norm.

Former Former

Former Former wrote: »

The IRFU should be focussed on improving the conveyor belt of talent at the other 3 provinces, because none of them are remotely doing enough. Moving guys from province to province should only be an exceptional case and not the norm.

Keith Wood was saying the same thing. He said it was great that Leinster was producing a surplus so that players going to other provinces were eligible to the national team - but that the provinces needed to retain an identity also.

He pointed to the recruitment of a NZ coach to develop schools and club rugby in Munster as a long overdue step, and suggested they needed 10 more of them.

The Dublin schools have the money to develop talent independently which is a huge advantage and is why things are as they are - but proper, serious and long term investment in schools and clubs can mitigate the gap.

Yeah_Right

Buer wrote: »

Are Ulster's shortcomings in recent years far more to do with the merry go round behind the scenes in Ulster Rugby? Shane Logan, Les Kiss (unless the assumption is he was forced upon Ulster?), Neil Doak, Gibbes, Humphreys leaving, the trial debacle, some questionable signings in VDM, Deysel, Ah You etc.

Laying too much blame at the door of the IRFU is a bit a creative narrative that appears to suit and we see from supporters of all provinces when things aren't going well or something goes against them.

Shut up Bu...... wait. That actually is quite accurate. Carry on.

Former Former

Former Former wrote: »

The IRFU should be focussed on improving the conveyor belt of talent at the other 3 provinces, because none of them are remotely doing enough. Moving guys from province to province should only be an exceptional case and not the norm.

And I don't mean that the other provinces should be matching Leinster's output, I know that's not realistic, but they have to do better.

molloyjh

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Keith Wood was saying the same thing. He said it was great that Leinster was producing a surplus so that players going to other provinces were eligible to the national team - but that the provinces needed to retain an identity also.

He pointed to the recruitment of a NZ coach to develop schools and club rugby in Munster as a long overdue step, and suggested they needed 10 more of them.

The Dublin schools have the money to develop talent independently which is a huge advantage and is why things are as they are - but proper, serious and long term investment in schools and clubs can mitigate the gap.

That money needs to come from somewhere though, which is the problem. There are enough things in Irish rugby that already need funding. It is something that should be done, but who funds it?

Buer

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Shut up Bu...... wait. That actually is quite accurate. Carry on.

It's ok. You can say it.

Shut up Burkie1203.

Interested Observer

The last Ulster CEO by all accounts was a bit of a disaster, the new guy seems to be doing a much better job.

And apparently Bryn Cunningham, and not anyone sitting in an office in D4, was the driving force behind hiring McFarland. How that's possible when the provinces all just do what they're told I am not sure.

whatawaster

awec wrote: »

Buck stops with the owners.

I know that on this forum, when things go well it’s thanks to the IRFU, and when things go bad the IRFU have nothing to do with it, but it doesn’t really wash.

The IRFU presided over a mess at Ulster. They installed Kiss for example, who was a total disaster.

Screw them.

With all due respect, you lot haven’t a notion what it’s like to support teams unable to keep up with the best in the league, and have to sit there while your owners do fcuk all about it. It’s not a criticism of leinster, but it is telling that when anyone criticises the system so many of you feel compelled to immediately jump to it’s defence and argue that there is no way things could possibly ever change for the better.

The IRFU may be the ultimate "owners" of Ulster, but they don't run it day to day, and they are not hands on in the way owners of English rugby clubs or soccer clubs might be. There are layers of management who are extremely responsible for the mess Ulster have been in the last few years.

You might say "screw them", but have they not been extremely good in the last few years in making sure Ulster get the players they need? Piutau, Coetzee, Moore, Murphy, Cooney, McGrath, Burns etc. Ulster have been backed to the hilt

As for the appointment of Kiss - it didn't turn out well, but he was a highly regarded coach and it was a sensible appointment given everything we knew at the time.

antietam1

awec wrote: »

Correct. The system right now is inherently unfair. It is setup in such a way that one team will benefit above all others.

While it's not going to change any time soon unfortunately, we should stop pretending like the system is good, or fair, or balanced, and recognise that it's skewed in one direction, and the owners of the teams losing out don't care enough to fix this because it's not in their interest to do so.

It's not unfair, Munster and Ulster have not done enough.
De Alende and Snyman probably on the way.
Coaches more or less driven away.
Taking in Leinster players instead of developing your own players is not what the IRFU need.
People are looking for shortcuts to success.
Unfair? that is so childish by everyone using it.

Richie_Rich89

Dubinusa wrote: »

It's not Leinster's fault that they have the population! It's not Leinster's fault that Ulster were run by the keystone cops for a decade! An unbalanced field is common in all sports. Look at the Olympics. The U.S and China will grab 60% of the silverware! Who's fault is that?
When Munster were cleaning up not so long ago, was anyone moaning about Leinster's unfair advantage. The other provinces have benefitted too! Ulster have gotten Timoney and Greg Jones. 2 lads Leinster allowed to leave. A.O.C is another! Munster have Conway! Loughman, Oliver and Clarke in the academy!
Connacht have Daly, Conor Dean, Boyle etc.. what do Leinster do! Allow Deegan, Penny etc just to leave? Encourage them to leave, at Leinster's expense and for our rivals gain.
I don't know what the answer is! But, dumping on Leinster is ridiculous. Interestingly, St Michael's have probably turned out more pro players than any of the other provinces. That's 1 school!

