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One sided intimacy
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Apologies I replied to the thread earlier and the message failed to post for some reason.
Thank you for the constructive messages, particularly Matthew for defending me and cyclepath-I've ordered that book already. That's my next step.
To answer a few things-we have a cleaner, I work full time, my wife took a leave of absence two years ago and then had it extended.
With regard to not believing my wife's reasons-the reasons I have listed are the most common things she has stated during the discussions we have on the matter. She might say it's due to her being too tired this week, if we've another discussion next week it might be because of housework. She's inconsistent with her reasons. Secondly, and much more importantly, I don't believe her reasons but I have given her the benefit of the doubt and acted on them as if I did. I was against the cleaner (it's too middle class for my liking) but I gave it the go ahead, likewise with the extension on the leave of absence. Plus I would have thought that we always shared the housework fairly reasonably, obviously since she's been at home full time she has done more than me but when we are both here I know I do my fair share. I'm home more than most people in full time employment.
The 'mammying'- Some household chores she does exclusively, some I do exclusively. She does the ironing, hence I do from time to time ask her where a shirt is. I do all the DIY, if she asks me to change a bulb I don't consider it 'daddying.' I would have thought that's fairly normal.
I've suggested going to see a therapist but it was dismissed. It's not something I'd be comfortable with either but I would have been willing to try.
Lastly, thank you again for the constructive advice. I'm going to start with that book and see where that takes me.
I would like to say that some of the replies seemed to be a little sexist I'm sorry to say. I was encouraged to post having read a similar thread where the OP was female and 100% of the replies were positive and constructive. One of the posters deduced that I was an 'absent father and husband.' Others said that I expect more sex because I started doing a bit of housework which is untrue. I just want my wife to want to have sex with me.
To be fair, you didn’t explain any of that in your OP. Of course that would have changed the nature of what was said.0 -
Op, has your wife ever been enthusiastic about intimacy. If not, she maybe asexual or on the asexual spectrum and not know it. Thats why you gut is telling you something is not right.0
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From your most recent response, which confirmed my suspicions and backed up everything I was arguing, the course of action for you should be as follows, seeing as you want to stay with her no matter what.
Get back to the gym. Find a plan and stick to it. Eat properly and get back into shape. Get yourself a personal trainer if you have to. The important part is that you will look better, feel better and be dedicated. She will find these things more attractive.
Secondly, find a new hobby. Commit to it and try and be consistent with it. Have something you are passionate about, for you, away from the marriage.
Lastly, make yourself a little less available. I'm not advocating abandoning your marital responsibilities, but have plans maybe 3-4 nights a month where previously you wouldn't. These plans should not include your wife.
Lastly, do not initiate sex again. Cuddle, kiss whatever if you want. Have fun and love each other but do not initiate sex. Only have sex if she initiates for the near future.
Once you do all these things, you'll have so much going on that the intimacy won't actually be a big deal for you anymore. You'll be improving yourself in every way, with no expectation of anything from her.
What will happen as a result of all this is, and I guarantee it, that she will see her husband as someone who has lots going on, as someone who is improving himself physically, as someone who is dedicated and as someone who is not needy for affection.
There is no amount of housework you can do, no amount of talking you can do that will reignite attraction in her. Do the above and I promise you'll see a change.0 -
Fair play to you for trying so hard for so long.
Sounds like you've done all you can. Very hard to see what more you can do.
Sex with someone who isn't in to it wouldn't be an option for me. I'd rather not have any at all.
Give her A letter similar to your post explaining how much you are struggling with the issues. It might focus her thoughts and maybe realise how much your struggling and how much effort you've made.0 -
Join Date:Posts: 25439
Outside of the bedroom what's your relationship like? On a scale of flatmates you kinda know to mad about each other?
I can only speak for myself but bedroom interest waned for me when stuff outside the bedroom became a problem. Things like a partner being grumpy or snappy at me for external reasons, or only noticing I exist when he was feeling horny for example.