You often see it. People trying to make out that a successful team has an unfair advantage. When the Lions were doing well in Super Rugby, some complained they had an unfair advantage from getting to play at altitude in Jo'burg. Where were those complaints when they were rubbish? Leo Cullen claimed Toulon were "playing by slightly different rules" to everyone else during their heyday https://www.the42.ie/leo-cullen-leinster-toulon-champions-cup-2512624-Dec2015/. They're still playing by these different rules now, but can't even qualify for Europe, so no-ones talking about it. You had Phil Kearns carping about the Jaguares, saying they shouldn't be allowed in Super Rugby because they were essentially a national team. Where were his criticisms when they were losing?

aloooof

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

You often see it. People trying to make out that a successful team has an unfair advantage. When the Lions were doing well in Super Rugby, some complained they had an unfair advantage from getting to play at altitude in Jo'burg. Where were those complaints when they were rubbish? Leo Cullen claimed Toulon were "playing by slightly different rules" to everyone else during their heyday https://www.the42.ie/leo-cullen-leinster-toulon-champions-cup-2512624-Dec2015/. They're still playing by these different rules now, but can't even qualify for Europe, so no-ones talking about it. You had Phil Kearns carping about the Jaguares, saying they shouldn't be allowed in Super Rugby because they were essentially a national team. Where were his criticisms when they were losing?

Again, it's not this black and white. Unsuccessful teams can have still those advantages but just be failing to make full use of it. Like Leinster in the early era of professionalism, tbh.

Richie_Rich89

aloooof wrote: »

Again, it's not this black and white. Unsuccessful teams can have still those advantages but just be failing to make full use of it. Like Leinster in the early era of professionalism, tbh.

Sure, I'm not saying these advantages don't exist. I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy of only bringing them up when a team is doing well.

Sport is inherently unequal. It's up to any team to try to maximise their competitive advantages and minimise their competitive disadvantages.

antietam1

Leinster's relative success is all cyclical if the "rich parent schools" have a bad season or two can Leinster have players returned.

Larbre34

Sounds like a few Dublin GAA arguments starting to creep in, arguments I am inclined to treat with equal disdain.

The Lost Sheep

Former Former wrote: »

And I don't mean that the other provinces should be matching Leinster's output, I know that's not realistic, but they have to do better.

of course it would be great they could do better but their progression of their own players ie players within their geographic area progressing to their pro team is very good compared to a lot of professional teams. It takes quite some time to get players from newer areas to pro level or at least consistent numbers. For example Jack o Donoghue was first pro player from Waterford in years. Murray kinsella was one of the few beforehand in pro era
Since then there has been Stephen McMahon and Tom ahearn in space of a few short years.

antietam1 wrote: »

It's not unfair, Munster and Ulster have not done enough.
De Alende and Snyman probably on the way.
Coaches more or less driven away.
Taking in Leinster players instead of developing your own players is not what the IRFU need.
People are looking for shortcuts to success.
Unfair? that is so childish by everyone using it.

very easy to say they havent done enough co lared to leinster. Players from beyond their own province are only really taken when alternatives within province aren't there. To accuse provinces of not wanting trying to do work themselves isnt fair. Yes here is changes needed. Sure I've been saying that since I joined boards about 9 years ......

crisco10

So eh, apparently there is a match this weekend, a European one too. :-)

As usual with the "smaller" French squads, their team announcement will be telling as to their attitude. But I saw in the IT during the week that they didn't really rotate much in their league games over the Christmas period (used 30 players over 3 games, compared to Leinster's 44). So it wouldn't be unlikely for them to rotate heavily this week.

In terms of Leinster XV, it would be surprising if it wasn't similar to the below?

1. Healy
2. Cronin
3. Furlong
4. Dev
5. Fardy
6. Rhys
7. Josh
8. Doris
9. McGrath
10. Byrne
11. Lowe
12. Henshaw
13. Ringrose
14. D Kearney
15. Larmour

16. Tracy
17. Byrne
18. Porter
19. Moloney
20. Deegan/Connors
21. JGP
22. Frawley ? O'Brien?
23. Rob Kearney

I'm assuming Ryan won't be fit.

durkadurka

Barring injuries they won’t tell us about I’d say that’s the squad. Bookies have us -32 on this so they assume Lyon are sending the fourth years.

molloyjh

crisco10 wrote: »

So eh, apparently there is a match this weekend, a European one too. :-)

As usual with the "smaller" French squads, their team announcement will be telling as to their attitude. But I saw in the IT during the week that they didn't really rotate much in their league games over the Christmas period (used 30 players over 3 games, compared to Leinster's 44). So it wouldn't be unlikely for them to rotate heavily this week.

In terms of Leinster XV, it would be surprising if it wasn't similar to the below?

1. Healy
2. Cronin
3. Furlong
4. Dev
5. Fardy
6. Rhys
7. Josh
8. Doris
9. McGrath
10. Byrne
11. Lowe
12. Henshaw
13. Ringrose
14. D Kearney
15. Larmour

16. Tracy
17. Byrne
18. Porter
19. Moloney
20. Deegan/Connors
21. JGP
22. Frawley ? O'Brien?
23. Rob Kearney

I'm assuming Ryan won't be fit.

Yeah very close to that I'd imagine. Deegan at 20, Frawley at 22 and I wouldnt be surprised to see Tomane at 23. We can manage without Ryan this weekend and Molony has been going well so it would be good to see him getting some game time in Europe.