For me, bedroom intimacy comes from being emotionally close to my partner. We putter around the kitchen in the evening or on weekends maybe doing housework together and talk and listen to each other like mates. If he's had a sh!te day at work I listen and give him encouragement or suggestions. I'll tell him about [annoying thing] that happened at work or a family issue. That kind of thing. Then, because we are best friends, and he's the person I trust and talk to about the big and not so big stuff that's on my mind the fondness, attraction and physical attraction follow on from that. But if we were just like flatmates passing in the night then there's no way my libido would be even off the ground.
It's all very well suggesting you do more housework, or date nights, but to do it with the expectation of sex in exchange would probably have the opposite effect, similarly booking a fancy suite away for a night - that implies an expectation of sex when you get there and again, if you are not feeling horny yourself that kind of gesture can feel very...pressurised and transactional, I guess? It can work in some cases where it's just about carving out some couple time or a bit more equality in chores but it's not a cure-all for every sexless marriage.
Basically, you fancy her a lot and you want her to fancy you back. To do that it might need you to take the focus off any kind of physical intimacy and reconnect emotionally as friends and see if something grows from there.
It may be that you've got a great friendship and my suggestions might be of no use to you and if so I hope that others come along with suggestions that better fit for you though.0 -
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matthewmurdock wrote: »Once you do all these things, you'll have so much going on that the intimacy won't actually be a big deal for you anymore. You'll be improving yourself in every way, with no expectation of anything from her.
What will happen as a result of all this is, and I guarantee it, that she will see her husband as someone who has lots going on, as someone who is improving himself physically, as someone who is dedicated and as someone who is not needy for affection.
There is no amount of housework you can do, no amount of talking you can do that will reignite attraction in her. Do the above and I promise you'll see a change.
This is potentially poor advice in that it's not how many women work. Many of us (not all let me stress but many) need to be doing reasonably well in their own life in order to naturally want sex. If I'm tired, depressed, discouraged, stressed, helpless, in pain or discomfort, my sex drive is just not there. There is nothing there to tap into, it's just gone, erased. But when I'm happy, have good headspace and everything is going reasonably well, I'll jump his bones whenever and he won't even see it coming. And it's quite a popular scenario as the saying "men must have sex to be happy and women must be happy to have sex" attests. Not universal, but popular.
Therefore it mightn't matter if the OP is Henry Cavill with brilliant hobbies. If the drive is not there because of how his wife feels about her life or their family or herself, it's not there. The OP describes her a person who is tired and stressed overall, she gives him some good granular reasons but they don't convince him because he tried to fix them and it doesn't work. But what she is really flagging is that she is overall unhappy, in a rut or maybe depressed, or not coping with children under 5 all day. Unless this improves overall for her and she gets herself to a better place, her sex drive won't necessarily respond to whatever the OP does on his side. She will do her duty as she does now but she can only regain enthusiasm for sex when she regains enthusiasm for life.
OP what you were trying to do going to counselling was probably the best strategy; can you work on it more? Can you make it about discussing your lives overall rather than just her sex drive so that it's not her being put on the spot?0 -
I'm a woman and have to echo what some of the posters have said here. I feel sexy when sex isn't demanded or expected of me, when the pressure is off and we're just having fun and often when sex is completely off the cards for whatever reason is what actually drives me wild. So...try that? I'd have to agree that booking a hotel room or having a planned night ie roses everywhere can make me feel under pressure to perform....and if my head isn't in the right place, and especially my heart, then it just stresses me out.
Try go back to some dating activities or just spending time connecting again. Give without expecting to receive in terms of physical affection. Give her a really long hug or a massage and even if she tried to initiate sex, diall it back and let her know it doesn't always have to go to the next step. Once the pressure is off, it usually does wonders for my libido.
I'd really recommend you both read some books about it and see a counsellor together.. understanding how each approach sex and love can be eye opening. It really is true that a woman has to feel happy first to have sex and certainly for me anyway, how I felt about my relationship was directly linked to how sexy things were. Good luck, and maybe frame things with your wife in terms of wanting to connect again rather than wanting sex, using the right language of love for the other can be important to how she perceives the message. Go read up about language of love men and women use before having those conversations with her0 -
There is a whole sub-reddit on this called deadbedrooms, this is not about doing your fair share around the house, that's called chore sex, or anything else. She's gone off sex or sex with you for some reason. Is there somebody else. It could be medical, personal or anything. Why did she take leave of absence, any history of depression. I think you need to get rid of the kids for an evening and have a converstaion with her. Try to remain calm, maybe don't do it all in one go. But explain to her that you are un happy and why and that you want to fix this but that she has to meet you half way and she needs to take this serisously as it won't go away. Couples that play together say together.
I'd be pushing for counseling and visit to GP. In the mean time go out and get fit, do things that make you happy improve yourself. Don't sit around the house being pissed off. You are paying for a cleaner, working so that she doesn't have to. Maybe suggest she goes back to work part time so that you don't have to work so much...0 -
A lot of good advise here and also some cliched stuff that probably won't work. The good thing is that you still do fancy her and love her and hopefully she feels that way too but it's just not to the fore right now. Try telling her she's beautiful - just in passing and with a smile - be sweet and say aloud the things you think when you see her. Maybe even tell her straight out that you want to be more tactile and loving but not with pressure for it to lead to anything. Hold hands and kiss her and give her a hug when she comes in the door. If she knows it's just purely out of love and affection then she'll relax about it. All women dread that feeling of - OK, he wants to kiss me, fine, oh - now he's got his hand on my butt. So it wasn't just a quick innocent kiss - he was thinking about sex all along. Sometimes we just want the hug or the kiss. Let her believe that she can have easy simple closeness with you that doesn't have to mean sex every time. Sometimes it will lead to that but it shouldn't always have to as it'll make her feel she's disappointing you all the time so she'll shy away from any contact.
I have to say though that I think she's wrong to make you feel bad after sex by moaning about how she'll be tired now in the morning etc. That's a very bad sign. She should be very happy afterwards and glad she did it - not bitching about it. I'd worry about that attitude.0 -
This woman does not fancy you any more. Its like asking her to be intimate to a random non attractive stranger.
Its over.0 -
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The telling thing for me is that your wife never once complained about you not doing any work, just used it as an excuse for not wanting sex.
Sounds to me like she would be perfectly happy, or at least content, to never have sex again. That should tell you everything you need to know about the state it your relationship.
It's done. There is really no coming back from this. She isn't interested and never will be. You need to accept that and decide next what you want to do.0 -
Seems to me you really have done all you can in response to her reasons for not wanting to be intimate with you and nothing has changed.
Sadly, I too think you have no other options but to accept that she will never never change and this is your lot. How does someone come back from having an extremely low sex drive? Maybe a sex therapist will work? Have you asked her does she fancy you anymore?
Maybe as also suggested get into a gym with extra effort put into your appearance to see if that works.
While I know long term relationships have lulls, I have had my own LTR but I have required regular intimacy even if he wasn't ripped or looking anything close to a hottie that day!! It's a basic human need and the glue in a relationship regardless of time spent together. But that's just my opinion regarding the gym point!
Hope things get better for you anyway and watch out for your self esteem in all of this.0 -
OP.
We have to be honest here. Your wife obviously has a lower sex drive.
She is going to have to compromise and so will you.
Basically agree a set no of times you would like to have sex.
I know men don't like to think of women having sex as a duty etc. But sure remember we all like when we get into it!
And we have to be honest. Sometimes it is a duty. Or something you do for the other person.
Yes you do have to help in other ways. Do things that are important to her. But you should be doing that anyway!
I think a lot of people have unrealistic expectations of what a woman's sex drive should be.
Ask her how you can be a better husband. And give her a REALISTIC of how often you would like to have sex with her.
What about twice a week etc to start off with at least? One can be a date night.
Women don't feel very sexy when underappreciated and tired. Pamper her a little.
OP you have to work for it even in marriage ...sorry but just being honest.
Maybe you should both go to bed earlier too. And go more activities together. Build intimacy. Cuddle her more.
But i mean she has to agree to a concrete idea of how much sex you want ....that you guys can keep to
It might not be romantic but well ...that's real life.
Ideally she should have realized this herself and come up with an unspoken schedule in her head to be intimate even when she didn't really feel like it. As you should for things that mean a lot for her.0 -
ILoveYourVibes wrote: »OP.
We have to be honest here. Your wife obviously has a lower sex drive.
She is going to have to compromise and so will you.
Basically agree a set no of times you would like to have sex.
I know men don't like to think of women having sex as a duty etc. But sure remember we all like when we get into it!
And we have to be honest. Sometimes it is a duty. Or something you do for the other person.
Yes you do have to help in other ways. Do things that are important to her. But you should be doing that anyway!
I think a lot of people have unrealistic expectations of what a woman's sex drive should be.
Ask her how you can be a better husband. And give her a REALISTIC of how often you would like to have sex with her.
What about twice a week etc to start off with at least? One can be a date night.
Women don't feel very sexy when underappreciated and tired. Pamper her a little.
OP you have to work for it even in marriage ...sorry but just being honest.
Maybe you should both go to bed earlier too. And go more activities together. Build intimacy. Cuddle her more.
But i mean she has to agree to a concrete idea of how much sex you want ....that you guys can keep to
It might not be romantic but well ...that's real life.
Ideally she should have realized this herself and come up with an unspoken schedule in her head to be intimate even when she didn't really feel like it. As you should for things that mean a lot for her.
Can't see this working tbh.0 -
How is your wife's behaviour in general OP? You say she's on a leave of absence from work, is this due to a specific reason? Could she be suffering from something behind the scenes and a low sex drive becoming a symptom of this?0
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Thank you for the constructive responses, particularly to cyclepath (I will buy the book) matthew and lozenges and to others who have defended me, which I'll come to in a minute.
this is quite a telling answer OP. Are you taking into account the responses who are not defending you, or are you doing any self reflection at all? If not, your whole asking here is quite useless and I'm not sure you will get to the core of your problems only taking into account the posts defending you. But then I'm not sure whether you want to get to the core of the problems at all.
You repeatingly tell you not believing your wife what she says. Do you think that's the way to go in a relationship, or how come you think this? Has she a history of lying to you?
In your replies you are just defending yourself too, no sign of taking into account the brilliant advice and thoughts written here.
Anyway, I agree with posters this relationship is doomed to fail but I'm not sure you are able to be in a mature relationship with anybody longterm, hence my advice to do some self reflection on yourself/visit a counsellor.0 -
No one suggested she should go to a gym.
Perhaps that would give her a lift mentally and make her feel more attractive and give her more energy. Staying at home can be boring and depressing.
If it’s a mismatched libido you need to reach a compromise, but things were ok at the start.
I read some where, what about the little stuff like Hugs and hand holding etc ... has that stopped ?
This all can lead to a break up OP so do your best, it’s not a lost cause ...
Def go to the gym / cycle etc and get fit, good for your mental and physical health
Encourage her to do the same
Consider councelling but maybe a holiday might be better first ...
Ask relatives if the my can babysit the kid and have a date night like you used to ?0 -
OP, unless there is a genuine desire for change on her part, nothing will change.
Not only does she not feel enthusiastic about sex with you, she's not bothered about becoming enthusiastic about sex with you.
It can be crushing knowing that the person you desire so much will go days, weeks even, without thinking about you in the same way, and even worse, doesn't see any issue with that.
You have my sympathies and I think that a lot of the stuff about doing more around the house is a wild goose chase as it so often is.0 -
Thespoofer wrote: »Can't see this working tbh.
Maybe not. But if it doesn't then its not really going to change.
She isn't suddenly going to change unless you get her to agree to something like a marriage contract etc.
You have to be concrete about your needs.
If it doesn't work then you accept things as they are ..or he leaves.No one suggested she should go to a gym.
Perhaps that would give her a lift mentally and make her feel more attractive and give her more energy. Staying at home can be boring and depressing.
might work
but can you get her to go to a gym?0 -
this is quite a telling answer OP. Are you taking into account the responses who are not defending you, or are you doing any self reflection at all? If not, your whole asking here is quite useless and I'm not sure you will get to the core of your problems only taking into account the posts defending you. But then I'm not sure whether you want to get to the core of the problems at all.
You repeatingly tell you not believing your wife what she says. Do you think that's the way to go in a relationship, or how come you think this? Has she a history of lying to you?
In your replies you are just defending yourself too, no sign of taking into account the brilliant advice and thoughts written here.
Anyway, I agree with posters this relationship is doomed to fail but I'm not sure you are able to be in a mature relationship with anybody longterm, hence my advice to do some self reflection on yourself/visit a counsellor.
Many of these responses amounted to an attack on the OP based on prejudice and not what was written in the op. His response there was perfectly justified.
Yet again the OP is being asked to find fault in himself despite being very detailed, reasonable and balanced in his responses. From what he has written, there is little more he can do.
You say he is not able to be in a mature relationship with anyone? That is an incredible comment to make based on nothing whatsoever. Based on him pulling his weight, giving her chance after chance, trying to talk, recommending a counsellor and saying he is willing to stay in the relationship without sex.
Some of the responses in this thread are disgraceful.1 -
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OP, all this talking about mismatched libidos, she will not change and so on and you asking yourself what's the matter, that she's lying blabla, it's really hard to take.
She told you very clearly whats's the matter: SHE'S YOUR MAMMY, YOU ARE USING HER AS A MAMMY SUBSTITUTE and as already pointed out numerous times, that's killing any erotic feeling for most women. If you can't understand that, not believing this, as said, no ground for changes and salvation of the relationship is there.
When a woman says this, she means it and she's not making this up! she's probably enduring this for the last 3 years and the point of being fed up is reached. Instead of taking it serious, you dismiss it , I quote from your first post:
My instinctive reaction to all of these reasons was to dismiss them as a cover for something she doesn't want to tell me.
What do you think she is not telling you???
You also don't tell much about her position, whether she's working or how you go on about daily routines before she mentioned being the mammy and before you started your 'changes'. From reading your posts my guess is you have a traditional set up like in the 1950's, she's the wife, hence staying at home, raising the kids, doing the house work, cooking, cleaning, all the stuff day in day out. You are going to work earning the money.
Your comparison, you are doing the -DIY in the house and it's not called daddying- her is quite telling also. Doing occasional DIY in the house like changing a light bulb or doing other stuff you might even enjoy is not comparable to raising kids and the daily house work routine mentioned above. Why don't you iron your shirts for a change? See how much 'fun' that is. And yes, she can also change a light bulb or doing other DIY.
It seems you are stuck in this old fashioned set up from the 50's but we have 2020 and women don't take this sh**t anymore. kids, housework, cooking, cleaning and being available for sex whenever the husband wants it. ridiculous.
And now, she told you what's up, you changed your behaviour, helping in the household, getting out with the kids but obviously just to get sex. Don't you think she sees through this?
Did you read Neyites post? this couple is a team! can you imagine what it is or means man and woman being a team?0 -
OP, all this talking about mismatched libidos, she will not change and so on and you asking yourself what's the matter, that she's lying blabla, it's really hard to take.
She told you very clearly whats's the matter: SHE'S YOUR MAMMY, YOU ARE USING HER AS A MAMMY SUBSTITUTE and as already pointed out numerous times, that's killing any erotic feeling for most women. If you can't understand that, not believing this, as said, no ground for changes and salvation of the relationship is there.
When a woman says this, she means it and she's not making this up! she's probably enduring this for the last 3 years and the point of being fed up is reached. Instead of taking it serious, you dismiss it , I quote from your first post:
My instinctive reaction to all of these reasons was to dismiss them as a cover for something she doesn't want to tell me.
What do you think she is not telling you???
You also don't tell much about her position, whether she's working or how you go on about daily routines before she mentioned being the mammy and before you started your 'changes'. From reading your posts my guess is you have a traditional set up like in the 1950's, she's the wife, hence staying at home, raising the kids, doing the house work, cooking, cleaning, all the stuff day in day out. You are going to work earning the money.
Your comparison, you are doing the -DIY in the house and it's not called daddying- her is quite telling also. Doing occasional DIY in the house like changing a light bulb or doing other stuff you might even enjoy is not comparable to raising kids and the daily house work routine mentioned above. Why don't you iron your shirts for a change? See how much 'fun' that is. And yes, she can also change a light bulb or doing other DIY.
It seems you are stuck in this old fashioned set up from the 50's but we have 2020 and women don't take this sh**t anymore. kids, housework, cooking, cleaning and being available for sex whenever the husband wants it. ridiculous.
And now, she told you what's up, you changed your behaviour, helping in the household, getting out with the kids but obviously just to get sex. Don't you think she sees through this?
Did you read Neyites post? this couple is a team! can you imagine what it is or means man and woman being a team?
All this is totally true. He needs to do that whether or not there is sex though.0 -
There is a lot of naivety on this thread I would wonder the age and life experience of some of the posters. I think the OPs situation is very common and just part of life with a long term partner that has had kids to rear and mortgages to pay and jobs to keep down, 20 + years together here 4 kids 2 jobs and a small farm, finding time for a bit of love making is very difficult.0
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There is a lot of naivety on this thread I would wonder the age and life experience of some of the posters. I think the OPs situation is very common and just part of life with a long term partner that has had kids to rear and mortgages to pay and jobs to keep down, 20 + years together here 4 kids 2 jobs and a small farm, finding time for a bit of love making is very difficult.
Its the norm. Its more than common.
And the man wanting it and the woman not wanting it is normal too. Its average.
Society gives men unrealistic expectations of sex.
Both parties have to learn to compromise.0 -
I don’t know how long or energetic anyone else’s lovemaking is, but I find a lot can be achieved in just 10 minutes.There is a lot of naivety on this thread I would wonder the age and life experience of some of the posters. I think the OPs situation is very common and just part of life with a long term partner that has had kids to rear and mortgages to pay and jobs to keep down, 20 + years together here 4 kids 2 jobs and a small farm, finding time for a bit of love making is very difficult.0 -
There is a lot of naivety on this thread I would wonder the age and life experience of some of the posters. I think the OPs situation is very common and just part of life with a long term partner that has had kids to rear and mortgages to pay and jobs to keep down, 20 + years together here 4 kids 2 jobs and a small farm, finding time for a bit of love making is very difficult.
Bet you find time for brushing your teeth, watching tv etc. if you don't want to do something its very easy not to find time for it. You always here people say the same about exercise.0 -
It seems you are stuck in this old fashioned set up from the 50's but we have 2020 and women don't take this sh**t anymore. kids, housework, cooking, cleaning and being available for sex whenever the husband wants it. ridiculous.
I genuinely don't know how you are getting this from the OP's posts.0 -
Tara- I'm not looking for an exchange-sex for housework. I don't expect anything in return for anything else. I've always believed myself to be a modern husband, I do most of the cooking for example, I've tried harder in response to the reasons she gave, despite already feeling as though I was pulling my weight.
I think people are jumping on the housework thing and assuming I'm the Bull McCabe. My wife did give other reasons which nobody has mentioned since my first post.
For the people saying that this is the norm, is it really?
Once in five years she has initiated things.0 -
Mod warning:
There is a serious issue with the standard of posting in this thread. I've deleted a number which fall below the standard expected in this forum.
The chit-chat and one-liners all stop now. If you consider yourself to be absolutely hilarious, don't waste your precious talents here in PI. It's not the place for it.
Any further posts which do not offer the OP constructive advice will be actioned.0 -
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Op I think some people here on this thread have been very unfair to you.
We all have different types of relationships + people shouldn't make judgements on who should do what chores etc. Intimacy is an important part of a marriage.
You really need to get counselling. You have both tried to communicate to each other your issues but it doesn't seem to be working out for either of you.
I have just watched Marriage Story + its heartbreaking what happens when a couple with a child separate. Get her to watch this with you if she wont agree to counselling + it might be the wake up call she needs to fight for her marriage.0
This discussion has been closed.
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